MS3 ECU reflash rumor - is it true?
- Thread starter flyrevs
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BlackJack said:
I just briefly searched some info it. This is not plug and play like Subaru has. That will be far better and more reliable then this it ever comes out. This looks like a major project to install, and a bad risk. Cobb is simply plug in, install, load up, and go. Takes 20 minutes, and anyone with half a brain can install and use it. Not one hint of a problem, perfect tuning. I guess I'll just have to hope Cobb makes one. And 225whp to 280whp with nothing more then ecu programming? I don't buy that. There's gotta be intake and exhaust mods needed. I would have been close to 300whp in my STI if I had simply added the COBB intake and exhaust mod to my Cobb tuner.
$inCitySpeed3
Member
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- Mazdaspeed 3 GT
Well that sucks for you that u cant believe it, it does what it says and there are numerous post on here showing just that, there is a guy in a MS6 that just ran a 13.1 at 104 with just the XEDE and he only cut a 1.8, so you might want to read a little more before you bash it
$inCitySpeed3 said:
I have read enough. The guy that ran that 13.18, has intake and exhaust mods, NOT just the Xede as you claim. I'm talking about taking a bone stock Speed 6, 20 minute install, and 280whp, like the car came that way out of the showroom. No CAI, no exhaust upgrade, just the Xede, and nothing else. Naturally with any additional mods of course I believe it. I believe it, but I don't believe with the stock exhaust and intake, you can add 50+whp just by adding a Xede, not on my Speed 6 and not safely. That exhaust is too restrictive. I'm weery of the long term reliability with the Xede. I don't doubt it's potential. Gotta be plug and play for me. That's why I'll hope and wait for Cobb.
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no, you obviously DONT know how to read. He ran a 13.8 with the intake and exhaust. Then with the XEDE ran a 13.1. If you dont think that .7 seconds off a 1/4 mile time isnt impressive, especially at that level.. you are a moron.MS6S2K said:I have read enough. The guy that ran that 13.18, has intake and exhaust mods, NOT just the Xede as you claim. I'm talking about taking a bone stock Speed 6, 20 minute install, and 280whp, like the car came that way out of the showroom. No CAI, no exhaust upgrade, just the Xede, and nothing else. Naturally with any additional mods of course I believe it. I believe it, but I don't believe with the stock exhaust and intake, you can add 50+whp just by adding a Xede, not on my Speed 6 and not safely. That exhaust is too restrictive. I'm weery of the long term reliability with the Xede. I don't doubt it's potential. Gotta be plug and play for me. That's why I'll hope and wait for Cobb.
(gtfo)
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Nutari said:
No, you obviously don't know how to read, or to think. The intake and exhaust brings the Xede to life. That was my point. They go hand in hand. Just because he went from a 13.8 to a 13.1 with the Xede, it's not 100% the Xede. That intake and exhaust needs to be opened up for that to happen, and he has it opened up. Anyone with half a brain would know how restrictive the Speed 6 exhaust is. If you think that you could pull a bone stock Speed 6 into a dyno. Run the dyno at lets say 220whp stock. Then just install the Xede right there, and add over 50whp safely and effictively, you are the ******* moron.
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- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
i love how much "beer courage" people get when they log into an internet forum.
the exhaust on the car with the XEDE did nothing to "bring it to life". the car still retains the most restrictive elements of the stock exhaust (downpipe, cat, et al) and before and after runs with the car and just the exhaust - no intake mind you - yielded no measurable or better gains over stock. it is in all its effectiveness nothing more than a larger diameter system with a large glass pack and no resonators or mufflers. its not a turboback exhaust by any stretch of the imagination. you can drive the car and easily tell the exhaust is more for sound than it is for any level of performance.
i will readily and 100% agree that the intake is a well designed piece and gives every bit the gain CP-E claims it does, which according to thier site is roughly 11hp. thats not going to exponentially make the XEDE perform so much better than if it were on it's own. we could easily throw the stock airbox back on and see just how much the XEDE does on its own, and if its any slower than 13.5 i'd eat my words. once you reach the 12s and 13s, an intake isn't going to help shave that much off your times, its mathematically and exponentially not possible. its substantially harder to make more power and go faster when you start getting down into that range, its not a linear curve.
look at how the mazdaspeed6 runs stock - the car hits 10 to 1 or richer in boost and richer the higher up into the powerband the car goes. anyone who has done as much forced induction tuning, or more, as i have can tell you that simply leaning the car out across the powerband will free up a good deal of horsepower, much better than any intake or exhaust will do. the XEDE keeps the car in solid 12 to 1 air fuel ratios up to redline in boost. i would normally say this alone would be the key element until you also examine that, prior to the XEDE install, the car would lose power and taper off just before or around 6000rpms. we have managed to alleviate a good deal of that and now there is minimal if any boost fall off all the way to redline. that may not account for peak horsepower, but that would help account for being able to maintain power in each gear, and for that much longer, to better your track time. the car also boosted 15psi stock, give or take. the car now boosts 18psi with an initial spike to 22psi, all while keeping a safe and stable AFR. everything listed above is alot more responsible for a real power gain, especially when you are trying to eke it out getting close to 12s. its easy to break 14s and even 13s, to hit 12s and 11s is exponentially much more difficult, and isn't going to be primarily the work of an 11whp peak cold air intake and a noisier exhaust.
case in point; the ETS top mount intercooler gives 20 peak horsepower on the 2.3 DISI setup, more so than any cold air intake or catback only exhaust. we dynoed the XEDE both with and without the ETS top mount and the difference was barely 10whp at the top of the curve. i am sure you know gains are proportionally cumulative and do not merely add together 2 + 2 = 4.
it would be a more valid criticism to say that the XEDE makes power because it increases boost levels over stock boost, but thats also part of the benefit of running the system - to avoid boost cut and fuel cut from running more boost. when you look at how the system radically alters the air fuel ratio from stock, retains power to redline and controls the wastegate, its simply incorrect to say the system doesn't pull its weight on its own and that the intake allows it to do the bulk of its job.
i don't intend to or really care if i change anyone's mind, i've tuned more engine management systems in the last five years than most shop owners play with in thier entire career and know where the gains on this car are to be made. but i would like to see constructive debates/conversations had rather than taking personal stabs at one another. we're all adults here, or at least should be trying to act like one.
the exhaust on the car with the XEDE did nothing to "bring it to life". the car still retains the most restrictive elements of the stock exhaust (downpipe, cat, et al) and before and after runs with the car and just the exhaust - no intake mind you - yielded no measurable or better gains over stock. it is in all its effectiveness nothing more than a larger diameter system with a large glass pack and no resonators or mufflers. its not a turboback exhaust by any stretch of the imagination. you can drive the car and easily tell the exhaust is more for sound than it is for any level of performance.
i will readily and 100% agree that the intake is a well designed piece and gives every bit the gain CP-E claims it does, which according to thier site is roughly 11hp. thats not going to exponentially make the XEDE perform so much better than if it were on it's own. we could easily throw the stock airbox back on and see just how much the XEDE does on its own, and if its any slower than 13.5 i'd eat my words. once you reach the 12s and 13s, an intake isn't going to help shave that much off your times, its mathematically and exponentially not possible. its substantially harder to make more power and go faster when you start getting down into that range, its not a linear curve.
look at how the mazdaspeed6 runs stock - the car hits 10 to 1 or richer in boost and richer the higher up into the powerband the car goes. anyone who has done as much forced induction tuning, or more, as i have can tell you that simply leaning the car out across the powerband will free up a good deal of horsepower, much better than any intake or exhaust will do. the XEDE keeps the car in solid 12 to 1 air fuel ratios up to redline in boost. i would normally say this alone would be the key element until you also examine that, prior to the XEDE install, the car would lose power and taper off just before or around 6000rpms. we have managed to alleviate a good deal of that and now there is minimal if any boost fall off all the way to redline. that may not account for peak horsepower, but that would help account for being able to maintain power in each gear, and for that much longer, to better your track time. the car also boosted 15psi stock, give or take. the car now boosts 18psi with an initial spike to 22psi, all while keeping a safe and stable AFR. everything listed above is alot more responsible for a real power gain, especially when you are trying to eke it out getting close to 12s. its easy to break 14s and even 13s, to hit 12s and 11s is exponentially much more difficult, and isn't going to be primarily the work of an 11whp peak cold air intake and a noisier exhaust.
case in point; the ETS top mount intercooler gives 20 peak horsepower on the 2.3 DISI setup, more so than any cold air intake or catback only exhaust. we dynoed the XEDE both with and without the ETS top mount and the difference was barely 10whp at the top of the curve. i am sure you know gains are proportionally cumulative and do not merely add together 2 + 2 = 4.
it would be a more valid criticism to say that the XEDE makes power because it increases boost levels over stock boost, but thats also part of the benefit of running the system - to avoid boost cut and fuel cut from running more boost. when you look at how the system radically alters the air fuel ratio from stock, retains power to redline and controls the wastegate, its simply incorrect to say the system doesn't pull its weight on its own and that the intake allows it to do the bulk of its job.
i don't intend to or really care if i change anyone's mind, i've tuned more engine management systems in the last five years than most shop owners play with in thier entire career and know where the gains on this car are to be made. but i would like to see constructive debates/conversations had rather than taking personal stabs at one another. we're all adults here, or at least should be trying to act like one.
^^^^^^ I don't doubt the Xede one bit in it's capabilities. However, I go by what Cobb and other leading ECU tuners do tuning cars. Example: I had a stage 2 map for my STI. However, I could not run that map safely until I modiifed the intake and Exhaust. Cobb warns you not to dare use those maps until you add intake and exhaust. So sticking with the Stage 1 map (mild tune) was required, you only gain about 15-20whp safely. I did play around once, and I plugged in the Stage 2 map briefly, and I tell ya, the STI was ready to tear like a mofo. However, it was dangerous to use that kind of tune without modifying the intake and exhaust first. Once you do that on an STI, you can use the Stage 2 maps, and gain an additional 40+whp, on top of the 20whp what just using the Cobb AP gives you if you don't modify anything else. If all you do is modify the intake and exhaust, and don't add the Cobb AP tuner, you will get minimal gains just as you would with the CAI and exhaust mod on the Speed 6.
This is what has me confused. I also realize that Cobb puts safety and reliability as a top priority, but I was always told by many that ECU tuning is really not much of anything without intake and exhaust mods, and vice versa.
I'm curious as to how the Xede avoids that requirement, and how you can push the gains so large and safely, without adding the intake and exhaust mod. I'm not doubting it, I'd just like to understand it better. What makes the Xede safe at high levels of ECU tuning on a Speed 6 with such large gains modifying nothing else, and not on the Cobb or other ECU tuners? I'd like to see some dyno results and track times with just the Xede, and no other mods at all. Hopefully over time we'll get to see that. Perhaps I am underestimating the potential of this Speed 6, by just modifying the ECU. It doesn't seem believable that you can add 40-50whp safely and effictivley without doing anything else, like intake and exhaust. Thanks for reading, and I hope someone can answer my curiosity, as I'm awaiting that day when I can modify my Speed 6 safely and effectvely!!
This is what has me confused. I also realize that Cobb puts safety and reliability as a top priority, but I was always told by many that ECU tuning is really not much of anything without intake and exhaust mods, and vice versa.
I'm curious as to how the Xede avoids that requirement, and how you can push the gains so large and safely, without adding the intake and exhaust mod. I'm not doubting it, I'd just like to understand it better. What makes the Xede safe at high levels of ECU tuning on a Speed 6 with such large gains modifying nothing else, and not on the Cobb or other ECU tuners? I'd like to see some dyno results and track times with just the Xede, and no other mods at all. Hopefully over time we'll get to see that. Perhaps I am underestimating the potential of this Speed 6, by just modifying the ECU. It doesn't seem believable that you can add 40-50whp safely and effictivley without doing anything else, like intake and exhaust. Thanks for reading, and I hope someone can answer my curiosity, as I'm awaiting that day when I can modify my Speed 6 safely and effectvely!!
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- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
MS6S2K said:
well for one, and though its cliche to say, every car is different in the respects to how well it is tuned and built stock from the factory. lately, since the rx8 even, mazda has done a better job in releasing their cars from the factory. you don't see as much as you used to from things like intakes and catback exhausts. heck a catback on an rx8 yields about 3hp over the stock setup on a dyno.
i don't know that the other tuning systems out there would be any less capable or more capable of producing safe power than the XEDE on these engines. when it comes to doing EMS work, safe is a pretty open ended term to try and measure. typically an engine is going to blow for some pretty basic reasons - running too lean, overcoming the strength of the stock internals by virtue of sheer power, detonation, too high of combustion temps, etc etc. the problem i forsee with any EMS tuner is the strength of the stock internals on the DISI engine. its relatively unknown what they can handle in terms of sheer horsepower because so few people have gone to the lengths of blowing one up. knowing what the bottom end could hold on its own would go great lengths for everyone in knowing where to quit. mike's (4DRHTRD) was blown by running lean at 30psi on a significantly larger turbocharger. this is not the best yardstick so to speak, but it is one of the few yardsticks thus far. there is the issue of the stock turbocharger being efficient or not beyond factory boost.
so far i am judging safety based on a few things. one, we're running beautifully smooth fuel curves all the way to redline. two, we're running very similar boost settings and fuel mapping compared the MS3 XEDE which has been on our MS3 safely for over three months now. three, the 2.3 liter engine has proven since its inception to be able to hold a good amount of boost before giving out. i am operating under the impression, and mazda's word, that the DISI 2.3 is stronger in every sense of the word, allowing it to handle as much or more power as the regular 2.3s have shown to so far. four, sensor data from our OBD2 diagnostic software shows that the engine data falls well within safe ranges during and after 'spirited driving'. this data includes things like intake air temps, fuel trims, etc.
i do agree that ECU tuning is best helped by other mods. we're planning on upgrading the intercooler and downpipe in the next two weeks to free up some more breathing room for the car. if we can break 12s without breaking the car, it would make me happy
i wasn't so much disagreeing with you, just saying that the XEDE really is the lynch pin of the operation and easily responsible for 90% of the power now being made on the car. the intake probably helped, but not by a drastic measure. the downpipe and intercooler should help much more.mazda tuned these cars to run very rich. if you look at a stock dyno, the air fuel ratios sink into very rich ranges by the time you hit full boost and into the higher rpm ranges. this is conservative of course, but when you reduce your AFRs from 9:1 (nine parts air per one part fuel) to 12:1 and then add boost, you could easily see very good gains from just EMS.
i don't think its unrealistic to think that Cobb or CP-E can do the same thing with thier systems upon release. I am sure with the right tuning you could easily see the same results, but only time will tell. each EMS is also very different. if you compare the features and abilities of a Vishnu XEDE box to a Cobb AP, even with information from thier respective corporate pages, the XEDE has alot more built into the hardware. We used to push Unichips for the Protege for about $1000, and Microtechs for $1000. I can tell you now which system was the better and more powerful of the two. I don't know on the MS6 which system will end up showing itself the best as there hasn't been enough said about testing on this particular car from the other companies to really judge that unfortunately.
^^^^^ Thanks for the great info. I guess what took me is the responses to the 13.18 1/4 mile time as "install the xede and shave 6-7/10ths of the Speed 6 bone stock 1/4 mile time." When I challenged it, people argued it. That just isn't accurate IMO. I will just have to keep my opinion that you cannot get 40-50whp safely and efficiently from just running the Xede with no other mods. If that ends up being false, then I'll be the first to admit I am wrong. I also believe that the Speed 6 will respond similiarly to the STI and other cars regarding mods. Once you open up that intake and exhaust, and allow that turbo to breath, you can really get some high boost efficiency, car will run much better, and it will make the ecu mod like the Xede shine, and bring the car to a whole new level, which I believe the person who ran that 13.18 did. They also really know how to drive to pull off that time, and didn't mind truly hard launching their car, so I'm actually more impressed with the driver then I am the mods.
If I start to see dyno runs of 270+whp and 1/4 mile times in the 13.3.13.4 range just by installing this Xede and nothing else, and with no potential problems, then I'll not only be happy, I'll willingly stick my foot in my mouth. Thanks again for the great write ups.
If I start to see dyno runs of 270+whp and 1/4 mile times in the 13.3.13.4 range just by installing this Xede and nothing else, and with no potential problems, then I'll not only be happy, I'll willingly stick my foot in my mouth. Thanks again for the great write ups.
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- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
MS6S2K said:^^^^^ Thanks for the great info. I guess what took me is the responses to the 13.18 1/4 mile time as "install the xede and shave 6-7/10ths of the Speed 6 bone stock 1/4 mile time." When I challenged it, people argued it. That just isn't accurate IMO. I will just have to keep my opinion that you cannot get 40-50whp safely and efficiently from just running the Xede with no other mods. If that ends up being false, then I'll be the first to admit I am wrong. I also believe that the Speed 6 will respond similiarly to the STI and other cars regarding mods. Once you open up that intake and exhaust, and allow that turbo to breath, you can really get some high boost efficiency, car will run much better, and it will make the ecu mod like the Xede shine, and bring the car to a whole new level, which I believe the person who ran that 13.18 did. They also really know how to drive to pull off that time, and didn't mind truly hard launching their car, so I'm actually more impressed with the driver then I am the mods.
If I start to see dyno runs of 270+whp and 1/4 mile times in the 13.3.13.4 range just by installing this Xede and nothing else, and with no potential problems, then I'll not only be happy, I'll willingly stick my foot in my mouth. Thanks again for the great write ups.
i'd be happy to put the stock air box on the car and see where it runs with it versus the CP-E intake. i think it would easily hit 13.4 without it and validate the claim that you can shave 6/10ths off stock with the system. if it didn't then i'd be the one putting the foot in my mouth
that said, i'd honestly stake my reputation on the car hitting low 13s even with the stock air box on. its due to rain all weekend here, but if weather clears up enough to where we can get some passes in, i'll see if we can do it.
Captain KRM P5 said:i'd be happy to put the stock air box on the car and see where it runs with it versus the CP-E intake. i think it would easily hit 13.4 without it and validate the claim that you can shave 6/10ths off stock with the system. if it didn't then i'd be the one putting the foot in my mouth
that said, i'd honestly stake my reputation on the car hitting low 13s even with the stock air box on. its due to rain all weekend here, but if weather clears up enough to where we can get some passes in, i'll see if we can do it.
Well, if you really want to accurately measure the gains, you need to have a bone stock Speed 6, then run a baseline dyno, and than a Xede dyno. There's really no accuracy when running at the track to create your own dyno results by comparing 1/4 mile times. Shaving 6/10ths of a second can be done simply by one mediocre launch bone stock, followed by a great launch with the Xede. Also weather conditions, ect ect play a role, so it makes it even less accurate. Also keep in mind, people have run 13.8 bone stock, so you should base that gain off of the best achievable time gotten on a bone stock Speed 6, not a magazine time or personal time.
I notice how you are talking about 1/4 times, and not dyno numbers. Do you believe the Xede system alone safely adds 40-50whp to a bone stock Speed 6 with no other mods. That is what really counts here. 50whp gain simply by installing this would prove your 6/10ths gain. In the end though Dyno proven results are what matters, so I'd focus on that, and if you can add 50whp by installing this, and a future plug and play, while not compromizing the reliability of the car, then I'll stick both feet in my mouth.
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$inCitySpeed3
Member
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- Mazdaspeed 3 GT
i dont think that is the case, he only pulled a 1.8 in a AWD or 4WD, which i think there is great room for improvement, not saying he cant drive, but i will bet he could beat it a little harder off the line...also about your dyno post, a DYNO is a tuning tool, it just happens to read HP and TQ
$inCitySpeed3 said:
I'm not doubting the capabilities of the Speed 3 and 6. What I'm doubting is the claim that by simply installing the Xede (no other mods) you can add 40-50whp safely, which then would result in shaving 6-7 10ths off the 1/4 mile time. So far no one really is arguing against me, or able to truly prove that claim. Of course once you add intake and exhaust mods, I believe it, and I also believe it's capable of even more. I just want to get to the bottom of this. I'm the type of guy that does not want to modify my intake and exhaust. I like the quiet ride. I'm looking to add some more power with some plug and play. I just want to know what the true gain is, because I can't get myself to believe I will be able to add 40-50whp just by buying and installing this. But believe me, I'd love to be wrong. Just waiting for evidence of this claim.
$inCitySpeed3
Member
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- Mazdaspeed 3 GT
I got ya, wish i still had my dyno to do this on, would do it in a heart beat...
MS6S2K said:I'm not doubting the capabilities of the Speed 3 and 6. What I'm doubting is the claim that by simply installing the Xede (no other mods) you can add 40-50whp safely, which then would result in shaving 6-7 10ths off the 1/4 mile time. So far no one really is arguing against me, or able to truly prove that claim. Of course once you add intake and exhaust mods, I believe it, and I also believe it's capable of even more. I just want to get to the bottom of this. I'm the type of guy that does not want to modify my intake and exhaust. I like the quiet ride. I'm looking to add some more power with some plug and play. I just want to know what the true gain is, because I can't get myself to believe I will be able to add 40-50whp just by buying and installing this. But believe me, I'd love to be wrong. Just waiting for evidence of this claim.
I wouldn't worry so much about peak numbers as I would worry about your A/F ratio. Regardless of mods, commanding a nice smooth A/F curve at a reasonable ratio is far more important than bragging numbers. Just correcting that alone will provide you with better throttle response, driveability and in my opinion a longer lifespan to your piston rings and catalytic converters. The dyno sheets Nutari posted in the XEDE How To thread demonstrated how well the A/F is commanded by the unit. Like you, I'm not looking to modify my car(If it ever gets here), BUT, the car needs a tune. I dont want to replace the cat out of pocket when it finally fails or deal with premature carbon buildup on expensive O2 sensors because Mazda decided more fuel would fix all their issues. When the ECU reflashers come out, you'll get your PNP wishes, at present, they're not at market. XEDE is and from what I've seen is a solid solution aside from not being able to be slapped into the ODBII port like other tuning options on the market for other vehicles. I'm waiting for that myself.
as soon as the xede is P&P i'll be getting one. theres a few reasons like you said.
i think i remember ken saying the xede can not be traced by a tech when it is not installed for dealer visits, but the others can. Also if it leans the car out and adds the power it says it does then it should be a great product.
i think i remember ken saying the xede can not be traced by a tech when it is not installed for dealer visits, but the others can. Also if it leans the car out and adds the power it says it does then it should be a great product.
CPE cannot be traced either, and there is no proof that the accessport can be traced. If the CPE product is as good as they are promising it will have more capabilities than the xede (most importantly control of the throttle) and cost at least $300 less. From what I understand the xede is being updated and the version being sold now will be improved upon soon. Good things will come to those who wait.
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- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
dread said:
i have called Cobb numerous times on this and they said the Accessport can be detected by a dealership if they are looking for it. I asked the master tech at Mazda what this entails and basically if they scan the ECU and see that a flash was written to it by a non-Mazda computer (this can be identified by the serial number of the the flash on the unit, and the serial number of the computer flashing it, both of which are recorded into the ECU's readable history) then they will know some modification was made outside of the dealership.
He insinuated that the only reason anyone would have to look for things like this is if you blew the motor. His regional boss has said that while Mazda could give a whodanickel about the 2.3 engines in the 6 and 3, the DISI engines are ones they are keeping thier collective eyes on. After debacles with the RX7 and RX8, if one of these motors goes they're going send a rep out from corporate to find out why.
i know a little more about Cobb than many outside of them do at this point but i'll let them make the announcements when the time comes.
MS6S2K said:
the launches if you look at the 13.8 and 13.1 were equally good. the timeslips show near identical 60ft and reaction times which are indicators of near identical launches. if we use weather as an argument, the 13.1 run was done a few hours after a torrential downpour, thus it could be said (though i am not) that the car should have been even quicker.
based on the extensive dyno testing of the mazdaspeed3 xede with various mods installed and uninstalled as well as the math behind exponentially increasing your ability to reduce a quarter mile time, yes i absolutely do. i plan on getting baselines of this particular vehicle to help support that belief, and if they fall into step with baselines of every other Dynojet run mazdaspeed6, it will.
