I would think it could be from the downpipe mod and not having either a tune or proper fuel pump to support such a mod. It needs to be datalogged to see how the fuel pump is running under WOT, either from a ultragauge, AP, dash hawk, or something a buddy has. I would start there. But I would not tune the vehicle yet or replace anything without knowing for sure.
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Bought a lemon 09 MS3?
- Thread starter MS3SP33DGIRL
- Start date
2.0t03speed
Member
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- 08.5 CWP Speed 3
I don't think its the down pipe mod. My car has both cats gutted and I just installed a Cobb sri last night. With the stock hpfp and stock tune my fuel pressure is 1650-1750 and my boost is 15-16 psi all verified via my ultra gauge
2.0t03speed
Member
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- 08.5 CWP Speed 3
true, but then scmp3 just bought a ms6 with a full 3" exhaust and full intake and he has better fuel pressure then me i think lol.
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- 2003.5 MSP
A 2012 V6 Camry is a rocket ship for a full size sedan............i gotta give it props. my buddy had a 2010 with intake and exhaust and we played many time when i had my car running a hypertech and other mods and his car would stay with my 2008 MS3 from 65 right up to 110. so stock for stock i would put them comparable. that being said buying a used MS3 is always tough, a dealership telling you its stock does not mean its stock...lol. the only thing that concerns me is that you said you got toasted by another stock MS3....... if you were local id take a look and try and help you out.
This thread is funny.
The best suggestion here is to take it to CP-e they know MS3s better than your dealership or a local shop will. They will figure out what is wrong if it exists, and suggest a plan moving forward to get you a reliable car. Buy parts, tuners, and guessing seems like a terrible plan if you ask me.
The best suggestion here is to take it to CP-e they know MS3s better than your dealership or a local shop will. They will figure out what is wrong if it exists, and suggest a plan moving forward to get you a reliable car. Buy parts, tuners, and guessing seems like a terrible plan if you ask me.
O.K. I've read the whole thread and there sure is a lot of speculation from people who seem to have little to no knowledge of the effect an aftermarket downpipe has on a gen 1 MS3. I'll try to stick to facts and not speculate. It is a fact that aftermarket downpipes can cause the cam driven high pressure fuel pump to not be able to keep up. I use the word "can" because it does not follow that in her case this is the problem. When that pump cannot produce the ECU's targeted pressure, the way the car acts is much different than what she is describing.
I drove my '08 MS3 with my TurboXS catless dp and rp for over 30,000 miles with the stock pump and stock tune. I had no problems. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a tune and upgraded pump internals before that, but for other reasons not germaine here. But, hear me out. Only when I added the Hypertech tune, which raises boost above stock levels, did I exceed the demand of the pump. And when that happens, you will know it. It won't just be sluggish or lose its pep. The engine will pull back timing to widen the spray of the injectors (longer duration) to try to compensate. When it can't, the low pressure event will be a momentary but pretty violent stutter, like load cut. I know, because that is what happened to me. The engine is trying to protect itself from the effects of a leaning out of the air to fuel ratio.
With respect, I think we can exclude the downpipe for this particular problem, although I agree that she will need to upgrade the pump internals just for peace of mind.
I think we can also exclude plugs as a cause, as the tell-tale sign would be engine misfiring. As far as I can tell, she is not reporting that. The car is just slow.
I agree with Bez that she should NOT put a tune on top of this mess until it is straightened out.
She needs something to monitor engine function. If she can't find someone with a dash hawk or other diagnostic equipment that can datalog, even a simple vacuum/boost gauge can tell a lot. I'm wondering if she can get someone to help her temporarily run a vacuum line into the cabin and attach a cheap $20 autoparts boost gauge. I would not be surprised to see that vacuum is normal (typically about 20-22 inches of mercury) but that boost is topping out at only about 10 psi. That is so-called "spring pressure." That can happen if there is a split vacuum line going from the turbo to the electronic boost control solenoid or from the solenoid back to the turbo inlet pipe. I chased a similar problem for quite some time and finally diagnosed a split vacuum hose.
She could also have a leaking bpv bleeding off boost. There could be a leak just about anywhere. With these kinds of leaks, the car will run and idle fine but never develop full boost at wide open throttle under load. The boost gauge would answer that question.
So she has an aftermarket downpipe. Is it catted or catless? What about the midpipe or race pipe? A damaged catalytic converter can produce constriction on the exhaust side. This backpressure can affect the ability of the turbo to produce maximum boost. We don't know what the previous owner did to the car. Checking for obstruction on the exhaust side needs to be done.
Another simple but possible answer would be an obstruction on the intake side, such as simply a dirty air filter.
What other mods, if any are there on this car? Another way is to use a stopwatch to time acceleration. A good and relatively safe option is for her to find a straight stretch of road and do a third gear wide open throttle pull from 50 to 75 mph. Published data for a stock gen 1 MS3 tells us that she should be covering that range in about 3.8 to 4.0 seconds, give or take a tenth or so. It it significantly slower than this, then something is wrong. If its acceleration is in that range, or quicker (given the downpipe), then she just encountered a quick Camry.
I drove my '08 MS3 with my TurboXS catless dp and rp for over 30,000 miles with the stock pump and stock tune. I had no problems. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a tune and upgraded pump internals before that, but for other reasons not germaine here. But, hear me out. Only when I added the Hypertech tune, which raises boost above stock levels, did I exceed the demand of the pump. And when that happens, you will know it. It won't just be sluggish or lose its pep. The engine will pull back timing to widen the spray of the injectors (longer duration) to try to compensate. When it can't, the low pressure event will be a momentary but pretty violent stutter, like load cut. I know, because that is what happened to me. The engine is trying to protect itself from the effects of a leaning out of the air to fuel ratio.
With respect, I think we can exclude the downpipe for this particular problem, although I agree that she will need to upgrade the pump internals just for peace of mind.
I think we can also exclude plugs as a cause, as the tell-tale sign would be engine misfiring. As far as I can tell, she is not reporting that. The car is just slow.
I agree with Bez that she should NOT put a tune on top of this mess until it is straightened out.
She needs something to monitor engine function. If she can't find someone with a dash hawk or other diagnostic equipment that can datalog, even a simple vacuum/boost gauge can tell a lot. I'm wondering if she can get someone to help her temporarily run a vacuum line into the cabin and attach a cheap $20 autoparts boost gauge. I would not be surprised to see that vacuum is normal (typically about 20-22 inches of mercury) but that boost is topping out at only about 10 psi. That is so-called "spring pressure." That can happen if there is a split vacuum line going from the turbo to the electronic boost control solenoid or from the solenoid back to the turbo inlet pipe. I chased a similar problem for quite some time and finally diagnosed a split vacuum hose.
She could also have a leaking bpv bleeding off boost. There could be a leak just about anywhere. With these kinds of leaks, the car will run and idle fine but never develop full boost at wide open throttle under load. The boost gauge would answer that question.
So she has an aftermarket downpipe. Is it catted or catless? What about the midpipe or race pipe? A damaged catalytic converter can produce constriction on the exhaust side. This backpressure can affect the ability of the turbo to produce maximum boost. We don't know what the previous owner did to the car. Checking for obstruction on the exhaust side needs to be done.
Another simple but possible answer would be an obstruction on the intake side, such as simply a dirty air filter.
What other mods, if any are there on this car? Another way is to use a stopwatch to time acceleration. A good and relatively safe option is for her to find a straight stretch of road and do a third gear wide open throttle pull from 50 to 75 mph. Published data for a stock gen 1 MS3 tells us that she should be covering that range in about 3.8 to 4.0 seconds, give or take a tenth or so. It it significantly slower than this, then something is wrong. If its acceleration is in that range, or quicker (given the downpipe), then she just encountered a quick Camry.
BTW:
I see that Car and Driver magazine tested a 2012 V6 Camry. Here is what they said regarding acceleration:
"And let us not neglect the power component. The Camry’s optional V-6 may be basically unchanged, but it delivers respectable hustle—0 to 60 mph in 5.8 seconds, the quarter-mile in 14.3 at 101 mph, 50 to 70 in 3.7."
There are stock MS3's that are running similar times in the quarter mile, although most run closer to 14 flat. With her aftermarket downpipe, even without a tune, she should be in the high 13's.
I see that Car and Driver magazine tested a 2012 V6 Camry. Here is what they said regarding acceleration:
"And let us not neglect the power component. The Camry’s optional V-6 may be basically unchanged, but it delivers respectable hustle—0 to 60 mph in 5.8 seconds, the quarter-mile in 14.3 at 101 mph, 50 to 70 in 3.7."
There are stock MS3's that are running similar times in the quarter mile, although most run closer to 14 flat. With her aftermarket downpipe, even without a tune, she should be in the high 13's.
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- Banned For Being A Troll
Last post was 20 Days ago..
She seems to suck at Car Forums too...
She seems to suck at Car Forums too...
Well all things equal, with mileage so low on a 2009 could it be possible that old fuel sat in the filter/system for a long long time and turned into varnish in various areas, which is causing a fuel flow issue when you are at 75%+ throttle? The strainer on your low pressure pump in the tank may also be clogged up a bit. I'd replace the filter for a start and see if that helps some.
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- Banned For Being A Troll
Your Grandpas Leaded gas would turn to poop in a month but modern 91or 93 has some fairly interesting processes and chemicals that the old gas didn't.
Check out some of the forums of hobbies like bikes and sleds. They are mostly seasonal vehicles.
It takes years for gas to change into something that would solidify into a mess.
not saying its not possible there is a fuel issue, just saying it won't have much to do with sitting.
having said that, each winter I fill the tank to the tits, and drain it in the spring to be replaced with fresh gas. I put the winter gas into my Mazda 3 so you see I am not worried about the fuel becoming crap, my concern is humidity and reduced octane over the winter.
Check out some of the forums of hobbies like bikes and sleds. They are mostly seasonal vehicles.
It takes years for gas to change into something that would solidify into a mess.
not saying its not possible there is a fuel issue, just saying it won't have much to do with sitting.
having said that, each winter I fill the tank to the tits, and drain it in the spring to be replaced with fresh gas. I put the winter gas into my Mazda 3 so you see I am not worried about the fuel becoming crap, my concern is humidity and reduced octane over the winter.
Your Grandpas Leaded gas would turn to poop in a month but modern 91or 93 has some fairly interesting processes and chemicals that the old gas didn't.
I hear you on modern gasoline, what i was thinking as a 2009 model year with 18k. It's possible that this car was bought in early 2008 and driven 1 year or so, then stored improperly for the next 3, which could be an issue for more than just gasoline. It's not the most likely scenario, but once in a while an odd case like this will pop up.
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