fap fap fap fap

[happy and angry]

That doesn't prove he's making power past 5500 rpm at all. That is worse than no evidence. That is dumb evidence.

 

[JDM Sam]

could be. like I said this was a dyno before tune. I am sure there are a few more flying around, there is atleast 5-6 cars that are running larger turbos.

Personally I want to keep the same PSI, I just want a larger turbo so that it will flatten our ugly torque curve. Better yet, maybe a twin turbo setup!!! lol

A properly sized single is better than a twin. The 2.3L likes a bigger turbo than your stock..

If you upgrade the turbo, having the throttle plate open 100% should show more gains than it has on the stock turbo.

 

[Vord]

A properly sized single is better than a twin. The 2.3L likes a bigger turbo than your stock..

If you upgrade the turbo, having the throttle plate open 100% should show more gains than it has on the stock turbo.

I don't know anything about twin turbos, it was simply a statement, but I understand what you are saying.

Generally, I think everyone can agree that our turbos are a pretty big "weak" point when it comes to getting past that 350 hp and to using our engine to its fullest at redline.

 

[Zimmer]

does Mazda service inspect the following maintenance steps when it goes into the shop... ?? I know they replenish / top off all lubricants etc but I'd like to assume.... but if one doesn't ask then that would suck...

THanks nice info

3. MAINTENANCE

A. Engine oil and filter should be replaced every 3000 miles. Do not change engine oil without installing a new oil filter. Check your engine oil level frequently. The turbocharger shaft spins over 10 times faster than your engine�s crankshaft, so an adequate oil supply is critical.

B. Periodically inspect the turbocharger to determine if the wastegate rod and hardware has been bent or damaged. The K04 wastegate rod comes from the 3K- Warner factory with a locking clip over the adjustment nuts. DO NOT attempt to recalibrate the wastegate by moving the adjustment nuts. Any tampering with the wastegate can dramatically alter the boost characteric of the turbocharger and lead to serious engine damage.
C. In the event that any air intake hoses are removed or disconnected during service, thoroughly inspect every hose and remove any foreign objects or debris that may have fallen or collect inside the hose(s). Any loose objects
inside the air intake tract may be sucked into the turbocharger upon start up, seriously damaging the compressor blades.[/I]

 

[CoolWhip]

Being local FTW.

Mee too (yippy)

 

[freeflyfreak]

Below is a direct repost from mazda speed forums dot org
The original poster was enganear.
I think this answers why Mazda made the engine "shut down" after 5500, to protect the turbo:




K04 TURBO REPORT FROM NEUSPEED

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The information below, gleaned from a B5 site, offers some insight into the limitations of the K04 turbo that I have not seen mentioned before. High temperatures and softening of the shaft could also be the root cause of some of the reported turbo problems and also may explain why Mazda intentionally pulls the plug on boost at 6k rpms. Is anyone measuring exhaust temp in the turbine housing?
-enganear

K04 TURBOCHARGER REPORT FROM NEUSPEED

For those readers unfamiliar with the background of the 3K-Warner K04 turbocharger here is a brief summary of past events. The K04 turbocharger (manufactured by 3K-Warner GmbH) is sold as an upgrade for 1.8T engines by several international tuners, including NEUSPEED. In the United States, NEUSPEED has sold the largest number of K04 turbochargers in the aftermarket for use on 1.8T engines. Over the past two years, we documented 8 K04 turbocharger failures and reported this information to 3K-Warner�s United States importer, Dura Products Corporation in Bradley, Illinois.
After validating the statistical significance of the failure rate, NEUSPEED suspended its sales of the K04 turbocharger, and with the assistance of Dura Products Corporation performed extensive testing to determine the cause of the failures. Based on our joint findings, we prepared this report to brief current K04 users, and potential users, on the proper installation, operation and maintenance of the K04 turbocharger to maximize its service life.

1. INSTALLATION
Each re-seller of the K04 turbocharger is responsible for providing installation instructions. The following information is intended to supplement those instructions, not replace them.

A. Always drain engine oil and remove old oil filter prior to removing existing turbo from the vehicle.

B. Always inspect factory oil feed line to determine if line has become coked with oil residue. If the oil feed line has dark, hardened coating inside of it, discard the line and replace it with a new Audi or Volkswagen genuine part.

C. After the K04 turbocharger has been bolted onto the manifold and oil feed and return lines have been reconnected, install new oil filter and use synthetic engine oil only. Mobil 1 and Redline are the recommended brands. 20/50w is recommend for summer. 10/40w is recommended for winter.

D. Before restarting the engine for the first time, the engine, oil lines and turbocharger must be dry-primed with oil. To perform this procedure, first locate the Engine Control Computer (ECU) and disconnect the multipin connector from the ECU. Next turn the ignition to the RUN position and crank the starter motor in several 4-5 second bursts. (Your oil pump will circulate oil, however no spark or fuel will be introduced into the cylinder.) Next turn the ignition key to the OFF/LOCK position and reconnect the multipin connector to the ECU. Next turn the ignition key to the ON/POWER position, but do not start the vehicle. Leave this key in this position for at least 30 seconds. (This sends power to the ECU, but the engine will not be running.) Finally turn the key to the START position to start the engine. Allow the vehicle to idle for several minutes, then shut down the engine and check the oil level. Top off if necessary.

2. OPERATION

The K04 is designed to provide reliable, long-term service as long as its performance parameters are not exceeded. Driving the car at engine speeds above 5800 rpm with 15spi or greater boost significantly increases the exhaust temperature measured inside the K04 turbine housing. This signals that the maximum efficiency of the turbocharger has been exceeded, and that the energy produced by the turbine housing is now converting to heat rather than accelerating the compressor wheel faster. Unless a careful and extended idle-down is performed at the end of every hard driving session, the rapid heat build-up from high boost/high rpm operation causes the turbine shaft to soften, and allows the inconel turbine head to droop. The result is an imbalance that ultimately leads to a shaft failure.



A. NEUSPEED has revised its ECU programming to reduce K04 boost pressure above 5800rpm. Current K04 users are encouraged to contact their ECU software supplier and request this change. Existing NEUSPEED K04 customers will be offered this software upgrade at no charge. Peak horsepower, measured at 5700 rpm, is unaffected by this change. The reduction in high-rpm boost pressure lowers the peak turbine exhaust temperature to approximately 875�C. As long as peak turbine exhaust temperatures do not exceed 875�C, the K04 turbocharger should continue to operate reliably.



B. We encourage K04 users to install an exhaust gas temperature probe directly in the turbocharger housing to monitor peak temperature during operation. Do not mount the probe in the exhaust manifold. Do not mount the probe in the exhaust downpipe. The measurements obtained in these two locations cannot be compared to the 875�C critical temperature.



We recommend using the HKS EGT gauge and thermocouple, it reads from 500�C-1200�C. It is easily purchased from any HKS distributor and incorporates a Peak Hold Warning feature. To install the HKS thermocouple, you will need to remove your turbocharger and drill a 5/16� hole into the turbine side housing. Use a 1/8� pipe tap and cutting oil to tap threads into the hole. (We used Sears Craftman tap #9-54531) Thoroughly clean the housing and hole of all cutting debris, coat the thermocouple threads with anti-seize compound, and install the thermocouple.



C. K04 users should always bring their vehicle to a complete stop and allow the engine to idle prior to shutting down the engine. Recommended idle times vary from 1 minute after mild driving, to 5 minutes after aggressive driving. The idle-down procedure circulates fresh oil and coolant through the turbocharger, allowing it to cool gradually, prior to shut-down.



D. NEUSPEED also now offers a 5 bar fuel pressure regulator to be used in conjunction with the factory 235 CC fuel per minute injectors. The 5 bar regulator does not materially affect the turbine housing temperature. However, our testing showed that it does provides a more consistant Air/Fuel ratio during high rpm operation.

3. MAINTENANCE

A. Engine oil and filter should be replaced every 3000 miles. Do not change engine oil without installing a new oil filter. Check your engine oil level frequently. The turbocharger shaft spins over 10 times faster than your engine�s crankshaft, so an adequate oil supply is critical.

B. Periodically inspect the turbocharger to determine if the wastegate rod and hardware has been bent or damaged. The K04 wastegate rod comes from the 3K- Warner factory with a locking clip over the adjustment nuts. DO NOT attempt to recalibrate the wastegate by moving the adjustment nuts. Any tampering with the wastegate can dramatically alter the boost characteric of the turbocharger and lead to serious engine damage.
C. In the event that any air intake hoses are removed or disconnected during service, thoroughly inspect every hose and remove any foreign objects or debris that may have fallen or collect inside the hose(s). Any loose objects
inside the air intake tract may be sucked into the turbocharger upon start up, seriously damaging the compressor blades.

 

[controlo]

That doesn't prove he's making power past 5500 rpm at all. That is worse than no evidence. That is dumb evidence.

yeah, i know it isn't proof. thanks for clarifying that. maybe if you look back at my previous post, you'll see that i never called it 'proof'.

if we follow your logic, it can't be proven. what would you consider proof then? graphs? graphs can be manufactured. or a picture of him on a dyno that cuts to a video of a manufactured dyno graph? yeah.

the only reason why i even brought it up is because in the video, laloosh runs a 12.9 and he revs it to redline every time. he's running some of the best times in this whole community. it doesn't make sense that he'd rev it up and lose power.

take it for what you will. i was just trying to show people what they may not have seen before. it seems like he's making power to redline or damn close to it.

'critical thinking' FTW!

 

[controlo]

great info man! do you happen to know what the new programming lowers the boost to? (drive)

 

[happy and angry]

yeah, i know it isn't proof. thanks for clarifying that. maybe if you look back at my previous post, you'll see that i never called it 'proof'.

if we follow your logic, it can't be proven. what would you consider proof then? graphs? graphs can be manufactured. or a picture of him on a dyno that cuts to a video of a manufactured dyno graph? yeah.

I'd settle for a dyno graph without a serious power drop off at 5500 RPM. There is an enormous difference between a dyno sheet and a YouTube video of a speedometer.

the only reason why i even brought it up is because in the video, laloosh runs a 12.9 and he revs it to redline every time. he's running some of the best times in this whole community. it doesn't make sense that he'd rev it up and lose power.

It doesn't make sense? Really? He's still making more power up past 5500 rpm than most of us are, and gearing is still a big advantage to be taken advantage of. He might still be making decent power up top compared to a stock MS3 and still have a big drop off in power at 5500 rpm. It's just as reasonable to assume he's riding out each gear to make the most of mechanical advantage because he's got enough extra power to make it worth it.

take it for what you will. i was just trying to show people what they may not have seen before. it seems like he's making power to redline or damn close to it.

No, it just seems like the speedometer goes up to about 100 or so and he shifts at or around red line. You can infer nothing else from that video.

'critical thinking' FTW!

If you want to call it that...

 

[controlo]

he hits the rev limiter in every gear.

it doesn't matter if you'd 'settle' for a dyno graph. the fact is, a dyno graph is no more 'proof' than this video is. keep in mind, again, i never claimed it to be 'proof'.

 

[happy and angry]

I'm having a real difficult time understanding how you can argue that a video of a speedometer and a tach is "as much proof" of turbo inefficiency after 5500 RPM as a dyno sheet with a serious drop off in power at 5500 would be. I'm also struggling to grasp how you can argue "I didn't bring up this video that is entirely unrelated to the topic at hand to prove anything. It's not 'proof' of anything!" So you brought it up for no reason at all and should shut up about it then, I guess?

Do you know the difference between empirical evidence and circumstantial evidence? Or are you going to cop out with the "yea but someone could fake a graph!!1!!!11!!" ridiculousness again? Stick with that logic, and this entire thread could be based on unsourced fabrications. Christ, how do we even know CP-E's reflash provides any benefits! Those dyno sheets are probably fabricated, am I right? How do we know anything on this entire message board isn't just a big ol' lie! Screw charts, computer analysis and numbers, they are all misleading!!

Critical thinking my ass, buddy.

 

[Vord]

yeah, i know it isn't proof. thanks for clarifying that. maybe if you look back at my previous post, you'll see that i never called it 'proof'.

if we follow your logic, it can't be proven. what would you consider proof then? graphs? graphs can be manufactured. or a picture of him on a dyno that cuts to a video of a manufactured dyno graph? yeah.

the only reason why i even brought it up is because in the video, laloosh runs a 12.9 and he revs it to redline every time. he's running some of the best times in this whole community. it doesn't make sense that he'd rev it up and lose power.

take it for what you will. i was just trying to show people what they may not have seen before. it seems like he's making power to redline or damn close to it.

Just to provide a bit of an explanation of what happy and angry is trying to say:

A few people have started finding that they lose times(to be exact about .1-.2 of a second and 3-4 mph on the trap) on there quarter mile when they shift before redline in 3-4 and/or 4-5. This is believed to be due to the gearing ratio times.

Lastly, if you want to get right down to it based on dynos can be doctored. They we don't even know if we lose power up top really. Don't get ridiculously philosophical.

A dyno will do the job now, its better evidence than a video of a speedometer.

Plus, not everyone uses dynos to fake s***. some people use it for what they were intended.

'critical thinking' FTW!

Its interisting how you are trying to make fun of me with that, but now you just look like a dick. I simply asked for evidence as proof, if you have none, then simply state that you are speculating.

BTW, I can't help but notice your signature...Are you a very active chrisitan? (sorry for the off-topic question, its curiousity and I won't bring it up in reply).

 

[fastdreams]

The K04's that Neuspeed sells for Audi/VW is a K04-15, and it's going on 1.8L engines - even with that small of an engine the k04-15 still runs out of breath before redline. The k03 it replaces is even worse on the 1.8t, coincidentally it ran out of useable power at around 5500rpm and it made sense to short shift. The k04-15 is tiny. It's all about low end torque and midrange punch, try to run too much boost at too high of an RPM and it's just a very hot and weak hair dryer. The best turbo for useable power on the 1.8t is the GT28RS. IMO.

The MS3 k04 is similar in that it's about low-end torque and midrange punch. You can up the boost and try to force it to make power to redline but it's not ideal and so you won't get ideal results. It's a TINY tiny little turbo. Seriously, hold one in your hands and you'll understand.

 

[Gmac03]

Did he say Garrett? You talking about the disco Potato? I like that turbo, but a bigger fan of the 2871r.

Gmac

 

[controlo]

Just to provide a bit of an explanation of what happy and angry is trying to say:

A few people have started finding that they lose times(to be exact about .1-.2 of a second and 3-4 mph on the trap) on there quarter mile when they shift before redline in 3-4 and/or 4-5. This is believed to be due to the gearing ratio times.

Lastly, if you want to get right down to it based on dynos can be doctored. They we don't even know if we lose power up top really. Don't get ridiculously philosophical.

A dyno will do the job now, its better evidence than a video of a speedometer.

Plus, not everyone uses dynos to fake s***. some people use it for what they were intended.






Its interisting how you are trying to make fun of me with that, but now you just look like a dick. I simply asked for evidence as proof, if you have none, then simply state that you are speculating.

BTW, I can't help but notice your signature...Are you a very active chrisitan? (sorry for the off-topic question, its curiousity and I won't bring it up in reply).

ok. first, i never said the video was proof of anything. it just seems to me that the video shows him making power in the upper rpms. maybe to some, it seems that he has enough power to make the power drop seem invisible.

i do understand gear ratios and that people ride out 4th instead of shifting to 5th to shave time. that doesn't work for all gears though.

secondly, it has nothing to do with philosophy. i was merely showing a video that i feel shows him making power after 6k. i don't know about you but i can hear when my motor stops making power after 6k too.

if someone shows me something that seems reasonable, i usually believe it. there's no reason for me not to. also, a dyno graph isn't proof of anything. the fact that most people wouldn't doctor them doesn't mean they aren't doctored.

keep in mind, it isn't required for you to believe what's happening in this video in order for it to be true.

i wasn't trying to start an argument at all. it all started when he called it 'dumb evidence'

i DID state that it was speculation. i said 'i think' in my very first post. then i posted a video for people to consider. for the tenth time... i never said it was 'proof'.

maybe i should've posted this thread in the first place. i just didn't feel like searching for it. i assumed that everyone would view the video as i did. oh well.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123689668&highlight=12.9

take it for what it is. nothing is ever 'proof'.

i don't even like that ******* word.

and no, i'm not a christian. you can PM me if you want to have a philosophical discussion.

 

[controlo]

The K04's that Neuspeed sells for Audi/VW is a K04-15, and it's going on 1.8L engines - even with that small of an engine the k04-15 still runs out of breath before redline. The k03 it replaces is even worse on the 1.8t, coincidentally it ran out of useable power at around 5500rpm and it made sense to short shift. The k04-15 is tiny. It's all about low end torque and midrange punch, try to run too much boost at too high of an RPM and it's just a very hot and weak hair dryer. The best turbo for useable power on the 1.8t is the GT28RS. IMO.

The MS3 k04 is similar in that it's about low-end torque and midrange punch. You can up the boost and try to force it to make power to redline but it's not ideal and so you won't get ideal results. It's a TINY tiny little turbo. Seriously, hold one in your hands and you'll understand.

it is tiny. look at the nuespeed info that someone posted a few posts back, though.

it says it can't operate 'reliably' at over 15psi past the 5700rpm mark or whatever.

i'd much rather have 15psi after 6k than no psi. hehe.

 

[controlo]

I'm having a real difficult time understanding how you can argue that a video of a speedometer and a tach is "as much proof" of turbo inefficiency after 5500 RPM as a dyno sheet with a serious drop off in power at 5500 would be. I'm also struggling to grasp how you can argue "I didn't bring up this video that is entirely unrelated to the topic at hand to prove anything. It's not 'proof' of anything!" So you brought it up for no reason at all and should shut up about it then, I guess?

Do you know the difference between empirical evidence and circumstantial evidence? Or are you going to cop out with the "yea but someone could fake a graph!!1!!!11!!" ridiculousness again? Stick with that logic, and this entire thread could be based on unsourced fabrications. Christ, how do we even know CP-E's reflash provides any benefits! Those dyno sheets are probably fabricated, am I right? How do we know anything on this entire message board isn't just a big ol' lie! Screw charts, computer analysis and numbers, they are all misleading!!

Critical thinking my ass, buddy.

here ya go: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123689668&highlight=12.9

wow. this whole argument has spawned from your misinterpretation of 'evidence'. get out of here with this empirical evidence and circumstantial evidence s***. this isn't a court room. i can provide definitions if you want.

the point is, no matter how much you want to dispute it, that NOTHING can be proven. all you can do is take what is reasonable and 'prove' it to yourself. until something comes along and you have to 'disprove' yourself. watching a video of something doesn't prove it. seeing charts doesn't prove anything. period. end of story. i'm not saying graphs are misleading but they just don't 'prove' anything. when someone posts a graph that seems reasonable, you will probably believe it. that doesn't mean it's true.

i never said it was proof. i was giving you something to consider. you obviously didn't consider it. it's a video of a person that posted a video after claiming he had power to redline.

all i said was, there are people making power to redline, 'i think'.

then i posted a video of why I think that. i probably should've posted a link to the thread as well but then we wouldn't have had this incredibly intellectual conversation.

 

[happy and angry]

Seeing numbers and data don't prove anything? Okay, so you must live in a mysterious moon logic world where you are only sure Sun rises in the morning when you see it for yourself, and 2 + 2 only equals four when you prove it from first principals.

Here is how it works. A video provides a theory. "I think this car is making power to redline." You then verify that theory with data. "I have a dyno graph." You then look at the dyno graph and see power drop off hard at 5500 rpm, just like all the other K04s, and then say "What's going on?" Then you think "Oh, he's probably just taking advantage of gearing." See? There is a logical progression that has some semblance of reason behind it that isn't "I THINK."

But hey, I have a video of a guy reving the MS3 really loud to show off his exhaust set up, but he's taking it to redline. I think it demonstrates how the car makes power up to redline. Wanna see it?

 

[controlo]

Seeing numbers and data don't prove anything? Okay, so you must live in a mysterious moon logic world where you are only sure Sun rises in the morning when you see it for yourself, and 2 + 2 only equals four when you prove it from first principals.

Here is how it works. A video provides a theory. "I think this car is making power to redline." You then verify that theory with data. "I have a dyno graph." You then look at the dyno graph and see power drop off hard at 5500 rpm, just like all the other K04s, and then say "What's going on?" Then you think "Oh, he's probably just taking advantage of gearing." See? There is a logical progression that has some semblance of reason behind it that isn't "I THINK."

But hey, I have a video of a guy reving the MS3 really loud to show off his exhaust set up, but he's taking it to redline. I think it demonstrates how the car makes power up to redline. Wanna see it?

i never presented the video to be anything other than what it is. you did.

and yes, seeing a graph that seems reasonable doesn't mean that it wasn't fabricated. why is that so hard to comprehend?

did you even read the thread that i posted a link to? it goes along with the irrelevant video. late.

 

[Vord]

i never presented the video to be anything other than what it is. you did.

and yes, seeing a graph that seems reasonable doesn't mean that it wasn't fabricated. why is that so hard to comprehend?

did you even read the thread that i posted a link to? it goes along with the irrelevant video. late.

Although your thread is relevant, if we use your philosophy, those graphs (which are excel graphs) could have been modified!! lol

realisiticlly, laloosh is using a a standback to control his boost, making our K04 arguement relatively obsolete. I don't think anyone is going to deny that our fuel pump sucks, but I think that our turbo goes out first.