n/a ecu in an msp?

When i ran the supercharger setup, I had the P5 ECU and used the Split Second.

I still had the P5 ecu when running the HiBoost Kit that I have now. I didnt have any problems with this setup. (mostly because it was tuned with the SSAFC) =)
I had recently changed over the the MSP ECU only a few months ago.
 
CR3 Motorsports said:
When i ran the supercharger setup, I had the P5 ECU and used the Split Second.

I still had the P5 ecu when running the HiBoost Kit that I have now. I didnt have any problems with this setup. (mostly because it was tuned with the SSAFC) =)
I had recently changed over the the MSP ECU only a few months ago.
Click to expand...
Assuming your running the ssafc on the msp as well.. How is that running now compared to the n/a Ecu on the ssafc
 
not going to get into a debate about your gtx setup but if you do a lil googling I remember a few guys from back in the day with gtx swapped escort gt's who ran upwards 300whp on 10psi+ awesome motors well capeable of more then the numbers you've got.
Click to expand...

I think you mean 15+ psi as Ive never heard of anyone making 300whp (~350 flywheel) on just 10psi of boost on a 1.8bp. Unless they had a godzilla turbo or some amazing tuning on race fuel /e85 or something.

You would need like 20whp per psi to make 300whp as BPs only have about 100whp to begin with.

For some comparision my buddy Dave's swapped/turbo civic (which you may have seen around highway 7/27 tim hortons) makes around 290whp on 10psi from the same turbo as mine, but he is running a cherry GSR motor with everything you can imagine (tubular exhaust manifold, external tial wastegate, intake/exhaust plumbing i could only dream of making, an aem ems, 94 gas, edelbrock intake manifold etc). and with his much superior build he still couldnt clip 300whp at 10psi.

But you can get the 200-220whp easy on 1.8bp with FWD transmission (less drivetrain loss than awd/rwd) on 10psi even from a smaller turbo. Pretty sure this is about where adam (silex) had his wagon running back in the day on that vj turbo setup. Not sure if you went for a boot with him, but i was very impressed with it, especially since it was a wagon.

And just to make FS guys jealous, pretty sure the highest recorded stock long block BP build was on a girls miata, tuned by corky bell with every bolt on and race gas. 400 flywheel horsepower. Though there is still some debate on how long the motor could have lasted at that level. Some say 1 pass down the 1/4, some say months being DD. but then again who has race gas for DD? Lol



/threadjack.

and as many have said, just get a afc. Throw in some wrx 440s and your FSDE can make good power on pump gas on the stock ecu with the afc/440s.

Once you are making over 200 flywheel the car is alot of fun. You really dont need much more than that for a fun DD. 14s is plenty quick for a DD street car, and from a roll you will keep up with high 13 second cars like wrx, stang gts etc
 
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I was going to comment on this thread when it first started, but his replies were pissing me off. I read all of page one, then skipped to here- is he still arguing?
 
magnumP5 said:
A lot of you guys are being unnecessarily harsh considering NONE of you have any experience with the setup. FWIW, I actually considered swapping my stock P5 ECU back in my old turbo'd P5 (been running a flashed MSP ECU).

I think what the OP was trying to get at was to utilized the slightly more advanced timing of the base N/A ECU WITH some sort of additional engine management (to control fuel and possibly timing) to eek out a little more power. We all know Mazda's tune on these cars was extremely conservative and there's plenty of room for improvement. If the boost is kept relatively low (<12 psi) who's to say you couldn't bump up the timing on a MSP to gain a few HP here and there? I think a N/A ECU along with the SS AFC v3 (which can retard timing) would be a good cheap option for people wanting to alter more than just the air-to-fuel ratios. Before I sold the car I was going to try my N/A ECU, SS AFC v3, and 12 psi on an upgraded stock turbo with water/meth injection.
Click to expand...

Not a single person argued the fact that with management an N/A ecu will work....That's what I currently do...He never stated anything about management in any way and was simply trying to argue that the n/a ecu will work on its own, and then flip flopped all over the road....
 
jeffmsp said:
I think you mean 15+ psi as Ive never heard of anyone making 300whp (~350 flywheel) on just 10psi of boost on a 1.8bp. Unless they had a godzilla turbo or some amazing tuning on race fuel /e85 or something.

You would need like 20whp per psi to make 300whp as BPs only have about 100whp to begin with.

For some comparision my buddy Dave's swapped/turbo civic (which you may have seen around highway 7/27 tim hortons) makes around 290whp on 10psi from the same turbo as mine, but he is running a cherry GSR motor with everything you can imagine (tubular exhaust manifold, external tial wastegate, intake/exhaust plumbing i could only dream of making, an aem ems, 94 gas, edelbrock intake manifold etc). and with his much superior build he still couldnt clip 300whp at 10psi.

But you can get the 200-220whp easy on 1.8bp with FWD transmission (less drivetrain loss than awd/rwd) on 10psi even from a smaller turbo. Pretty sure this is about where adam (silex) had his wagon running back in the day on that vj turbo setup. Not sure if you went for a boot with him, but i was very impressed with it, especially since it was a wagon.

And just to make FS guys jealous, pretty sure the highest recorded stock long block BP build was on a girls miata, tuned by corky bell with every bolt on and race gas. 400 flywheel horsepower. Though there is still some debate on how long the motor could have lasted at that level. Some say 1 pass down the 1/4, some say months being DD. but then again who has race gas for DD? Lol



/threadjack.

and as many have said, just get a afc. Throw in some wrx 440s and your FSDE can make good power on pump gas on the stock ecu with the afc/440s.

Once you are making over 200 flywheel the car is alot of fun. You really dont need much more than that for a fun DD. 14s is plenty quick for a DD street car, and from a roll you will keep up with high 13 second cars like wrx, stang gts etc
Click to expand...


Except I don't have a bp motor I have the b6t lol. Many people have run 400 awhp on the gtr bp motors, but again they're built for boost and power. The fsde was built for cheapness and gas milage and emissions. All of which are what you don't want for a boosted motor, which is why tuning is so important with them
 
magnumP5 said:
A lot of you guys are being unnecessarily harsh considering NONE of you have any experience with the setup. FWIW, I actually considered swapping my stock P5 ECU back in my old turbo'd P5 (been running a flashed MSP ECU).

I think what the OP was trying to get at was to utilized the slightly more advanced timing of the base N/A ECU WITH some sort of additional engine management (to control fuel and possibly timing) to eek out a little more power. We all know Mazda's tune on these cars was extremely conservative and there's plenty of room for improvement. If the boost is kept relatively low (<12 psi) who's to say you couldn't bump up the timing on a MSP to gain a few HP here and there? I think a N/A ECU along with the SS AFC v3 (which can retard timing) would be a good cheap option for people wanting to alter more than just the air-to-fuel ratios. Before I sold the car I was going to try my N/A ECU, SS AFC v3, and 12 psi on an upgraded stock turbo with water/meth injection.
Click to expand...
just in case you missed it, the entire argument started because the OP never mentioned using EMS along with the ECU. He simply brought up the question of using a NA ECU instead of the MSP ECU. That was it, and then later on in the thread brought up using some sort of EMS. If he would have mentioned EMS to start with, this thread would have not gone this far.
IshSonP5 said:
Not a single person argued the fact that with management an N/A ecu will work....That's what I currently do...He never stated anything about management in any way and was simply trying to argue that the n/a ecu will work on its own, and then flip flopped all over the road....
Click to expand...

this^^^^^^^^^
 
IshSonP5 said:
Not a single person argued the fact that with management an N/A ecu will work....That's what I currently do...He never stated anything about management in any way and was simply trying to argue that the n/a ecu will work on its own, and then flip flopped all over the road....
Click to expand...

FWIW, he wasn't arguing that it WOULD work he was arguing that all you guys saying it wouldn't work without explaining why or having any experience of your own. Do any of you know, without a doubt, that a N/A ECU would cause a MSP to blow? You can talk about timing all you want but I'm willing to bet none of you actually know if the timing is advanced enough to be detrimental.

The first response to this thread was unnecessarily crass and devoid of detail. It should have gone something like, "There really isn't any experience with running a N/A ECU unassisted on a MSP but it's been assumed the timing is too advanced and will lead to detonation and possibly engine failure." However, most of you guys would rather play e-thug than be legitimately helpful.
 
e thug? really? Last I check those were the people who sat behind their computer screens threatening each other because they couldn't take a heated discussion. But anyway, honestly, I have seen it. I have a friend who had a boosted p5 that ran the msp setup on his car. He got a MSP ecu from a friend and hated it because of the hesitation and crappy tune. He swapped back to the p5 ecu and no longer has the car now. You can guess why. By the way, that was without a piggyback. I was going to mention that in this thread, but when you post on an online forum asking about something. You don't respond to your inquiry telling others "don't post in my thread if you don't know" on every response you get back. If swapping to na ECUs was the answer, it would have been done years ago. Why do you think most NA guys boosting their cars swap to the MSP ECU. It's better to be safe than sorry. Why risk it? Think about it, it's pointless to swap ECUs if in the end, you are going to end up getting engine management anyway. Just get the EMS to start with and tune off the stock MSP ecu. How are we not being helpful. Everyone who posted gave him the answer he needed. Others who posted even backed up what we were trying to say even more simply by posting what they have done already. We all know in the car world, you have to have thick skin. Discussions like this happen all the time. Some people may come off as being harsh, when it reality, that may just be how they are. Just take it for what it is. Text doesn't have emotions.
 
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No need to name call lol dunno why people are getting all b****y. Ya I didn't mention any management in the first post cause I admitly didn't think of it until after ya it would most likely need it, but it could be easy as said above its easier to add fuel then to take away

I just find it funny because I didn't mention any management that's what everyone is stuck on. Ok, I posted this here to LEARN and get feedback not to be bitched at. I don't know everything and I'm here to learn. Thanks for all the posts guys
 
Hey man, you have to start somewhere. Yeah, this thread got out of hand. But the important thing is you know what you need now. But when it comes to tuning fuel maps, it works both ways. really no easier way. You either add fuel or take fuel. Either way, you are working in increments until you dial it in perfectly. Don't let this thread steer you away from the forum. This is a really great group of people and you will enjoy being here. Lots of info, I will admit, some of it is skewed. But there is always someone here that knows the answer or knows where to get it.
 
Mike, when you get to the point where you can actually modify or alter how fuel and spark are delivered, I can talk in much greater detail about how tuning is a balance act and how to do it.
 
definitely who you need to talk to. ^^^fully built motor and trans, entire car is controlled by standalone ECU(not just tuning parameters) and has a digital dash.
Check it out---> www.mp5t.com
 
IshSonP5 said:
ARE YOU USING MANAGEMENT TO TUNE????? re-read what I said.....
Click to expand...

OF COURSE...Ok i was simply stating i RUN THE SAME ECM AS YOU AND I CAN WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS AND SOUND LIKE A DOUCHE ALSO....lol

funny this thread got people all fired up
 
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Jspeed17 said:
Actually, i did mann....i currently run a n/a p5 ecm, it's a much smoother starting point to begin tuning
Click to expand...

in response to "Not a single person argued the fact that with management an N/A ecu will work...."

Jspeed17 said:
OF COURSE...Ok i was simply stating i RUN THE SAME ECM AS YOU AND I CAN WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS AND SOUND LIKE A DOUCHE ALSO....lol

funny this thread got people all fired up
Click to expand...


I know you have the same ecu.....I wrote nobody said an n/a can't work, with management......your response is now a head scratcher simply for the fact you technically agreed with me while disagreeing... over it. And I'm vinegar flavored if that makes me a better douche? (yes)
 
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My bad IshSon...i misunderstood. Hopefully no one will be tasting flavored douches...lol
 
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