The numbers are out !!

There is not a car in this world who's standing start time to 60 is not slower than it's off the line time. IF you lost a race to a car rolling at 5 mph while you were sitting, you lost it because he rolled PAST you at 5 mph, thus got a head start enough to make up the time difference. However, if you were on the line and he rolled up to it at 5 mph then you both gunned it (impossible to time), You would beat him hands down.

The what's and why's of this are simple. How many RPM's do you figure the car is turning when it's rolling at 5 mph. 600, 700? What happens when you launch a car like the MSP properly? Drop the clutch at about 4000, right? Where does an engine like the one in the MSP make power? At 600, 700 RPM? Nope. Up in the rev range, where the guy who is launching off the line is spooling.

The only car's whose standing start numbers are close to their off the line numbers are large displacement engines, those that make a ton of torque at low RPM's and don't have to rev to make their power. I bet the MSP on a standing start couldn't even break it's tires loose.

There is nothing BS about that article. You are just clearly misunderstanding what is involved in launching the car vis a vis an of the line situation vs. the standing start.

You can argue this until your face turns blue, but I will just break out factual statistics. That, and if you want, I will gladly race you, and you can have your standing start.

My former 95 Z28 was a blast to launch at 5 mph on a standing start, because it had the torque to break the tires loose and went like mad. My 10AE Miata is useless on a standing start, because it bogs, and that little 1.8 litre doesn't make power until at least 4000 RPM.

Centrifigual force, resistance, all play a part in this.

Anyway, 'nuff said. Maybe you should go write for Car and Driver?

Cheers!

Bryan
 
600 to 700 rpm @ 5mph are you nuts. Cars idle at 750 to 850 rpm.

@ 5 mph you would be doing at least 1500- 1800 rpm and instantly hit 2500 as soon as you floor it.

Torque is what gets you moving not HP.

You rev your car up to 4000 rpm and dump it and you sit and spin.


The 2.0 turbo engine makes max torque @ 4500.

How fast can you go in first gear, before you hit redline?
30 to 35 mph maybe.

Another thing I think is off, is the HP numbers.

1 psi of boost equals 8% increase in HP.

That gives a figure of 140 base - 11.2 hp for each psi of boost.
11.2 X 6.9 psi = 77.28 HP 140 + 77.28= 217.28

I don't know if their figures are WHP or CHP. But it does seem to work out with 18% Driveline loss.

Which is exactly the number of HP all the other MP3s that have been turboed and push 7 psi.

Also turbos do not produce HP. They only produce torque and hp is a calcualtion of torque. Max Torque @ 4500

Thats my 2 cents.
 
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I love arguments like this.

A car idles at 750 - 800, I agree, but that is because there is no resistance as far as the driveline goes, so it is free to do it's thing. However, engage the clutch, give it no gas, and the car is rolling (5 mph!), there is resistance, the engine is turning slower. I don't know what you have done to your timing to make it turn so quick at 5 mph (1500??).

Then you go and defeat your own argument before you even start it! I love it!

You are right, TORQUE is what gets you moving, and look at where the torque peaks on the MSP. 4500 RPM. You said it yourself.

So, Realistically, you are rolling at 5 mph (foot is NOT on the gas), you floor it, take engine about .7 to .8 of a second AT LEAST to get up to 3000 RPM, still have not hit the torque peak. However, your buddy next to you who is popping the clutch at 4000 is at his torque peak right NOW and he's gone, while you are still climbing.

As for sitting and spinning, actually, no. Sure, in a large displacement engine with way too much hp, but in something like this, and ditto for my Miata, the tires will spin for a split second, grab, and you are off to the races. If you want to see a Miata launched at 4000 rpm, come visit me, I'll show you, spin for a second and you are gone. Neither the 1.8 litre in the Miata nor the 2.0 litre in the MSP have enough power to break their tires loose for a long burnout.

I won't even touch the psi calculations. If the numbers are off, they got them from Mazda, call them and complain. What with your boost knowledge, you should also go work for Mazda. :rolleyes:

Cheers!

Bryan
 
The article states 5 mph roll is 1000 rpm, so I was off, but I was only guessing.


I have a MP3 and I can rev and dump and spin first till no tommorrow, and have to let off the gas to get the car to move forward.


So I assure you, the car will sit and spin and lose the race.


Maybe this car bites better bcause of the LSD, they didn't give any info on what rpm they launched at.

Maybe they did a traffic stop type start, which is the quickest way on radials to acheive the best ET possible.

I just want to see someone else test this car, I personally think it should be faster than it is, that is all.


Another point we forgot to address, is this engine is brand new and probadly isn't broken in yet, so I would assume it is not producing the amount of power they cliam, I would like to see this car tested with 10,000 miles on it. I bet it runs a 14.5, everyone else with turbos are.
 
Nick said:

1 psi of boost equals 8% increase in HP.

That gives a figure of 140 base - 11.2 hp for each psi of boost.
11.2 X 6.9 psi = 77.28 HP 140 + 77.28= 217.28

I don't know if their figures are WHP or CHP. But it does seem to work out with 18% Driveline loss.

Which is exactly the number of HP all the other MP3s that have been turboed and push 7 psi.


i dont know anything about anything. Can some more of your tuning/turbo vetrans weigh in? is there any truth to this? Probably just wishful thinking on my part, but C&D sure didnt seem to dyno the car, more like they put mazda's specs mixed in with a couple numbers of their own.

Despite all my wishful thinking and speculation, I am counting on 170chp. If mazda could have thrown a number at the press like 200hp, im sure they would have. It sure would have helped their zoom zoom image, and probably gotten them a higher ranking on the Automobile magazine's top cars of 2003 or whatever. I understand the counterpoint that a hp advertisement of 200+ would have drawn comparisons to the wrx which it cant, and shouldnt be compared to (even if the engines were the same the awd would kill fwd ont he launch) but still, im not expecting anything over 175 when it is dynoed .
 
Actually, the FWD vs. AWD on the launch thing is kind of a toss up. Problem with the High HP AWD cars is getting the launch 'just right' and slipping the clutch enough to let the wheels spin and get the car off the line without bogging. I have watched a lot of WRX's get spanked in a straight line because the drivers flat out did not know how to launch them.

Then we get into the WRX's weak link, the tranny, which supposibly is quite easy to bust after repeated high RPM clutch drops.

Just a thought, but a 220 hp MSP would probably beat a WRX in a straight line.

Bryan
 
WHP numbers are out.....

I'm not sure if anyone else had posted about this yet, but I just got the lastest issue of Sport Compact Car and they dyno'd the MS-P. Here's what they got to the wheels...

151 hp @ 5800 rpm
155 lb-ft @ 3800 rpm

I must admit that these numbers are very impressive. If you do the calculations, there is very little drivetrain loss. SCC was able to rip off a 7.1 0-60 and a 15.3 1/4 mile. What is your guys take on this. I for one am very happy with those numbers and would be more than happy with the Mazdaspeed turbo kit, if they make one available. So let's hear it fellas, what are your opinions
 
i subscribe to SCC and didnt get that issue yet:mad:

what was their overall take on the car? what did they have to say about it? etc..etc.... what month issue is it?
 
It's October issue. They think that overall, it is one the most complete cars "from the factory", that they've had the opportunity drive. They even say it's better than the Type R in some aspects, which we all know is quite a nice thing to say about a Protege.:D Hope you get te issue soon.
 
oh yea, and of course at this stage nearly everything is still rumors but my dealer told me that mazda was trying to keep the mazdaspeeds exclusive, and one way they were doing this was to only offer the turbo kit that comes on the MS as a replacement for an existing one. he SAID that they would require a VIN from a MS-P and possibly to take in the old one when giving a replacement. You may not believe this, im just relaying what I was told, and if you do it may sound discouraging but Mazdaspeed is allegedly coming out with performance parts in addition to those on the MS-P and I wouldnt be too suprised if a turbo for proteges was among these performance parts. I could imagine the turbo being more robust than the one on the MS-P to appeal more to tuners and compete with 3rd party turbos, and although that may sound foolish to not allow you to buy the weaker turbo that is on the MS-P but to allow you to but a stronger one through a Mazdaspeed parts line this is exactly the kind of thing I could imagine a car company doing........
 
Nick said:
Has no one noticed a problem with the numbers?

Posted 0-60 MPH 6.9 seconds

Street Start 5-60 mph 8.0


Now think about it, they must be smokin crack.

Its already rolling, so wheel spin is less and its already going 5 mph and its a full second slower. WTF is going on here!!!!!!

I think the article is full of poop:mad:

Just to prove to you that you are HECKA WRONG..hehe Here YA go

www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/1999...&Manufacturer=honda&name=civic&class=42&page5

www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/1999...&Manufacturer=honda&name=civic&class=42&page6
 
I have heard from Mazda reps that it diesn't look like thy will release the turbo system as a kit. They said there were always a possibility of it, but right now, it doesn't look like it. As for getting a replacement one, anypart that is replaced under warranty has to be exchanged. I know this because they wouldn't let me keep my old floor mats.
 
That is one impressive dyno!
More HP to the wheels than my specV and the same tq!

Those are good 60 and 1/4 mile times, same as the specv.

I think it will be a little quicker when you get around 5k on the odo.
 

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