FS-DE Oil System

MP3racer said:
Hard to tell what is exactly the problem. More than likely with 75K miles it is a combination of both the bearings and the oil pump.
With 40 psi at redline, if your bearings aren't worn they soon will be!!

BTW, what weight oil are you using? Is it petroleum based or synthetic? How long has it been since your last oil change??
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Pennzoil Synthetic 5-30, brand new or old, same deal. What caught my eye is the fact that oil pressure fluctuates with throttle application, which was not the case a few months ago. Plus the idle pressure is lower now as well. I guess the next thing to do would be an oil pump overhaul. I'll be sending you one asap.

I used to run the car hard in the mountains up in souther CA, and i'm sure that the bearings took a beating with the stock oil pan.

Thanks!
 
CustomMSP said:
Pennzoil Synthetic 5-30, brand new or old, same deal. What caught my eye is the fact that oil pressure fluctuates with throttle application, which was not the case a few months ago. Plus the idle pressure is lower now as well. I guess the next thing to do would be an oil pump overhaul. I'll be sending you one asap.

I used to run the car hard in the mountains up in souther CA, and i'm sure that the bearings took a beating with the stock oil pan.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Yeah, early on in the development of the FS-DE race motors we would see a drop-off in oil pressure as the bearings started to wear.

As you come off idle does your turbo build any pressure immediately? That can create quite a downward force on the piston and rod which translates to the crankshaft. This can cause an increase in the main bearing clearance to one side and decrease the oil pressure. Just theorizing here...

Remember, the improved oil pump is only part of the system. You really need the external PRV to get the most out of the system!
 
MP3racer said:
Yeah, early on in the development of the FS-DE race motors we would see a drop-off in oil pressure as the bearings started to wear.

As you come off idle does your turbo build any pressure immediately? That can create quite a downward force on the piston and rod which translates to the crankshaft. This can cause an increase in the main bearing clearance to one side and decrease the oil pressure. Just theorizing here...

Remember, the improved oil pump is only part of the system. You really need the external PRV to get the most out of the system!
Click to expand...

I have a t3/t4, so it's not that instantaneous with pressure. I hear you on the complete system, I think I'll send out a pump and ask you to prepare it for me for the EBV. Then I'll swap out the bearings to tri-metal. Should be good to go.

Thanks,
 
CustomMSP said:
I have a t3/t4, so it's not that instantaneous with pressure. I hear you on the complete system, I think I'll send out a pump and ask you to prepare it for me for the EBV. Then I'll swap out the bearings to tri-metal. Should be good to go.

Thanks,
Click to expand...


On the bearings, we found that for the mains the Mazda OE bearings work just fine! We use a special made bearing for the rods though.
 
MP3racer said:
On the bearings, we found that for the mains the Mazda OE bearings work just fine! We use a special made bearing for the rods though.
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where do you get special anything for our cars? but seriously, where do you get special rod bearings?? I want some! Come on Tommy... HOOK US UP!!!! you're holding back.
 
If I sent you a set of pistons with my oil pump can swain tech coat the skirts as well?
 
Signature Sound said:
where do you get special anything for our cars? but seriously, where do you get special rod bearings?? I want some! Come on Tommy... HOOK US UP!!!! you're holding back.
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Clevite has been a technical partner and sponsor of the team for the development of the FS-DE. They have been a tremendous help in supplying an engineer to work with us. The rod bearings Clevite has helped us to develop are actual racing type rod bearings. As everyone knows, there are not many applications in the racing world for the Mazda FS-DE engine. Therefore, the rod bearings are actaully from a different application and require some machine work to the bearings themselves to make them work. It also requires cutting the notch in the rod cap for the bearing tang on the opposite side from the OE bearing. This is easily ordered at the time of the forged rod purchase when new or you can send them back to the manufacturer to have this done.

Due to the machining work that is required to the rod bearings and that they are true racing bearings they are considerably more costly than regular rod bearings. I can get a price if anyone is interested.

And yes, they are coated but that only helps the bearings further. It is not the only advantage these bearings have over OE.
 
Maxx Mazda said:
If I sent you a set of pistons with my oil pump can swain tech coat the skirts as well?
Click to expand...

Yes, I can take parts over to Swain. Let me know what you want to do and I will get a quote for you. Usually, you would have the skirts coated with the lubricity coating. Also, we have the piston tops coated with their thermal barrier coating. Helps by keeping the heat in the valve chamber for better combustion and keeps the oil cooler by less heat transfer through the piston. Also, to a degree can help deter problems when detonation occurs.

LMK
 
tom - even though you guys have dev. some internal parts you guys don't put too much whp on FS-DET right ?

If the power in question was to 400whp and up will those bearing that you guys have dev. work perf. but the car will be DD as well?

BTW do you guys get special deal's from SWAIN TECH ?

CustomMSP- you plan on using 5w30 on summer as well ?
 
Speed3.5 said:
tom - even though you guys have dev. some internal parts you guys don't put too much whp on FS-DET right ?

If the power in question was to 400whp and up will those bearing that you guys have dev. work perf. but the car will be DD as well?

BTW do you guys get special deal's from SWAIN TECH ?

CustomMSP- you plan on using 5w30 on summer as well ?
Click to expand...


I'm not sure what you mean by "too much whp"?? We are limited to around 10 psi so we get as much whp with that boost level as we can.

These bearings are similar to the bearings used in Indycar and Nascar engines so they are able to take considerable HP.

Regarding Swain, we don't get any "deals" but they are no longer taking parts direct. We can send them over to them for coating if you need them done. I will try to get the best price for you.
 
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w/ 10 psi limit you guys are ~250whp , comparing to 400+whp load I'm assuming bearings can't be the same but then again I'm not an expert on internals. But, how come the stock MAIN bearing are more favorable instead of an aftermarket one comparing to 400+whp again thats why I brought up the HP differences.

I'll keep you in mind when time comes for Coating.
 
Speed3.5 said:
w/ 10 psi limit you guys are ~250whp , comparing to 400+whp load I'm assuming bearings can't be the same but then again I'm not an expert on internals. But, how come the stock MAIN bearing are more favorable instead of an aftermarket one comparing to 400+whp again thats why I brought up the HP differences.

I'll keep you in mind when time comes for Coating.
Click to expand...

Building an engine requires several factors to be evaluated. One of the most important factors we have found is the engine bearing clearance. The Mazda mains are available in various sizes (thicknesses) to enable us to get the clearance numbers we found to work. To get these specific clearances you need to pick the bearing thickness for each journal according to the crankshaft journal diameter for that specific journal.

The Mazda rod bearings do not come in various bearing thicknesses to allow the same choice. Also, in a forced induction motor the rods take quite a beating from the higher combustion pressures. Therefore, we went with the Clevite racing rod bearings which do have a few thicknesses available. The other way to do this is to have your crankshaft cut to a specific undercut size and use +10 bearings. However, this is even more expensive and it is hard to find a machine shop that has that level of a preciscion crankshaft grinder.

This type of precision engine building is the norm for most racing motors whether they be 250 hp or 400hp.
 
MP3racer said:
Building an engine requires several factors to be evaluated...

Also, in a forced induction motor the rods take quite a beating from the higher combustion pressures. Therefore, we went with the Clevite racing rod bearings which do have a few thicknesses available. The other way to do this is to have your crankshaft cut to a specific undercut size and use +10 bearings. However, this is even more expensive and it is hard to find a machine shop that has that level of a preciscion crankshaft grinder.

This type of precision engine building is the norm for most racing motors whether they be 250 hp or 400hp.
Click to expand...

With this being my third build for the car, I had taken this into consideration as well. For anyone interested and in the area, there is a machine shop in Grand rapids, MI that does this kind of precision machining. Their name is "Austin-Jordan" and they do really good work for what they charge. I had my LSD installed for only $100, My entire rotation assy. balanced for $122, block bored and decked for $70 and they grinded the crank for free when they balanced it. I gave them all the parts they requested to do the job completely, but how I know the clearances were right is my brother-in-law assembled the motor. He was very impressed knowing how crucial bore tolerance can be for forged pistons and the like. If you happen to give them the wrong part or the wrong size of something, they will exchange it for the right part and not try to upcharge you.

I wish I would have done the coating thing before assembly on this motor. Now I feel inadequate! LOL
 
jwehrheim said:
MP3Racer,
I would like to have my oil pump coated. Where can I sent the pump and what is the cost?
Thanks
Click to expand...

This is a reprint from the first post....
The pricing is as follows:
$100 for blueprint service on the oil pump
$130 for external bypass valves (Sorry everyone, the company that makes the PRV had a slight price increase for 2009 so the price went from $125 to $130....I held them to the wall as much as possible and split the increase! I am able to keep the oil pump service at the 2008 price for now....)

If purchasing together I will include modifying the oil pump to work with an external bypass valve! You should be able to source your own sandwich plates, hoses, and bung for the MBSP or pan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MP3racer
The $100 covers:
1.receiving your pump
2.disassembling your pump
3.recording pre-coating specs
4.sending to Swain Tech
5.coating of parts at Swain Tech
6.receiving back from Swain Tech
7.recording post-coating specs
8.reassembly of your pump

Shipping cost back to you is determined by where you are located. You will receive with your pump a copy of the specs.
The current turn-around time is 3 weeks including the time at Swain Tech.

PM me your address and I will geta shipping quote for you. I will also send you our address.
 
This might be a little too much to ask but can you guys give us more info on the engine and stuff you guys have done. For example I didn't know you guys had custom clevite race bearings for your engine. I will be building a motor in the future and I really want to do it once and right. I just figured you guys have so much knowledge and maybe you can share it with us and helps us all out.

Thanks,
Marko
 
03.5MSP said:
This might be a little too much to ask but can you guys give us more info on the engine and stuff you guys have done. For example I didn't know you guys had custom clevite race bearings for your engine. I will be building a motor in the future and I really want to do it once and right. I just figured you guys have so much knowledge and maybe you can share it with us and helps us all out.

Thanks,
Marko
Click to expand...


Sounds like we need a new thread discussing the various mods and parts we use in our motors. Work is going fever-pitched on the racecar since there is less than four weeks to the first race (spin). I'll try to get something started soon....
 
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