Timing belt replacement on 1.8 (2.0) Proteges
- Thread starter gozz
- Start date
Well, my friend, that is what I wrote:
"21. Put the new tensioner and tighten it. (do not put the tension spring on yet!!!) This type of tensioners used on 1.8 and 2.0 proteges operates by a spring tension and auto-adjustment feature, meaning that even if it is tightened all the way, it will still swivel back and forth, as the spring pushes on it against the belt..."
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Hi gozz,
I have it all put back together, but I have an annoying whining noise that I can't quite pin down. Please forgive this long thread, but I want to explain clearly. Here goes:
There is no whining noise at all at idle; either sitting still or if I drive down the road and depress the clutch and let it slow down to idle while still moving. Either parked or moving, as I bring up the revs just above idle, I start hearing the noise, and it gets a little louder as rpms increase. The noise sort of sounds like a high pitched dentist's drill.
To try to debug this, I loosened up both the A-C/PowerSteering and alternator/waterpump belts completely and did the rev test: still the noise comes as described above with both belts disengaged.
Here are three things that I can think of:
1) The black plastic OEM timing belt top and bottom covers had bad gaskets softened from my valve cover leakage, and were cracked at one mounting hole, so I replaced the covers (~$80US from Rockauto). When I put the bottom cover on, then put the crank pulley with its rear thin "washer" back on the crank shaft, I noticed that pulley's back shaft cleared the plastic hole as expected, but it looked like the "washer" was going to rub just slightly on the plastic hole. I didn't worry about this because I assumed the rubbing would "wear" the plastic hole to size in a matter of a couple miles.
2) I removed the crank bolt with a 2ft bar with the 21mm socket, and bumped the starter, as seen in the YouTube video. This is an old trick that has served me well over the years. Even though I have a torque wrench, I copied your idea of marking the bolt and pulley with an alignment line before removal, so I could visually see that the bolt was replaced to the same position that it was removed. When I put the bolt back on the final time, I had no assistants available. The 8mm bolts that I could screw into the pulley gave me no way to lock the crank without bending the bolts. So I came up with an idea to use the 8mm hole protrusions on the front of the pulley and a 2 3/4" long 3/8" extension. I placed the 3/8" extension's female socket on one of the protrusions, and placed the male end on the underside lip of the fender frame. I temporarily reinserted the crank bolt and turned the crank to snuggle up the extension in place, then removed the bolt. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/crank^_pulley^_tighten.jpg
This effectively locked the crank when pulling on the bolt and allowed me to get the bolt installed to specs. Just a word of caution here: make sure you have the motor mount re-installed before tightening the bolt, because this will try to pull down on the engine as you tighten the bolt.
3) In my 2/1/10 thread, I was concerned about how to get the new tension arm installed correctly, and you offered guidance which I appreciate. I bolted that arm down, and had to use a hex wrench in that hex hole on the front to move that arm fully clockwise so that the spring hole was on top (and made it easy to attach the new spring to the pin). Spring installed, when I let go of that hex key, that arm didn't move back counterclockwise *one mm*. I left it like that because the instructions that came with the tension arm said to move it fully clockwise with some force, put the spring on the pin, and your done (nothing abut manually moving it counterclockwise). The only way that new tension arm moves counterclockwise that I can see, is if I put a hex key in it and manually do it. My assumption here is that there must be enough significant force from the belt to push that arm counter clockwise at some time; otherwise the spring would not be necessary to counter the counterclockwise movement.
Again, so very sorry for the long tread. I will greatly appreciate if you would care to comment on my items 1, 2 and 3 above (or anything else you might think of).
Regards,
Brcobrem
P.S. I have some new pics and (hopefully) helpful comments about this job that I will be happy to post once I get over this last problem. In the interim, here's one about getting the timing marks aligned that (like myself) I see other people had problems with: The two slotted marks on the cams must be lined up perfectly horizontal (ie. not tilted down at all). I could not get the crank notch and these marks to align after tuning the crank four turns, until an hour later . . . I discovered that when you remove the belt, the cams are still under some tension from the lifters I suppose, and those alignment marks will move downward about one tooth when the belt comes off. You're under the vehicle trying to slide the belt over the tension arm so it will come easily off the crank gear, and you don't notice the cam marks have moved slightly. Following is a (after the fact) pic of my left hand and right hand pushing downward on each cam (not much force required). THE BELT SHOULD NOT BE ON AS SHOWN HERE! Have an assistant tap in a little block of wood to keep the cams sprung back in proper position once the wrenches are removed. AGAIN, DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE BELT ON THE CAMS! This pic was taken after I had put the belt back on correctly. And by all means, do not forget to tap out that piece of wood once the belt is back on the cams! Note that the cams can't spring back out of horizontal because they'd have to crush that piece of wood:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/cams^_spread^_and^_block^_of^_wood^_inserted.jpg
Hope that helps.
I have it all put back together, but I have an annoying whining noise that I can't quite pin down. Please forgive this long thread, but I want to explain clearly. Here goes:
There is no whining noise at all at idle; either sitting still or if I drive down the road and depress the clutch and let it slow down to idle while still moving. Either parked or moving, as I bring up the revs just above idle, I start hearing the noise, and it gets a little louder as rpms increase. The noise sort of sounds like a high pitched dentist's drill.
To try to debug this, I loosened up both the A-C/PowerSteering and alternator/waterpump belts completely and did the rev test: still the noise comes as described above with both belts disengaged.
Here are three things that I can think of:
1) The black plastic OEM timing belt top and bottom covers had bad gaskets softened from my valve cover leakage, and were cracked at one mounting hole, so I replaced the covers (~$80US from Rockauto). When I put the bottom cover on, then put the crank pulley with its rear thin "washer" back on the crank shaft, I noticed that pulley's back shaft cleared the plastic hole as expected, but it looked like the "washer" was going to rub just slightly on the plastic hole. I didn't worry about this because I assumed the rubbing would "wear" the plastic hole to size in a matter of a couple miles.
2) I removed the crank bolt with a 2ft bar with the 21mm socket, and bumped the starter, as seen in the YouTube video. This is an old trick that has served me well over the years. Even though I have a torque wrench, I copied your idea of marking the bolt and pulley with an alignment line before removal, so I could visually see that the bolt was replaced to the same position that it was removed. When I put the bolt back on the final time, I had no assistants available. The 8mm bolts that I could screw into the pulley gave me no way to lock the crank without bending the bolts. So I came up with an idea to use the 8mm hole protrusions on the front of the pulley and a 2 3/4" long 3/8" extension. I placed the 3/8" extension's female socket on one of the protrusions, and placed the male end on the underside lip of the fender frame. I temporarily reinserted the crank bolt and turned the crank to snuggle up the extension in place, then removed the bolt. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/crank^_pulley^_tighten.jpg
This effectively locked the crank when pulling on the bolt and allowed me to get the bolt installed to specs. Just a word of caution here: make sure you have the motor mount re-installed before tightening the bolt, because this will try to pull down on the engine as you tighten the bolt.
3) In my 2/1/10 thread, I was concerned about how to get the new tension arm installed correctly, and you offered guidance which I appreciate. I bolted that arm down, and had to use a hex wrench in that hex hole on the front to move that arm fully clockwise so that the spring hole was on top (and made it easy to attach the new spring to the pin). Spring installed, when I let go of that hex key, that arm didn't move back counterclockwise *one mm*. I left it like that because the instructions that came with the tension arm said to move it fully clockwise with some force, put the spring on the pin, and your done (nothing abut manually moving it counterclockwise). The only way that new tension arm moves counterclockwise that I can see, is if I put a hex key in it and manually do it. My assumption here is that there must be enough significant force from the belt to push that arm counter clockwise at some time; otherwise the spring would not be necessary to counter the counterclockwise movement.
Again, so very sorry for the long tread. I will greatly appreciate if you would care to comment on my items 1, 2 and 3 above (or anything else you might think of).
Regards,
Brcobrem
P.S. I have some new pics and (hopefully) helpful comments about this job that I will be happy to post once I get over this last problem. In the interim, here's one about getting the timing marks aligned that (like myself) I see other people had problems with: The two slotted marks on the cams must be lined up perfectly horizontal (ie. not tilted down at all). I could not get the crank notch and these marks to align after tuning the crank four turns, until an hour later . . . I discovered that when you remove the belt, the cams are still under some tension from the lifters I suppose, and those alignment marks will move downward about one tooth when the belt comes off. You're under the vehicle trying to slide the belt over the tension arm so it will come easily off the crank gear, and you don't notice the cam marks have moved slightly. Following is a (after the fact) pic of my left hand and right hand pushing downward on each cam (not much force required). THE BELT SHOULD NOT BE ON AS SHOWN HERE! Have an assistant tap in a little block of wood to keep the cams sprung back in proper position once the wrenches are removed. AGAIN, DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE BELT ON THE CAMS! This pic was taken after I had put the belt back on correctly. And by all means, do not forget to tap out that piece of wood once the belt is back on the cams! Note that the cams can't spring back out of horizontal because they'd have to crush that piece of wood:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/cams^_spread^_and^_block^_of^_wood^_inserted.jpg
Hope that helps.
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1. How is the car running?
2. was the whine present before you did the timing belt?
3. When you say the tensioner didn't move back at all, do you mean that there was no resistance pulling it back? Is the spring tight, or can it be moved around on the pin?
From what I'm reading, it sounds like maybe your new tensioner is bad, and maybe the bearing inside is causing a whining sounds. The only other way to check this would be to take the plastic timing covers off, replace the valve cover, and run the car with the belt exposed so that you can pinpoint the noise. Good luck.
P.S. - For the camshaft problem, I just installed mine with the marks pointing slightly downward. then, when I put tension on the belt with the tension, it pulled the marks up level. But to each his own
Hi there, Brcobrem...(2thumbs)
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics... I'll have to have a look-see when I get back home today...
But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics...
I'll have to have a look-see when I get back home today...But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
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Hi there, Brcobrem...(2thumbs)
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics...
But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
But if I'm understanding his original statement right, he's getting little to no resistance from the tension after the spring is attached (maybe I misunderstood him). For that reason, and because of the whining, I thought maybe his tensioner was shot and the bearing or something was causing that whine.
Could be...
Well, what I am thinking... If he has no resistance from the tension, his belt would have skipped a beat of two, and he would have much more problems than just the whining noise...
The best way of "long distance" troubleshooting is for him to tape this noise and tensioner problem, and put it on YT or somewhere else on the web, and then, we can say more...
would you agree???
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Yeah, it's a lot easier to diagnose a sound by listening to it. As far as the tensioner, that's why I was asking how his car is running - if it's missing and running like crap in general, then that supports the idea that the entire tensioner itself may be shot. If not, it's something less serious.
I guess we can't do much more until that guy gets back on here. Geez, I need to get a life
Yeah, it's a lot easier to diagnose a sound by listening to it. As far as the tensioner, that's why I was asking how his car is running - if it's missing and running like crap in general, then that supports the idea that the entire tensioner itself may be shot. If not, it's something less serious.
I guess we can't do much more until that guy gets back on here. Geez, I need to get a life
Yeah... btw, what's the time over there right now???
And what's the weather like???
As I am writing this, it is 5 in the afternoon...
And, here it is a bit snowy and a bit below freezing... but they say plenty more snow to come....(hand)
I am planning to do the oil change on my 323 (protege) and my wife's car as well, but as far as the weather is concerned:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2356/77523832.jpg[/URL]
I thing I'll wait for the spring to come...
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1. How is the car running?
2. was the whine present before you did the timing belt?
3. When you say the tensioner didn't move back at all, do you mean that there was no resistance pulling it back? Is the spring tight, or can it be moved around on the pin?
From what I'm reading, it sounds like maybe your new tensioner is bad, and maybe the bearing inside is causing a whining sounds. The only other way to check this would be to take the plastic timing covers off, replace the valve cover, and run the car with the belt exposed so that you can pinpoint the noise. Good luck.
P.S. - For the camshaft problem, I just installed mine with the marks pointing slightly downward. then, when I put tension on the belt with the tension, it pulled the marks up level. But to each his own
Hi slavrenz,
So very sorry about the delayed reply. My work has occupied my full time for the last couple days. I'll reply to everyone's replies individually with messages quoted to help relieve confusion. Here goes:
Answering your questions:
1. The car runs perfectly.
2. The whine was not present before I did the timing belt.
3. Fyi, this is a brand new tensioner (and the other roller is new too). I used the hex key to rotate the tensioner fully clockwise so that I could easily slip the spring over the pin on the block without having to stretch the spring. Yes, I got it into the little groove too. I then used the hex key to move the tensioner counter-clockwise (maybe a quarter inch) a bit to put a little tension on the spring because I was afraid that the spring would fall off the pin with almost no tension on it at all.
You said, "From what I'm reading, it sounds like maybe your new tensioner is bad . . .".
Fyi, I kept the old tensioner and idle roller just in case.
You said, "P.S. - For the camshaft problem, I just installed mine with the marks pointing slightly downward . . .".
I did it your way a couple times and every time I put the belt over the tensioner and turned the crank 4 complete turns, when the cam marks were exactly horizontal, the crank mark was then one tooth worths clock wise of the mark on the block. Perhaps if I introduced one tooth's worth of slack on the belt between the cams (when the marks were pointed down a little, your method would have worked for me). Like you said, to each his own and I respect that comment. My way of "spreading the cams" was the only way that day that I could make all three marks line up after spinning it 4 turns. Btw, I have a tech doc from an on line Chilton that shows some special little toothed locker thing that you are supposed to insert between the cams (like I did with the wood) before you remove the belt. That's how I finally come up with me home brew solution.
I'll move on to the other replies now.
Thanks so much for your continuing assistance.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Hi there, Brcobrem...(2thumbs)
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics...
But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
Hi Gozz,
First of all, your English and grammar is as good or even better than that of myself and most of the people around my town here in the USA
I like your idea for making that tool too
When you get a chance, check out the pic I posted where I used a socket extension. Hope my method didn't press down to hard on the crank bearing :-(You said, "If you were to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on...."
Respectfully, it is not impossible, and quite easy (as the last step) to slip the belt over the tension arm roller (when the spring is at the position where it is almost loose). I do appreciate your comment though, and will try your method with "some slack" on the belt between the cams if I have to go over this again. Let you know how that goes if I go there again.
Regarding the tensioner, you said, "So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...".
If I have to take off that crank pulley again to get that bottom plastic cover off (to do a sound check on the various parts with a hose in the ear), you bet I'm going to take a good look at that tensioner to see f it ever moved counter clockwise from where I installed it. Thanks for the detailed examples of how that thing is supposed to work.
You said, "1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or...".
I'm not so sure that that is not the problem. Note my comments in the other reply to slavrenz about having to manually turn it counter clockwise a bit to make sure the spring stayed on.
You said, "2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm... Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...".
I drove it about 10 miles the day I had the job done, and it has been parked since. Before driving it again, I was anxious to get back to this forum to see what you all had to say about the whining nose. I'm going to put it back on the road and drive it. Tomorrow, I'll also get a friend's ipod that records sound and video and upload an mpg4/avi/wmi file for you to review. I tried to do this with my Blackjack phone, but I couldn't get the sound file off of it to upload (and the sound quality was lousy at best).
Thank you again for putting up with me on this new issue. I appreciate your helpful assistance.
Regards,
Brcobrem
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Hi again gozz and slavrenz,
When I put the belt on, and slipped it over the tensioner, I used the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise and put the tensioner's spring hole almost directly under the pin (making it easy to slip the spring on the pin with pin slot). The spring was slightly loose on the pin, so I then used the key to manually turn the tensioner counter clockwise a little so that the pin would not vibrate off. Btw, I did not ever over-stretch the new spring.
I continue to be grateful for your help and will get a video with sound up for you all tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Long story short, once that spring is on the pin, you should not have to manually rotate it again to get tension on the belt - it should be pretty freakin' taut on its own. I still think maybe there's a problem with the new tensioner, like maybe the internal spring mechanism is busted.
I hope you get this figured out.
Hi!
I am swamped here at work, so I'll reply later today...
Meanwhile, try to tape the sound and put it on the web so we can see more clearly what's going on...
Hi slavrenz,
Let me clarify this: To get the spring on the pin, I use the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise. Yes, turning the tensioner clockwise that far puts very much tension on the belt.
Once the spring is on (the belt is still very tensioned now), I used the key once again to rotate the tensioner counter clockwise about 1/4" to keep the spring from falling off the pin (it was on the pin, but very loose on there). This make the belt slightly less tensioned.
Thanks for your reply. I'll get that video up in about 6 hours from now.
Regards,
Brcobrem
I ma afraid you took the wrong approach here...
Here's what you should do:
WITHOUT the belt on, you should use the hex wrench to turn it clockwise -> put the spring on -> put the belt on -> rotate the hex wrench counter clockwise just enough to slip the belt underneath the tensioner -> remove the hex wrench and let the spring do it's magic...
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Hi gozz,
I agree that your method described here would be one way of doing it. In fact, your method might give a more accurate final counter clockwise position for the tensioner. That said, I followed the directions enclosed with the Dayco P/N 95228 timing belt. I have scanned that and uploaded a pdf here (left click on the little blank page icon and click the "Open" button):
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Dayco^_PN^_95228^_timing^_belt^_instructions.pdf
So for better or for worse, I did do it by the book.
I was able to get a little video on this uploaded also (after I learned how to use an iPod video converter today). Here's the link for the mp4 (RealPlayer plays mp4 files). To see the video you have to left click on the mp4 file and press the "Open" button:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Whining^_noise^_after^_timing^_belt^_replacement.mp4
It's Friday afternoon here now. I just canceled a work appointment a had scheduled for tomorrow. I'm feeling like I'm going to get some more practice removing and installing that crank pulley again (nailbyt)
Thanks again for your and everyone's help. I'll check the forum again later tonight and tomorrow morning before getting the tools out again.
Regards,
Brcobrem
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Uh, oh, I've just heard the clip, and it is definitely not a tensioner noise.
First, it might be a long shot, but just to be on a safe side, make sure that it is not the power steering pump making the noise. Remove thew P/S belt and see... As I recall, you've mentioned you have done that already, but do it again, just to be safe, because P/S pumps are known of making the same noise when out of P/S fluid or close to their deaths...(hand)
Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBo53WSzAGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuwGTHs9BXs&feature=related
OK, now if the P/S pump is out of the question, it is DEFINITELY the timing belt rubbing it's side (teeth) against either a pulley or the engine block or maybe the freakin' plastic protectors....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpifrCDORHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubydLtwPDqo&feature=related
Ok, I have uploaded for you a segment of Mazda Service manual, so you can see and read through a proper procedure of replacing the belt...
http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=468CA0B81
Read it, study it and dig under the hood...
As I replaced the belt on my protege, it has not whined for one bit... (so shouldn't yours)....
my baby:
http://img268.imageshack.us/i/maz2mqq.jpg/
http://img268.imageshack.us/i/maz3.jpg/
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Hi gozz,
First thing I did when I heard that noise was to disengage the accessory belts and start it up: the noise still persisted. Thanks for those pump noise links. I'll put that in my book of things to remember.
The second link for the timing belt noise sounds exactly like the problem I'm having. Good thing I didn't put the tools away yet.
Thanks also for that service manual excerpt. I'll be using that today.
Nice pics of your ride! I'll have to upload a couple vehicle shots when I get the problem put to rest.
Btw, here's a cool free spell checker for Internet Explorer. You just highlight your text, right click and choose Check Spelling. I been using it for years every time I post:
http://www.iespell.com/
Let you know how it goes today/tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
First thing I did when I heard that noise was to disengage the accessory belts and start it up: the noise still persisted. Thanks for those pump noise links. I'll put that in my book of things to remember.
The second link for the timing belt noise sounds exactly like the problem I'm having. Good thing I didn't put the tools away yet.
Thanks also for that service manual excerpt. I'll be using that today.
Nice pics of your ride! I'll have to upload a couple vehicle shots when I get the problem put to rest.
Btw, here's a cool free spell checker for Internet Explorer. You just highlight your text, right click and choose Check Spelling. I been using it for years every time I post:
http://www.iespell.com/
Let you know how it goes today/tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
