3076R Install

[InlineTwin]

K04 @ stock power is about 27 lb/min (I pulled this from my dyno result at peak HP), the 3076R max flow is about 52.5 lb/min based on the compressor map.

 

[Koenig]

There is a difference when you look at PSI versus CFM... 18 PSI is 18 PSI, HOWEVER, 18 PSI at 800CFM is much different than 18 PSI at 2000 CFM... I believe this is what he is trying to tell you.

Yes but they're talking about people saying 18 psi is not 18 psi

pounds per square inch (psi) is just that.... when something is 18 psi, you can not make it more....... it is 18 pounds in that square inch, just cause it's flowing more does not make it more pounds in a square inch....... it's physics, which is what people were trying to explain.

I think it would have been best if someone used the phrase "a pound is a pound, the world around"

so if I take 5 lbs of feathers and 5 lbs of bricks and drop them from the empire state building.........which is going to hit the ground first?

Now a lot of people would be quick to jump and say the bricks without really thinking about it, but if the feathers weigh 5 lbs and the bricks weigh 5 lbs, it's the same

but of course by more airflow @ 18 psi so i'm using more feathers to make 5 lbs than i am bricks, so by that theory i should actually be weighing more than 5 lbs?

or if i take 1 gallon of water and 1 gallon of oil? but oil is thicker than water right? so the oil takes up more "space" so it's actually more than 1 gallon, right?


18 pounds in 1 square inch of space is STILL 18 pounds in a square inch of space, regardless of the air flow.... it is still 18 pounds in that one square inch. It's not going to be more than 18 with more air flowing through. so they were just trying to say or explain that 18 psi is still 18 psi...... a greater airflow just makes it more efficient...... but the pressure still stays the same.


That's were everyone got mixed up......... but Brian was actually right...... it's physics. I bet if you had Tyler Tanaka come in here he'd explain it the same as Brian pretty much did. and if you're not familiar with Tyler Tanaka perhaps you shouldn't be talking about turbos (drunk)

[I forgot to add that yeah more airflow is more airflow, and more efficient, which is why one turbo (say a gt3071r) @ 18 psi produces more power than another turbo (perhaps a gt35r) at 18 psi, because it's flowing more air efficiently (CFMs), but they're still maintaining the pressure @ 18 pounds in a square inch]


now back on the REAL topic, before this turned into a "turbo pressure war"

To the OP........ have you gotten your short block yet? I'd like to know the status of your engine.....

 

[skylinemonster]

Yes but they're talking about people saying 18 psi is not 18 psi

pounds per square inch (psi) is just that.... when something is 18 psi, you can not make it more....... it is 18 pounds in that square inch, just cause it's flowing more does not make it more pounds in a square inch....... it's physics, which is what people were trying to explain.

I think it would have been best if someone used the phrase "a pound is a pound, the world around"

so if I take 5 lbs of feathers and 5 lbs of bricks and drop them from the empire state building.........which is going to hit the ground first?

Now a lot of people would be quick to jump and say the bricks without really thinking about it, but if the feathers weigh 5 lbs and the bricks weigh 5 lbs, it's the same

but of course by more airflow @ 18 psi so i'm using more feathers to make 5 lbs than i am bricks, so by that theory i should actually be weighing more than 5 lbs?

or if i take 1 gallon of water and 1 gallon of oil? but oil is thicker than water right? so the oil takes up more "space" so it's actually more than 1 gallon, right?


18 pounds in 1 square inch of space is STILL 18 pounds in a square inch of space, regardless of the air flow.... it is still 18 pounds in that one square inch. It's not going to be more than 18 with more air flowing through. so they were just trying to say or explain that 18 psi is still 18 psi...... a greater airflow just makes it more efficient...... but the pressure still stays the same.


That's were everyone got mixed up......... but Brian was actually right...... it's physics. I bet if you had Tyler Tanaka come in here he'd explain it the same as Brian pretty much did. and if you're not familiar with Tyler Tanaka perhaps you shouldn't be talking about turbos (drunk)

[I forgot to add that yeah more airflow is more airflow, and more efficient, which is why one turbo (say a gt3071r) @ 18 psi produces more power than another turbo (perhaps a gt35r) at 18 psi, because it's flowing more air efficiently (CFMs), but they're still maintaining the pressure @ 18 pounds in a square inch]


now back on the REAL topic, before this turned into a "turbo pressure war"

To the OP........ have you gotten your short block yet? I'd like to know the status of your engine.....

That is correct sir, but here is how I see it. Higher psi is equal to higher air density which in turn equals an increase in air molecules. So by increasing psi, you are increasing the flow of air molecules in the engine. But...... there is also another way of doing this without actually increasing the psi. It's called a bigger turbo. Now a bigger turbo will move more air than the smaller one even if the psi on both turbos are equal. So this in turn makes more air molecules present in the cylinder. And when combustion takes place, it will be more violent with more air molecules to react with. Think of this analogy, you have a 2 lane highway(small turbo) where each car is going 80 mph and you have a 4 lane highway(big turbo) where each car is also going 80 mph. Now the speed has not changed, which is the PRESSURE, but twice as many cars, which are the AIR MOLECULES are transporting through. So, in the end its the actual amount of air molecules that causes the problem, not the speed of them. And for those of you who argue speed is not pressure, I know its not, but pressure, which is an increase in density, is the means which causes the air molecules to move faster because they are bouncing off one other which propels them faster. Also, think of a house with a propane tank in it. If you fire a gun at it, it will explode pretty violently, but the explosion will be contained and will not damage more than the room it was in. But if you take the contents of that tank and release it all throughout the house and then ignite it, the whole house is likely to go up.

 

[Haltech]

Yes but they're talking about people saying 18 psi is not 18 psi

pounds per square inch (psi) is just that.... when something is 18 psi, you can not make it more....... it is 18 pounds in that square inch, just cause it's flowing more does not make it more pounds in a square inch....... it's physics, which is what people were trying to explain.

I think it would have been best if someone used the phrase "a pound is a pound, the world around"

so if I take 5 lbs of feathers and 5 lbs of bricks and drop them from the empire state building.........which is going to hit the ground first?

Now a lot of people would be quick to jump and say the bricks without really thinking about it, but if the feathers weigh 5 lbs and the bricks weigh 5 lbs, it's the same

but of course by more airflow @ 18 psi so i'm using more feathers to make 5 lbs than i am bricks, so by that theory i should actually be weighing more than 5 lbs?

or if i take 1 gallon of water and 1 gallon of oil? but oil is thicker than water right? so the oil takes up more "space" so it's actually more than 1 gallon, right?


18 pounds in 1 square inch of space is STILL 18 pounds in a square inch of space, regardless of the air flow.... it is still 18 pounds in that one square inch. It's not going to be more than 18 with more air flowing through. so they were just trying to say or explain that 18 psi is still 18 psi...... a greater airflow just makes it more efficient...... but the pressure still stays the same.


That's were everyone got mixed up......... but Brian was actually right...... it's physics. I bet if you had Tyler Tanaka come in here he'd explain it the same as Brian pretty much did. and if you're not familiar with Tyler Tanaka perhaps you shouldn't be talking about turbos (drunk)

[I forgot to add that yeah more airflow is more airflow, and more efficient, which is why one turbo (say a gt3071r) @ 18 psi produces more power than another turbo (perhaps a gt35r) at 18 psi, because it's flowing more air efficiently (CFMs), but they're still maintaining the pressure @ 18 pounds in a square inch]


now back on the REAL topic, before this turned into a "turbo pressure war"

To the OP........ have you gotten your short block yet? I'd like to know the status of your engine.....

You forgot one important thing comparing 5 pounds of feathers, to 5 pounds of bricks... You will need a larger volume of feathers to reach 5 pounds, than bricks.. therefore, we go back to CFM or Lb/min... Youre still in the same boat. Although a PSI is a PSI, the amount of air being pushed at that PSI will be different between the two turbo's.

 

[Koenig]

EXACTLY.... like you said with the 2 lane and 4 lane... 18 PSI is still 18 PSI regardless of airflow, just more air gets through the 4 lane(turbo with more CFM rating) than the 2 lane (turbo with smaller CFM rating) but in the end it's still 18 PSI, and people were saying it's not :-D

Good job. I liked your analogy....

That is correct sir, but here is how I see it. Higher psi is equal to higher air density which in turn equals an increase in air molecules. So by increasing psi, you are increasing the flow of air molecules in the engine. But...... there is also another way of doing this without actually increasing the psi. It's called a bigger turbo. Now a bigger turbo will move more air than the smaller one even if the psi on both turbos are equal. So this in turn makes more air molecules present in the cylinder. And when combustion takes place, it will be more violent with more air molecules to react with. Think of this analogy, you have a 2 lane highway(small turbo) where each car is going 80 mph and you have a 4 lane highway(big turbo) where each car is also going 80 mph. Now the speed has not changed, which is the PRESSURE, but twice as many cars, which are the AIR MOLECULES are transporting through. So, in the end its the actual amount of air molecules that causes the problem, not the speed of them. And for those of you who argue speed is not pressure, I know its not, but pressure, which is an increase in density, is the means which causes the air molecules to move faster because they are bouncing off one other which propels them faster. Also, think of a house with a propane tank in it. If you fire a gun at it, it will explode pretty violently, but the explosion will be contained and will not damage more than the room it was in. But if you take the contents of that tank and release it all throughout the house and then ignite it, the whole house is likely to go up.

 

[Koenig]

OK.... it appears you have failed to grasp the concept/nature of the topic and realize you did just prove me right.

We're not talking about volume, everyone agrees there is more airflow, but it's still 18 psi regardless of how much. We're trying to explain to those people that say 18 psi on one turbo is not 18 psi on another turbo.

you proved my point.... even though I'm using a greater amount of feathers than I am bricks (volume, space, density whatever term you prefer) IN THE END IT STILL WEIGHS 5 POUNDS.......... thus regardless of how much more or little airflow is going through..... the pressure is still 18 psi.

The reason a gt35r makes more power at 18 PSI than a gt3071r at 18 psi is because of airflow (CFMs) but each turbo is STILL producing 18 PSI...the more airflow just constitutes to more power, but the Pressure is still 18 (2thumbs) Which is pretty much what people were trying to explain to others like Maxx and such. now to produce as much POWER, that no longer means the PSI is equal... one turbo @ 12 PSI can produce the same power as a smaller turbo at 19 PSI..... simply because the smaller turbo @ 19 PSI is producing the same amount of airflow (CFM) as the bigger turbo at 12 PSI. That has nothing to do with pressure being pressure.... Some people don't seem to grasp this concept.
[edit]
oh and I am in no way saying you can EXACTLY create the same amount of power, just explaining how the PSI is different between 2 different sized turbos but are set up to have the same CFM.

You forgot one important thing comparing 5 pounds of feathers, to 5 pounds of bricks... You will need a larger volume of feathers to reach 5 pounds, than bricks.. therefore, we go back to CFM or Lb/min... Youre still in the same boat. Although a PSI is a PSI, the amount of air being pushed at that PSI will be different between the two turbo's.

 

[Haltech]

Well im glad we got that out of the way!

So, there are people using the GT35R instead of the 3076R on their MS6's? How is that working out for them?

OK.... it appears you have failed to grasp the concept/nature of the topic and realize you did just prove me right.

We're not talking about volume, everyone agrees there is more airflow, but it's still 18 psi regardless of how much. We're trying to explain to those people that say 18 psi on one turbo is not 18 psi on another turbo.

you proved my point.... even though I'm using a greater amount of feathers than I am bricks (volume, space, density whatever term you prefer) IN THE END IT STILL WEIGHS 5 POUNDS.......... thus regardless of how much more or little airflow is going through..... the pressure is still 18 psi.

The reason a gt35r makes more power at 18 PSI than a gt3071r at 18 psi is because of airflow (CFMs) but each turbo is STILL producing 18 PSI...the more airflow just constitutes to more power, but the Pressure is still 18 (2thumbs) Which is pretty much what people were trying to explain to others like Maxx and such. now to produce as much POWER, that no longer means the PSI is equal... one turbo @ 12 PSI can produce the same power as a smaller turbo at 19 PSI..... simply because the smaller turbo @ 19 PSI is producing the same amount of airflow (CFM) as the bigger turbo at 12 PSI. That has nothing to do with pressure being pressure.... Some people don't seem to grasp this concept.
[edit]
oh and I am in no way saying you can EXACTLY create the same amount of power, just explaining how the PSI is different between 2 different sized turbos but are set up to have the same CFM.

 

[S.A.MSP]

18 psi is 18 psi, however on a bigger turbo set at 18psi will produce alot more horsepower than the smaller turbo at 18psi which comes from the increase in CFM

edit: sorry, didn't see someone already pretty much posted the exact same thing till after i posted mine

The poor guy blew his motor and it's a shame, this is his thread about it, same thing happened to my blown motor thread and it got locked, cut the guy some slack, i'm sure he doesn't need all this bickering

 

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

gosh you guys are dumb. the amount of air present in the cylinder will not be different at equal pressures!(edit: if the temp stays the same) if you increase the amount of air molecules present that is directly affecting the pressure.

a bigger turbo flows more air when not hooked up to an engine, or if you increase your desired boost pressure while hooked up to an engine.

when hooked up to an engine, the turbos airflow is regulated by the wastegate which is regulated by pressure. when it reaches i.e. 18 psi the wastegate will open. then it doesn't matter how much air your turbo can flow because its not even pushing air at that point.

so tell me how you can reach a higher pressure, with a turbo that flows more, when the engine is set for the same boost pressure?

 

[Haltech]

gosh you guys are dumb. the amount of air present in the cylinder will not be different at equal pressures! if you increase the amount of air molecules present that is directly affecting the pressure. a bigger turbo can only flow more air when not hooked up to an engine!

Umm incorrect... If that was the case, there would be a 1 size turbo or 1 size supercharger... Take a 112 CUI supercharger at 10 psi versus a 230 CUI Supercharger at 10 PSI.. The horsepower difference is exactly 46 HP... ask me how i know this?

 

[terbow]

lol at this thread. let it die, its never going to sink into everyone, the last 3 pages are of basic physics and not what the thread is about. i want to see rebuild pics and damage shots not read about how turbos work, 3 pages is enough damnit

 

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

anyways ORIGINAL POSTER,

when you start your rebuild, please start a new thread, and let this thread die.

thanks,
mike

 

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

Umm incorrect... If that was the case, there would be a 1 size turbo or 1 size supercharger... Take a 112 CUI supercharger at 10 psi versus a 230 CUI Supercharger at 10 PSI.. The horsepower difference is exactly 46 HP... ask me how i know this?

i'm not talking about the power increase you noob. i simply was talking about the amount of pressure

if you are that retarded then (sssh) stfu

 

[Haltech]

i'm not talking about the power increase you noob. i simply was talking about the amount of pressure

if you are that retarded then (sssh) stfu

Noob? Explain the power increase without an increase of volumetric air?

Its nice to see this forum riddled with immature kids and s*** talk.

 

[terbow]

you can increase power without increasing pressure. its called compressor efficiency. if its not putting out hot air at larger psi like a small turbo would then u get more power cause colder air =more power.

 

[S.A.MSP]

i hate this thread now, it's filled with hate

 

[terbow]

yup.

 

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

Noob? Explain the power increase without an increase of volumetric air?

Its nice to see this forum riddled with immature kids and s*** talk.

NOOB (gtfo)

 

[Haltech]

you can increase power without increasing pressure. its called compressor efficiency. if its not putting out hot air at larger psi like a small turbo would then u get more power cause colder air =more power.

No one said anything about increasing pressure.. bigger turbo, equals larger volume of air at the same PSI.

 

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

how do you fit that larger volume of air at the same psi into a confined space (cylinder)? the only way is to make the air colder like he said. terbow is correct