You can try switching to a heavier weight oil for the summer since your engine will run hotter in general. Tough part though is that the OE oil pump has problems with long term mid to high sustained revs (as seen on the highway) that then ends up with low oil pressure. This is what we dealt with when we developed the oil pump service we provide.
FS-DE Oil System
- Thread starter MP3racer
- Start date
You can try switching to a heavier weight oil for the summer since your engine will run hotter in general. Tough part though is that the OE oil pump has problems with long term mid to high sustained revs (as seen on the highway) that then ends up with low oil pressure. This is what we dealt with when we developed the oil pump service we provide.
Most definitely still available...PM me and I will give you the details of where to send your pump, etc.
Thanks Perro del Sol for the kind words! Hope your system is going well?
Thanks!
Tom
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
I really want to do this, but i'm getting current pressure readings that don't seem to match a lot of other guys...I installed my oil pressure gauge just a few months ago, so only have that time frame to go off of...its installed on a sandwich adapter at the oil filter, so not T'd off of anything...also, its an NA engine with 161,000 miles currently...mobil 1 10w30 since forever, changed every 5k miles...i burn less than half a quart between changes...
completely cold morning start, pressure goes to about 70 psi with idle up around 1700 rpm...as it drops during warm up, pressure still stays above 60...when i move the car cold, pressure is well over 80 psi at around 2500 rpm...getting very close to 90 if i take it up to 4k, but i very rarely do that before its fully heated...
after a complete warm up, with oil temp around 230 degrees...idle is about 22 psi...sustained cruising at 70mph (3100 rpm or so) is about 62 psi...and full throttle to redline in any gear takes me up to about 70 psi...
and that is pretty much how it always is...if i really push the car for a while, and get oil temp closer to 255-260 degrees (can't recall ever getting the oil hotter than that, and that was after multiple 'drags' and sustained high revs)...my idle pressure drops to about 19psi...and redline is more like 68 instead of 70+...but the oil temp quickly comes down after just a minute or so of lighter driving, and i'm back to the 22 at idle, etc...
So am i just lucky? Or is it maybe the factory pump is fine for an NA engine, and the turbo lines are possibly something that kind of break the system down a little?...I'm set on doing an oil pump service for my upcoming engine build, but can't really see if i need the EFV...
completely cold morning start, pressure goes to about 70 psi with idle up around 1700 rpm...as it drops during warm up, pressure still stays above 60...when i move the car cold, pressure is well over 80 psi at around 2500 rpm...getting very close to 90 if i take it up to 4k, but i very rarely do that before its fully heated...
after a complete warm up, with oil temp around 230 degrees...idle is about 22 psi...sustained cruising at 70mph (3100 rpm or so) is about 62 psi...and full throttle to redline in any gear takes me up to about 70 psi...
and that is pretty much how it always is...if i really push the car for a while, and get oil temp closer to 255-260 degrees (can't recall ever getting the oil hotter than that, and that was after multiple 'drags' and sustained high revs)...my idle pressure drops to about 19psi...and redline is more like 68 instead of 70+...but the oil temp quickly comes down after just a minute or so of lighter driving, and i'm back to the 22 at idle, etc...
So am i just lucky? Or is it maybe the factory pump is fine for an NA engine, and the turbo lines are possibly something that kind of break the system down a little?...I'm set on doing an oil pump service for my upcoming engine build, but can't really see if i need the EFV...
Perro del Sol
Member
- :
- 2003 MSP, Spicy Orange, 2004 Mazda 6 Hatch, 2004 Mazda 6 Wagon
Tom, it's Marlon...the system is great and I am real happy with upgrade. This should be required for all of these motors, NA or FI!
So I've been having an issue for a week or so with my PRV at cold start. The psi is around 85 and I'm running castrol 10w40 conventional. The issue is that when I go to rev the engine to pull out of my garage cuz I'm trying to get going to work, the oil temp fluctuates almost 10 degrees below and above the 80 mark. The wierd part is that the prv which is mounted to the firewall vibrates and makes a hell of a racket.
Any ideas on what this could be? I've driven the car minimally and have not tried adjusting it at all. The noise and fluctuations do go away once the engine warms up.
Any ideas on what this could be? I've driven the car minimally and have not tried adjusting it at all. The noise and fluctuations do go away once the engine warms up.
Or you could PM him instead and not be lazy.
You could also be more specific, details of what? The meaning of life? The secrets to the bermuda triangle? Details of what exactly. (I realise you mean oil system, but that still a vast area)
CrispToast
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege5
Tom (MP3Racer)-
Thank you for making available this very beneficial system available. Having lost an engine due to damage done at the track, it makes me less apprehensive about replacing the engine and having it happen all over again.
My question: This solution addresses the most threatening problem to engine longevity in the FS-DE engine. The available pan and pan modifications have been discussed here as well. I'm wondering about another aspects of the oil system. There is also a ready-made oil scraper available for this engine from Ishihara-Johnson, (http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Mazda_FS.html.) I'm wondering if you use this or something like it to help release oil from the crank and return it to the sump.
Thanks
Thank you for making available this very beneficial system available. Having lost an engine due to damage done at the track, it makes me less apprehensive about replacing the engine and having it happen all over again.
My question: This solution addresses the most threatening problem to engine longevity in the FS-DE engine. The available pan and pan modifications have been discussed here as well. I'm wondering about another aspects of the oil system. There is also a ready-made oil scraper available for this engine from Ishihara-Johnson, (http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Mazda_FS.html.) I'm wondering if you use this or something like it to help release oil from the crank and return it to the sump.
Thanks
I recently switched my oil pressure sensor location from a T on the factory sensor to an oil filter sandwich plate. I also replaced the gasket on the oil pickup tube and switched to an OEM oil pan for peace of mind. Pressure is a bit better after the 40 mile drive to work, but still hovers at 4-10 psi at idle. Once I am off idle, pressure jumps to 20-50psi depending on RPM.
Would just doing the oil pump coating be enough to raise pressure a bit at idle? I don't think I want to do the PRV/filter relocation.
CrispToast
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege5
I've been reading this thread agian and I keep coming back to the explaination given for why this oil pump becomes ineffective after the engine has been worked hard.
I accept that it happens, but the "why" offered has never rung true. Cavitation occurs under a couple circumstances and eventually that may part of the failure chain, but the primary cause I think lies elsewhere.
When oil, water, air or any other fluid is pushed at some pressure through a bypass, orifice, or leak, the fluid heats up due to friction with itself. If left unchecked in hydraulic systems, this can create temperatures high enough to burn up lots of o-rings and other seals. I once had a faulty power washer at work that when the trigger on the cleaning wand was not depressed, the water circulated in the pump through a bypass and heated up. When the trigger was squeezed the water pressure in the hose dropped and the water coming out of the pump turned to steam. When the steam got to the nozzle it came out at a much higher velocity vs the water. This greatly increased the recoil of the wand and made it unsafe to use until it was repaired.
I'm guessing he same thing is happening here. Since unlike most oil pumps, this one bypasses into the inlet rather than dumping the bypassed oil back to the pan, in situations where there is likely to be a lot of high speed running, (and as one would expect a lot of bypassed oil due to high pressures,) the oil which is heated a little more every time it gets bypassed, is fed right back into the pump thus overheating the pump.
Overheating can loosen up the clearances in the pump making less effective while it's hot. Heat can also make cavitation more likely since the oil is now very hot and could easily boil if exposed to a low pressure as is found on the suction side of the pump.
I've also puzzled over why the Mazda engineers would build a pump this way, and I don't think it was by mistake.
First and foremost these cars and these engines are meant for the general public, not racers, and not enthusiasts who will beat the daylights out of them like we do. Yes, I know, the Mazda marketing department pushes all that ZOOM-ZOOM stuff, and all that, "On any given weekend there are more Mazdas on race tracks than any other brand." The engineering department may not have gotten the memo that said, "We need to make our oiling systems capable of extended service on the race track." They probably WERE given the memo that said, "Find ways to give better mileage especially on cold starts."
I think they intentionally made the pump work this way to effectively heat the oil on cold starts. When an engine is cold, the viscosity of the oil is pretty high. In addition, the clearances are slightly tighter. All this makes the engine work harder just to stay running at idle. It also makes the oil pressure pretty high as well. There is likely some bypassing going on that heats the oil and helps shorten the engine warmup. Once the engine heats up to normal temperatures, pressure drops and the bypassing is not a factor and never will be for the average driver.
But sustained high speed work will overheat the pump and cause problems.
My $0.02.
I accept that it happens, but the "why" offered has never rung true. Cavitation occurs under a couple circumstances and eventually that may part of the failure chain, but the primary cause I think lies elsewhere.
When oil, water, air or any other fluid is pushed at some pressure through a bypass, orifice, or leak, the fluid heats up due to friction with itself. If left unchecked in hydraulic systems, this can create temperatures high enough to burn up lots of o-rings and other seals. I once had a faulty power washer at work that when the trigger on the cleaning wand was not depressed, the water circulated in the pump through a bypass and heated up. When the trigger was squeezed the water pressure in the hose dropped and the water coming out of the pump turned to steam. When the steam got to the nozzle it came out at a much higher velocity vs the water. This greatly increased the recoil of the wand and made it unsafe to use until it was repaired.
I'm guessing he same thing is happening here. Since unlike most oil pumps, this one bypasses into the inlet rather than dumping the bypassed oil back to the pan, in situations where there is likely to be a lot of high speed running, (and as one would expect a lot of bypassed oil due to high pressures,) the oil which is heated a little more every time it gets bypassed, is fed right back into the pump thus overheating the pump.
Overheating can loosen up the clearances in the pump making less effective while it's hot. Heat can also make cavitation more likely since the oil is now very hot and could easily boil if exposed to a low pressure as is found on the suction side of the pump.
I've also puzzled over why the Mazda engineers would build a pump this way, and I don't think it was by mistake.
First and foremost these cars and these engines are meant for the general public, not racers, and not enthusiasts who will beat the daylights out of them like we do. Yes, I know, the Mazda marketing department pushes all that ZOOM-ZOOM stuff, and all that, "On any given weekend there are more Mazdas on race tracks than any other brand." The engineering department may not have gotten the memo that said, "We need to make our oiling systems capable of extended service on the race track." They probably WERE given the memo that said, "Find ways to give better mileage especially on cold starts."
I think they intentionally made the pump work this way to effectively heat the oil on cold starts. When an engine is cold, the viscosity of the oil is pretty high. In addition, the clearances are slightly tighter. All this makes the engine work harder just to stay running at idle. It also makes the oil pressure pretty high as well. There is likely some bypassing going on that heats the oil and helps shorten the engine warmup. Once the engine heats up to normal temperatures, pressure drops and the bypassing is not a factor and never will be for the average driver.
But sustained high speed work will overheat the pump and cause problems.
My $0.02.
- :
- Completely Stock P5
The stock oil pump and bypass are simply a bad design. You don't need to run the car "hard" to expose this weakness.
CrispToast
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege5
Circuit, you make a good point. The key difference in this pump to other pumps seems to be where it dumps the bypassed oil. Every other pump I've ever seen dumps it back to the pan. I've read here the bypassed oil goes back to the suction side of the pump. I have never measured how much a typical pump bleeds off overpressures, so I cannot say how much it goes on. Perhaps it happens frequently in those situations where it isn't being worked very hard at all, like highway speeds 60-75 mph or even in stop and go traffic. In those cases, it would still "work" the oil and worked fluid is heated fluid. Recirculate that heated oil then bypass it and heat it some more and soon you've got a heat buildup in the oil that then transfers its heat to the pump, expanding the metal and opening clearances. Pumps need tight clearances to maintain effectiveness.
So perhaps it DOESN'T have to be hammered on to bypass a lot and bring out all of its worst characteristics.
So perhaps it DOESN'T have to be hammered on to bypass a lot and bring out all of its worst characteristics.
Tools a long drive from SF or LA and oil pressures were in the dumps when I arrived. I had to keep the engine reved above 1500 rpm to sustain 10psi... Ordered a new OEM oil pump last night. Will look into relocation kits and a new OEM oil pan to get a bung welded in.
Perro del Sol
Member
- :
- 2003 MSP, Spicy Orange, 2004 Mazda 6 Hatch, 2004 Mazda 6 Wagon
He does, best investment I've made to date, along with the relocation kit. My oil pressure @ idle is 18-25 psi
How do I get a hold of him? I trued the member that started this thread to no avail. The help is greatly appreciated. Thanks
Perro del Sol
Member
- :
- 2003 MSP, Spicy Orange, 2004 Mazda 6 Hatch, 2004 Mazda 6 Wagon
PM him, he will answer
Will do. Thanks
