MY Takata's are IN!! finally
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freekwonder
Contributor
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- Datsun 510/Nissan Frontier
I thought you wanted them to go out as straight as you can, and going down like that was dangerous?
There is a recommended angle at which the harness should make with the seat back. I believe Sparco has a good explanation on their website. Either way, the OP's setup is not very safe at all - definitely a risk for spinal compression there. As suggested above - get a harness bar.
like ive said.. this install is nowhere near done.. the angle issue seems to be up for debate?? but, in the interests of safety and shutting some people up, im buying a harness bar anyways.. Just in case!! so that issues done..
the sparco bar itself Im buying is only the 2nd ever sold by speedware motors sports in WA!! for a mazda 6.. thats quite surprising to me?? but, i guess this car just doesnt have a serious track scene for it?? so that will be installed by next week//
the sparco bar itself Im buying is only the 2nd ever sold by speedware motors sports in WA!! for a mazda 6.. thats quite surprising to me?? but, i guess this car just doesnt have a serious track scene for it?? so that will be installed by next week//
SilversunMSP
Member
If you intend on using these on a track get a harness bar or have one fabricated. The mounting location for the straps should not be where you have them. The straps mounting location should be even with your shoulders or at least 3-6 inches lower (depending on sanctioning body tech/safety rules). Harnesses and even the regular seat belts are designed to prevent the rapid forward motion of your body. With the straps mounted where you have them, in the event of a crash your body will move downward and cause COMPRESSION OF YOUR SPINE leading to far worse injury.
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thanks for your concern.. really.. but, TAKATA has issues with what you just said.. so id ask them about it?? they sell this harness to be installed the way I installed it.. I cant enter into a debate that youre having with them or their product.. It was installed as directed.. Im not, and dont claim to be an expert on racing harnesses etc.. but, the opinions are everywhere on this subject?? Im pretty sure youre talking about regular seats where people put the straps under their headrests?? these are harness specific recaros.. theres no way for the harness to move down unless the seat itself splits in half?? and even though its not mentioned here?? I do have a custom harness bar coming.. its only the 2nd sold in the US for a mazda 6?? quite surprising to be honest.. its from sparco/speedware.. ill be doing a completed install thread when the bar is in and the airbag lights are fixed.. im also getting some schroth gear?? this will be tight ass instal when its done.. trust me..
Turninconcepts
Member
There's all kinds of wrong with that install and if Takata says that is how they should be installed I would run away screaming as you risk death in a serious accident.
1. As mentioned, the angle is all wrong on the shoulder belts. It seems like you acknowledge this and are going to take steps to fix it. That being said, a harness bar is not the way to fix it and should NEVER be used on track as they are not strong enough. I have had a Sparco harness bar built by speedware motorsports literally fall apart due to crappy welding. I have seen other do this as well. Bottom line, a harness bar is NOT strong enough to stay in place in the event of a roll over and WILL lead to potential spinal compression.
Another interesting point to be made about how you have the belts run is that the Evo seats WILL NOT hold construction in a crash and cannot be used as a replacement for a caged harness bar. the Evo seats failed the Schrothe testing which is why there is no bolt in quick fit harness from Schrothe.
2. You cannot safely run anti submarining belts like you have them without the crotch hole in the seat. In the event of a front end collision those anti sub belts will do NOTHING for you. Your crotch will slide directly to the front of the seat which will crush your legs. Without the hole in the bottom of the seat the only somewhat acceptable anti sub belt mount would be to mount the ends back where the lap belts are mounted and run them under your legs (when in the car you would be sitting on the sub belt) then connect the end to the center latch. That will keep you from sliding forward in a front end collision.
2.a. I would be curious to see how you have the anchor points mounted. If you have them bolted in they need to have LARGE safety washers on either side of the sheet metal. If you have quick release style ends on the belts where they connect to the eyelets you need to have cotter pins or safety wire through the holes to keep the latch from opening.
Bottom line, and some will definitely disagree with me on this, if you do not have a fully caged car (none of that Cusco bolt in garbage) and properly installed harnesses you are FAR more safe running the factory 3 point belt. Bottom line. The way that setup is now, I would not go anywhere near it on street or track unless I had a death wish.
I'm not trying to be an ass here. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt over something of perceived safety.
Tony
1. As mentioned, the angle is all wrong on the shoulder belts. It seems like you acknowledge this and are going to take steps to fix it. That being said, a harness bar is not the way to fix it and should NEVER be used on track as they are not strong enough. I have had a Sparco harness bar built by speedware motorsports literally fall apart due to crappy welding. I have seen other do this as well. Bottom line, a harness bar is NOT strong enough to stay in place in the event of a roll over and WILL lead to potential spinal compression.
Another interesting point to be made about how you have the belts run is that the Evo seats WILL NOT hold construction in a crash and cannot be used as a replacement for a caged harness bar. the Evo seats failed the Schrothe testing which is why there is no bolt in quick fit harness from Schrothe.
2. You cannot safely run anti submarining belts like you have them without the crotch hole in the seat. In the event of a front end collision those anti sub belts will do NOTHING for you. Your crotch will slide directly to the front of the seat which will crush your legs. Without the hole in the bottom of the seat the only somewhat acceptable anti sub belt mount would be to mount the ends back where the lap belts are mounted and run them under your legs (when in the car you would be sitting on the sub belt) then connect the end to the center latch. That will keep you from sliding forward in a front end collision.
2.a. I would be curious to see how you have the anchor points mounted. If you have them bolted in they need to have LARGE safety washers on either side of the sheet metal. If you have quick release style ends on the belts where they connect to the eyelets you need to have cotter pins or safety wire through the holes to keep the latch from opening.
Bottom line, and some will definitely disagree with me on this, if you do not have a fully caged car (none of that Cusco bolt in garbage) and properly installed harnesses you are FAR more safe running the factory 3 point belt. Bottom line. The way that setup is now, I would not go anywhere near it on street or track unless I had a death wish.
I'm not trying to be an ass here. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt over something of perceived safety.
Tony
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seriously.. thanks for your input.. like i said the opinions Ive gathered are all over the place on this issue?? ive gotten far more than one opinion on this.. but, everything drives this discussion under.. you see.. this is not a full time track car so driving around with a full roll cage(which is illegal in CA) doesnt make sense unless youre gonna wear a helmet fulltime.. and TAKATA makes all the seats and brackets for the stock seats on this car.. so It would seem they know what theyre doing?? and this information is posted on their website!! ill be sending this link to TAKATA & SPEEDWARE hopefully hell(speedware) will be able to register and comment??
Like I said Im NOT a profesional and REALLY DO value your input.. but, please understand ive gotten the exact opposite opinion from other members on this and other forums... so this is just plain confusing to me?? as ive been to several tracks, several times and seen this exact set-up 100s of times?? I have no idea who to listen to.. so dont feel like im trying to dispute you.. Im just learning here.. thanks..
Like I said Im NOT a profesional and REALLY DO value your input.. but, please understand ive gotten the exact opposite opinion from other members on this and other forums... so this is just plain confusing to me?? as ive been to several tracks, several times and seen this exact set-up 100s of times?? I have no idea who to listen to.. so dont feel like im trying to dispute you.. Im just learning here.. thanks..
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- 2011 Mustang GT
Well, that's the nature of the beast. You put up pics of your setup, and people are going to criticize it one way or another. If you're not comfortable with that, don't post it for all to see.
While I'm not 100% sure on the intricacies of the install, I'd think if more than one person were concerned with my safety of spinal compression and other serious injury, I'd reconsider. Also, no matter what 'other forums' have said about it, safety is something we all can agree on. I wouldn't **** around with that.
However, it's your car, you do as you please. Don't take it so personal when people tell you things you don't want to hear.
thanks for the info tony!! im still a little confused?? but, really, Im no wuss, and im cool with the criticisms and this debate is no problem for me.. Im open to anyones input.. and Ive already admitted to not being a safety pro.. im just plain confused on this one??
but, that last comment basically said anything short of a roll cage is a waste?? so why make the belts and the bars?? and I DONT believe for a minute a company as large as Takata makes a product that has no usefullness whatsoever?? id really love to get a serious professional opinion on this.. and for anyone just throwing in their 2 cents, please save it for a subject you understand.. this isnt a BOV question..
Im just asking out loud here: but, no one has remotely explained this spinal issue at all?? isnt the threat of being tossed out of the car greater than spinal compression?? and REALLY I DONT KNOW THE ANSWER?? thats why this thread is up.. some guys here are way too certain of their own opinion.. and that just makes learning impossible for me.. ive gotten opinions running both ways.. and I dont value any forum over another.. im just saying this isnt the only forum this is being discussed on..
hopefully this is helping to inform anyone looking into this kind of install.. I wish i had read this thread earlier!!
but, that last comment basically said anything short of a roll cage is a waste?? so why make the belts and the bars?? and I DONT believe for a minute a company as large as Takata makes a product that has no usefullness whatsoever?? id really love to get a serious professional opinion on this.. and for anyone just throwing in their 2 cents, please save it for a subject you understand.. this isnt a BOV question..
Im just asking out loud here: but, no one has remotely explained this spinal issue at all?? isnt the threat of being tossed out of the car greater than spinal compression?? and REALLY I DONT KNOW THE ANSWER?? thats why this thread is up.. some guys here are way too certain of their own opinion.. and that just makes learning impossible for me.. ive gotten opinions running both ways.. and I dont value any forum over another.. im just saying this isnt the only forum this is being discussed on..
hopefully this is helping to inform anyone looking into this kind of install.. I wish i had read this thread earlier!!
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Turninconcepts
Member
If I didn't own a shop and wasn't involved in building race cars I wouldn't have voiced my opinion so strongly. That being said, that would never pass any kind of safety inspection for taking the car on track.
I'm no doctor, but the quick and dirty behind spinal compression is this. There are soft discs between the vertebrae that make up your spine. These discs protect the bones and the nerves that run through the bones. Under serious compression of the spine the discs can move out of place and pinch off the nerves causing everything from mild numbness in areas of the body to full paralysis of the limbs.
Harness bars are designed and should only be used for autox. They should never been used for any kind of high speed driving.
Something that I didn't post last night is the effect of crashing the car without the stock seat belt. If you don't have the seat belts plugged in when you crash, it affects the way the airbags are released that could potentially cause an unsafe condition or force to be used to deploy. Again, the only way one should ever use a harness on a car would be when the harness plugs into the factory seat belt receptical and has been designed around the factory airbag system (Schrothe) or when the entire airbag system has been removed and the car is completely caged. There is no middle ground on this if you want to be safe. Harnesses are designed for cages, not a quick retrofit.
Tony
I'm no doctor, but the quick and dirty behind spinal compression is this. There are soft discs between the vertebrae that make up your spine. These discs protect the bones and the nerves that run through the bones. Under serious compression of the spine the discs can move out of place and pinch off the nerves causing everything from mild numbness in areas of the body to full paralysis of the limbs.
Harness bars are designed and should only be used for autox. They should never been used for any kind of high speed driving.
Something that I didn't post last night is the effect of crashing the car without the stock seat belt. If you don't have the seat belts plugged in when you crash, it affects the way the airbags are released that could potentially cause an unsafe condition or force to be used to deploy. Again, the only way one should ever use a harness on a car would be when the harness plugs into the factory seat belt receptical and has been designed around the factory airbag system (Schrothe) or when the entire airbag system has been removed and the car is completely caged. There is no middle ground on this if you want to be safe. Harnesses are designed for cages, not a quick retrofit.
Tony
Ive taken apart some regular 6 seats to fix the help with the airbag questions and gather wiring.. the sensor situation is hopefully being worked out entirely?? well see on that.. but, ive found and pulled the wiring for the distance sensors..
like I said this is big time learning experience for me.. and if I could?? Id have the vendor that sold me the harnesses(SU) put in an opinion.. but, theyre a banned vendor here, so i cant ask for their input.. ill be talking to the guy at speedware later today... hopefully that will help a little??
curious here, what exactly is considered high speed??
and since youre a professional, whats the ENTIRE solution in your opinion??
im not trying to be a smart-ass.. but, like i said we CANT have roll cages in CA.. theyre just not legal.. and i wouldnt feel safe in a steel cage without a helmet? so I dont see any options, in your scenario?? am I wrong??
stock or cage thats it?? humm.. sorry but, thats still confusing to me..
like I said this is big time learning experience for me.. and if I could?? Id have the vendor that sold me the harnesses(SU) put in an opinion.. but, theyre a banned vendor here, so i cant ask for their input.. ill be talking to the guy at speedware later today... hopefully that will help a little??
curious here, what exactly is considered high speed??
and since youre a professional, whats the ENTIRE solution in your opinion??
im not trying to be a smart-ass.. but, like i said we CANT have roll cages in CA.. theyre just not legal.. and i wouldnt feel safe in a steel cage without a helmet? so I dont see any options, in your scenario?? am I wrong??
stock or cage thats it?? humm.. sorry but, thats still confusing to me..
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- 2011 Mustang GT
What's with all the question marks on phrases that don't sound like questions?
Yes, those are all actually questions.. sorry about all the question marks?? but, in trying to learn this subject.. im looking for some answers not just comments and opinions.. he said, he does this for a living.. so Im im gonna try and pick his brain a little..
and Tony, once again i do appreciate your opinions and im reading everything you post and trying to understand everything youve said.. unlike 98% of the people on these forums.. I can admit my ignorance on this subject.. and all the input, even educated/professional opinions are appreciated!! im just a little lost on this one..
and Tony, once again i do appreciate your opinions and im reading everything you post and trying to understand everything youve said.. unlike 98% of the people on these forums.. I can admit my ignorance on this subject.. and all the input, even educated/professional opinions are appreciated!! im just a little lost on this one..
Phirephiter76
Member
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- TBD
Ok I understand how those harnesses work but just a fair bit of warning. The angle of your belts in the pic, you run a serious risk of compressing your spine if you were to get hit in the front and especially the rear. Just warning you I think they look cool as hell, but a harness bar and better yet at least a roll hoop with a harness bar would be much safer. And just so you know I'm a paramedic/FF so I have seen what's happens to the people that don't do it right.
Phirephiter76
Member
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- TBD
Reading other posts it is all about the angle of the belts. No matter how tight you have them you will move forward, also remember that they can be to tight if you don't wear a HANS. I can't draw you a pic so use your imagination if you slide forward and the belts are restrained at the wrong angle then you will move forward and down. Down meaning as you go forward the belts will become tighter causing your shoulders to get pushed towards your pelvis. This will cause spine compression and possible paralysis at worst. But you can end up with bulging discs or possible burst discs. This can happen at low speeds you don't have to travle fast. And also high speed is easly described as, you having tonwork to keep the car on the track. So high speed can be as little as 30mph if your doing in a corner you would normally do 10mph. I hope this helps you and understand that we aren't burning you we are looking out for your safety. Sorry for the errors I'm on my phone and I have fat fingers lol
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cool thanks!! and the angle looks more off than it is.. because, I had the seat slid back on that shot.. and I DO already have the harness bar on order.. like I said its only the 2nd one made by Sparco/speedware.. and Im not upset about any critical comments.. but, Im NOT the one making any claims about the safety of this set-up.. that was done by Takata.. and if this set-up isnt safer than the stock 3 point belt system, id be very surprised..
and unless im misunderstanding this subject isnt this spinal compression issue the same thing as just not sitting the seat properly?? ive heard thats how most people get hurt.. not sitting upright, leaning back too far, leg out the window.. etc.. maybe you have some experiences on this??
and thanks for your concern.. I really hope this can be a learning experience and usefull to other 6 drivers as well.. my problems stem from all the IMO crap.. and useless comments..
and does anyone know how exactly the hans belts work?? ive seen those listed.. but, just didnt really understand how they were different?? I am trying to do this right and safely.. if changing the belt is needed.. it can be done.. moneys not my main concern.. im just learning this out loud.. thanks!!!
and unless im misunderstanding this subject isnt this spinal compression issue the same thing as just not sitting the seat properly?? ive heard thats how most people get hurt.. not sitting upright, leaning back too far, leg out the window.. etc.. maybe you have some experiences on this??
and thanks for your concern.. I really hope this can be a learning experience and usefull to other 6 drivers as well.. my problems stem from all the IMO crap.. and useless comments..
and does anyone know how exactly the hans belts work?? ive seen those listed.. but, just didnt really understand how they were different?? I am trying to do this right and safely.. if changing the belt is needed.. it can be done.. moneys not my main concern.. im just learning this out loud.. thanks!!!
freekwonder
Contributor
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- Datsun 510/Nissan Frontier
From Takatas website.
Phirephiter76
Member
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- TBD
The HANS or head and neck restraint system is strictly meant to stop your head from flying forward and your body staying in place. This is what killed Dale Sr. He hit the wall so hard that his head seperated from his body. (at the spine, not like in Luke Skywalkers dream sequence). Don't know much more than that.
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