Round 3!! Snow arrives again.

[Buzzer777]

Sorry Denverish! No Spring just yet...Round 3, heavy snow on the way tonight through tomorrow.
This time we will get a little in the Reno Valleys, which will make driving a mess again. TG for AWD...I usually need AWD just to get up my driveway and into my garage when it snows down here.

OH, Just for a bit of good measure...We had an EARTHQUAKE swarm Last night just to keep everyone up and ready. About 6 small-medium quakes (biggest was a 4.4) within an hour or so about 6 miles from my house. Snow is ok...Quakes not so much! BLEH!

 

[MikeM.]

TG for AWD...I usually need AWD just to get up my driveway and into my garage when it snows down here.

Without having the benefit of seeing your driveway, I bet a FWD CX-5 with good winter tires handled would go right up it in most winter conditions. All season radials, not so much.

 

[ALafya]

Just returned from a trip to Tahoe through the storm which hit the area through Monday (and a bit on Tuesday).
Highway 50 over the summit was clogged with multiple spin-outs. I believe that most cases were due to or exacerbated by bad tire choices. On the summit area, an SUV could not manage to move despite its 4WD, while the rest of the cars moved just fine. While going down to the Tahoe basin, very slowly because of the clogged highway, I saw a car slide sideways when it had to stop. Other cars did not slide. In this situation, AWD will help you none. People which were stuck there would need to wait many hours before a tow truck will come, because there was barely any movement in either direction.

 

[52804x4]

As of right now, they are calling for snow on Saturday (40% chance). That's all the white s*** I see in the 10day forecast! (cabpatch)

 

[ALafya]

Monument peak photos from our trip

 

[AllezDada]

71 degrees here in Maryland.

No snow here . . .

 

[katman]

Without having the benefit of seeing your driveway, I bet a FWD CX-5 with good winter tires handled would go right up it in most winter conditions. All season radials, not so much.

In N. NV, a SUV with fwd is a huge waste of money. I live 30 miles away from Reno (Carson City), I had 6" of snow, cx5 did great. I have Conti true contact, which are far superior to the stock tires, great traction. Even did pretty good an hour ago, when the roads were covered with ice, getting snow dusted.

 

[MikeM.]

In N. NV, a SUV with fwd is a huge waste of money. I live 30 miles away from Reno (Carson City), I had 6" of snow, cx5 did great. I have Conti true contact, which are far superior to the stock tires, great traction. Even did pretty good an hour ago, when the roads were covered with ice, getting snow dusted.

I have the Continental Extreme Contact DWS on my Volvo S80 and they are pretty good in the snow (for an all season radial). The "DWS" stands for "Dry, Wet, Snow". But still, they are a long ways from offering the snow/ice traction of a real winter tire. They will do pretty well in fresh, dry snow but that is one of the least demanding winter conditions you might encounter. Those tires will fail miserably in the kind of extreme winter conditions we encounter on a regular basis in the North Cascades. Specifically, certain kinds of glaze ice followed by warm snow with a layer of water between the two. And that's just one example of many.

In really demanding conditions a FWD SUV with four winter tires will out-perform an AWD SUV with all season radials. The real waste is an AWD SUV trying to make do in demanding winter conditions with only all-season radials.

 

[katman]

Nope, your dead wrong, totally . Fwd is a stupid waste of money. You can give anecdotes of dedicated snows vs these conti
Tires, but it means nothing.
Here is fact- if you have fwd with dedicated snows, the CHP won't let you drive anywhere with out chaining up, if there
is snow on the ground . The awd with half worn all seasons will be waved on while the fool with the fwd cx5 and new blizzacks will have to find a set of chains and install them.

 

[ALafya]

the CHP won't let you drive anywhere with out chaining up, if there
is snow on the ground . The awd with half worn all seasons will be waved on while the fool with the fwd cx5 and new blizzacks will have to find a set of chains and install them.

Yes, and then you find them stuck on a ditch blocking traffic for hours.

Caltrans traction requirements are:

Requirement One (R1): Chains or snow tread tires required. Snow tires must have a tread depth of 6/32" with a "M & S" imprint on the tire's sidewall.

Requirement Two (R2): Chains required on all vehicles except four-wheel drives or all-wheel drives with snow tread tires on all four wheels. NOTE: four-wheel and all-wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas)

Requirement Three (R3): Chains are required on all vehicles, no exceptions.

First, they only require M&S, which pretty much any all-season tire is, but they don't enforce this (try looking for the M&S mark in the dark).
Second, they never enforce the tread depth requirement.
Third, they never go to R3, they simply close the road.

People do buy AWD so they will not endure the inconvenience of chains, but this is because the rules are stuck in the past.

 

[MikeM.]

Nope, your dead wrong, totally . Fwd is a stupid waste of money. You can give anecdotes of dedicated snows vs these conti
Tires, but it means nothing.

My advice isn't based on anecdotal information - it's based upon over 30 years of winter driving in over 50 different vehicle/tire combinations while carrying loads varying from ski area employees, ski area food/beverage supplies and recreational skiers/snowboarders/mountaineers. I was paid to drive in some of the worst winter conditions imaginable including at Whitefish Ski Area in Montana and the snowiest skis area in the world, Mt. Baker. At Mt. Baker our regular Thursday night run would always happen hours after the last snowplow had been retired for the evening. During windy winter storms we often had to punch through snow drifts 2-3 feet deep, covering the road illuminated only by our headlights, looking much like a story sea of whitecaps. I did this in 4x4 pickups outfitted with the best snow tires money could buy and loaded with 3-6 full beer kegs, up to 1000 lbs of sugar syrup (soda pre-mix) and the remaining room in the bed stacked high with other assorted food items. The crew cab was typically filled with other ski area employees headed to the employee lodge for a weekend of work deep in the North Cascades. There still is no cell reception on this section of highway. At the Montana ski area my regular duties included shuttling lodge guests up to the base of the lifts in the shuttle van. I would often make 5 or 6 trips/morning. This is in addition to any driving in my personal vehicle to back-country winter access points and visits to neighboring ski areas to satisfy my powder addictions. This entailed travel in the best (worst?) winter storms of the season and driving as far as we dared on unmaintained winter roads.

The waste of money is not FWD, it's an AWD vehicle purchased for winter conditions with all-season radials! A car outfitted for winter conditions needs winter tires. And this is true regardless of FWD or AWD because AWD only helps forward progress, winter tires help check your speed while descending steep hills. Winter tires keep you out of the 6' deep ditches and winter tires keep you out of the path of on-coming vehicles. I can't say the same for AWD.

Here is fact- if you have fwd with dedicated snows, the CHP won't let you drive anywhere with out chaining up, if there
is snow on the ground .

That's why I purchased an AWD CX-5, to satisfy the asinine rules sometimes enforced by the Highway Patrol. But they can't fix stupid and stupid is thinking AWD somehow substitutes for winter tires. I've seen so many cars rolled over in the ditch, stuck nose first into snowbanks, stranded helplessly sideways in the hairpin turn unable to even turn around and beat a hasty retreat from the nasty conditions and they are ALMOST ALWAYS AWD vehicles outfitted with all season radials. The FWD cars with four winter tires typically navigate merrily around them. This is NOT anecdotal evidence, this is a lifetime of observing and participating in real world situations in one of the snowiest (if not THE snowiest) climates in the world. We also have one of the longest winters around. I think it was three or four years ago the State of Washington never even opened the last section of paved road that is the end of Mt. Baker Highway. Yes, it was covered in deep snow all summer long. Then winter hit again.

The awd with half worn all seasons will be waved on while the fool with the fwd cx5 and new blizzacks will have to find a set of chains and install them.

Don't tell me who the fool is! Because you OBVIOUSLY have it bass-ackwards!

 

[MikeM.]

Yes, and then you find them stuck on a ditch blocking traffic for hours.

(argh)(argh)(lick)(lick)(argh)

People do buy AWD so they will not endure the inconvenience of chains, but this is because the rules are stuck in the past.

Exactly! I knew I needed winter tires but I was on the fence whether I wanted AWD or not. I knew I could go either way (even with our long and active winters) but the chain-up laws convinced me to go ahead and get AWD.

But I curse the drivers who think they are prepared for severe winter storms with their AWD and all-season radials!

 

[katman]

Montana? Big whoop. In N. NV we have these things called the Sierra Nevadas where you can go up 4k' altitude in 20 minutes.
Fact- tire technology has advanced a lot in the last 20 years.The best all seasons of today might equal or surpass the snows of 20 years ago. Does that make those old snows crappy?
Fact- you can put snows on an awd vehicle too if you want (i had studs on my audi quattro)
Fact- if you want, you can always get snows, can't do the same with awd system
Fact- if you don't have awd in CA, you'll have to chain up
Fact- snows can really suck in dry roads.
Fact- you can get a wreck with all seasons, but you can also get in a wreck with snows too
I pointed out that a current state of the art all season (the conti's) performed admirably in the snow and ice. When they no longer can perform well in the snow, they'll even let you know in the tread. Unless you get out of car and eyeball the sidewalls, you have no idea what type of tire is on a car that is on the side of the road.
The myth of story of awd drivers driving crazy and causing all the wrecks is just that, until you can present data. All kids of vehicles can wreck, generallizations are just dumb.

 

[jhu8]

If you are in a snow climate, and need to have dedicated snow tires, I'm buying a vehicle like a Jeep or something where I can put the car in dedicated 4x4 mode. However, I think the majority of us probably live in areas where it snows maybe 2-3 months out of the year and only a few days of each of those months. At least that's how it is here in Maryland. AWD is just much more convenient than having to switch out my tires a couple times a year. And it's not just beneficial in the snow. But also helps with traction in rain, mud, etc. So overall, if I have the option to purchase a vehicle with AWD, it's a no brainer. I still get 30-32mpg on the highway doing 70mph. I'd rather have the security and extra safety that AWD brings to the table for year round driving, than have FWD where I have to switch out my tires a couple times a year.

 

[SugarMouth]

Just returned from a trip to Tahoe through the storm which hit the area through Monday (and a bit on Tuesday).
Highway 50 over the summit was clogged with multiple spin-outs. I believe that most cases were due to or exacerbated by bad tire choices. On the summit area, an SUV could not manage to move despite its 4WD, while the rest of the cars moved just fine. While going down to the Tahoe basin, very slowly because of the clogged highway, I saw a car slide sideways when it had to stop. Other cars did not slide. In this situation, AWD will help you none. People which were stuck there would need to wait many hours before a tow truck will come, because there was barely any movement in either direction.

Totally agree!! A proper tire is the single most important item when driving in winter weather. FWD, RWD, AWD is secondary IMO. Having said that, AWD with Blizzaks sure makes quick work of the snow.

 

[MikeM.]

Totally agree!! A proper tire is the single most important item when driving in winter weather. FWD, RWD, AWD is secondary IMO. Having said that, AWD with Blizzaks sure makes quick work of the snow.

Good summary! I just get tired of the people with AWD and all season radials mucking it up for those of us with real winter tires (and I have AWD or 4x4 on 2 out of three of my 4-wheel vehicles). I can't count the number of hours those ignorant bastards have cost me waiting for their mess to be cleaned up!

I'll tell you this, my FWD Volvo will drive circles around my 4x4 in the snow and ice when I have it's winter tires mounted up!

 

[MikeM.]

Montana? Big whoop. In N. NV we have these things called the Sierra Nevadas where you can go up 4k' altitude in 20 minutes.

I was simply sharing one of the places where I was paid to drive under winter conditions.

Fact- you can put snows on an awd vehicle too if you want (i had studs on my audi quattro)

Really? Please don't insult my intelligence - I HAVE "snows" on my AWD vehicle.

Fact- if you want, you can always get snows, can't do the same with awd system.

Maybe you misunderstood me. I have nothing against AWD or 4 wheel drive, I have two of them. My issue is people who think either one can replace winter rubber. They are the bozos I see holding up the sensible drivers.

Fact- if you don't have awd in CA, you'll have to chain up

So what? I have no issues with AWD. But don't think that because your car is legally equipped to drive without winter tires or chains that it's safely equipped to drive without winter tires or chains.

Fact- snows can really suck in dry roads.

Fact, when it's cold out, most winter tires will out-perform most all season radials.

Fact- you can get a wreck with all seasons, but you can also get in a wreck with snows too

Please don't insult our intelligence. That is not only obvious, it's irrelevant. In the snow and ice your chances of ending up dead or paralyzed drop dramatically due to the increased performance of winter tires.

I pointed out that a current state of the art all season (the conti's) performed admirably in the snow and ice. When they no longer can perform well in the snow, they'll even let you know in the tread.

If you need gimmicks like letters in the tread to know when your tread is losing effectiveness then I don't know what to say. But even a brand new "state of the art" Conti all-season radial sucks on slick, icy roads compared to a real winter tire. I know because I currently drive a car with those silly letters (DWS) in the tread. And they are not comparable to any winter tire I've ever driven on slick ice (not even winter tires from 30 years ago).

Unless you get out of car and eyeball the sidewalls, you have no idea what type of tire is on a car that is on the side of the road.

That's just plain false! Bozos's spin off the road and turn "turtle" all the time around here. It mucks everything up, ambulances and other first responders (with real winter tires I might add) needing to get by on the narrow two-lane undivided highway, long delays and generally only going 5-10 mph past the accident scene. Anyone with normal vision can see whether they have A/T tires (most common), all-season radials (second most common) or winter tires (almost never). Of course sometimes it's dark out or they went over a steep embankment and you simply can't see well enough (or at all) to know what type of tires they have. But generally I can get a good look and it's almost always A/T or all-season radials. And almost always AWD or 4x4. Bozos think A/T tires are good in the snow/ice because they look "aggressive". Somebody needs to educate these neophyte drivers as to what works and what doesn't.

The myth of story of awd drivers driving crazy and causing all the wrecks is just that, until you can present data. All kids of vehicles can wreck, generallizations are just dumb.

I don't need data, I can use my own two eyes and one brain. It doesn't take a computer database for the pattern to emerge loud and clear if you drive treacherous roads often enough.

 

[xvassagox]

Montana? Big whoop. In N. NV we have these things called the Sierra Nevadas where you can go up 4k' altitude in 20 minutes.
Fact- tire technology has advanced a lot in the last 20 years.The best all seasons of today might equal or surpass the snows of 20 years ago. Does that make those old snows crappy?
Fact- you can put snows on an awd vehicle too if you want (i had studs on my audi quattro)
Fact- if you want, you can always get snows, can't do the same with awd system
Fact- if you don't have awd in CA, you'll have to chain up
Fact- snows can really suck in dry roads.
Fact- you can get a wreck with all seasons, but you can also get in a wreck with snows too
I pointed out that a current state of the art all season (the conti's) performed admirably in the snow and ice. When they no longer can perform well in the snow, they'll even let you know in the tread. Unless you get out of car and eyeball the sidewalls, you have no idea what type of tire is on a car that is on the side of the road.
The myth of story of awd drivers driving crazy and causing all the wrecks is just that, until you can present data. All kids of vehicles can wreck, generallizations are just dumb.

just a simple google search of "fwd with snow tires vs awd with all seasons" comes up with plenty of road tests by car magazines. and what do they all agree on? awd with snow > fwd with snow > awd with all season, fact, period. I don't think anyone here is debating the fact that awd is helpful in inclement weather, but rather, they are saying people who have awd with all seasons have an inflated sense of security.

 

[MikeM.]

I don't think anyone here is debating the fact that awd is helpful in inclement weather, but rather, they are saying people who have awd with all seasons have an inflated sense of security.

Exactly! AWD is great for getting you going faster but it does absolutely NOTHING to help you descend steep hills, go around corners or stop safely before a collision. That's what winter rubber does.

 

[Reggae]

What is this snow that you speak of, we have not seen any here on the East Coast....(breakn)