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TN/KY Tuners said:
He he he, this is what it all comes down to. You gotta pay to play and like you said, most people would be happy with the basic stuff for a little more Zoom Zoom.
(drive2)
Another "new to modding" newbie thread.
- Thread starter hyouriittai
- Start date
He he he, this is what it all comes down to. You gotta pay to play and like you said, most people would be happy with the basic stuff for a little more Zoom Zoom.
(drive2)
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
bradicus18 said:
I whole heartedly agree with you, little things make the poor folks happy lol. I dont make that much and Ive got a ton of bills, but I save up and buy s***, like I just bought a 21.5mm sway bar that cost me 253$ and now the car handles like a slot car.
Chris
hyouriittai
Sleepy Samurai
- :
- '94 Infiniti G20
Thanks for jumping back in, Bradicus. I think I need to revise my original statement of 120-140 HP. Although those would be nice numbers, being that my budget is tight, I think practicality, and as you said a little more "zoom zoom", is now my new priority.
Thanks again everyone for contributing.
Thanks again everyone for contributing.
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
*Takes bow* Glad to help out a fellow NA tuner 
Chris
Chris
F1 cars don't care about cracking them. they DO have an unlimited budget, and the saved weight is worth it to them.TN/KY Tuners said:
*sigh*
We have some of the strictest emmissions laws in the world here. Ok we don't have to get them retested, and we dont have laws nearing what they have in california, but our laws are stricter than most of the states in america.
As for backpressure...do some research. You DONT go for more torque at the expense of flow. You get it through head work, better headers, more agressive scavenging and cams. if you get it through impedence of flow you are going to be pushign s*** up a hill with a stick trying to get any sort of power up top. Low end power means nothing. Do you NEED bigtime torque for putting around the street? whats your opperating RPM on the track? what part of hte power curve are you using when you are going for it? if you answered "mid to top end" on any of that, backpressure is a complete waste of time. Do some reading.
as for the "fart can" being annoying and "only benificial to a high compression car/turbo car".... you are missing the point completely. Any free flowing muffler is of benifit to ANY car because it robs less power from the motor by introducing little to NO backpressure/restriction. And they can sound annoying, yes, but only if you don't run a pre-muffler further back (another cannon, bigger, etc....or resonators).
Twilightprotege runs stock internals, which does not equate to high compression, and gets huge benifit out of a cannon muffler. And it doesn't sound annoying at all...I know people with magnaflow oval mufflers that sound more "farty".
I know what the outcome is because i work on more than my own car. I also do alot of reading, research, and listening to people who are in the business. As for dropping valves or whatever - yeah, maybe on a 1960s sh!tbox... modern valves will have no trouble associated with complete clean burning of fuel. The need for backpressure is moot. The whole backpressure sh!t is the worlds biggest myth. Good luck to you chasing big power with it. Because you wont. Oh your car will be a rocket off the mark...but stretch your rev limiter out a bit, and just watch it start to starve for breathability.
I don't listen to "idiots" who say "real life" things are "myths"... i listen to EXPERTS in the exhaust field. Go email burns stainless and ask them what they think of backpressure. While your at it, email Trevor at CES racing in australia and ask him if he considers backpressure to be a good idea.
If backpressure is such a great idea, tell me how much backpressure do i need in my system to develop a given amount of power at say, 3000rpm? can you calculate it? or is it just guess work and experience? Cos guess work and experience equates to bulls***. If it cannot be measured, cannot be calculated, and cannot be predicted, it cannot be correct.
as for racing, i am an avid drag racer. Yesterday i went out and raced in a rather large meet, running a 3 inch (yes, you read right, 3in) side exit exhaust system. Absolutely NO CHANCE of backpressure. What happened? i dropped 3 tenths of a second off my PB...I ran a PB mile per hour as well (a big indication of increased power).
edit:
Heres just a cou-ple of links that are worth reading... i can find more for you if you like.
http://www.miata.net/garage/KnowYourCar/S4_Back.html
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/sue462/backpressuretorquemyth.htm
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Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
LordWorm said:
After reading this and laughing further at your stories of no backpressure...Id love for you to prove to us with your own personal information such as Dyno print outs and proven track times and slips that you ran a stock motor with nothing but 3in exhaust and a microtech and dropped .3sec off your time...on that note...3tenths is nothing but a good launch, I know because the last time I ran drag racing, I ran my first run at a 10.9 in the 1/8th mi and then ran a 10.7, then ran a 10.6...so overall I dropped .3sec off my overall time...its called heating your tires up and knowing what the **** you are doing.
You can do such things as shaving the block and head to raise compression...therefore needing a free flowing exhaust to release more pressure.
On the topic of where I get the most power, my power band is 4500-5800rpm's. And yes I understand about what you are saying overall with needing to be at a mid or high RPM to go up hills and all that...thank you for clerifying that for those of us who DONT drive or no nothing about cars. In addition to this battle of backpressure...since this obviously is going to be a on going battle...Ive noticed a lack in my drag racing times as well as others who just have a straight pipe exhaust...such as my buddy Kevin, 2007 Mustang GT 5speed. Hes got a 2.5in straight pipe..all he has on it is the stock cat. When he first got the car he ran a 9.0 in the 1/8th mile...2weeks later (after running consistant times for 2weeks) he then thought that a straight pipe would sound a lot better, so he had the muffler shop cut off the mufflers and weld in just a piece of pipe. He gained time on his 60ft and he gained .4sec on his trap times as well. He ran a 9.6, a 9.4, and another 9.4. So ya I guess you are right, Im just a moron and know nothing about cars and should just give up a debate on back pressure, since I obviously know nothing about what I am talking about. Oh and on the drag racing times the best I ever got in my car with the free flowing fart can muffler was a 11.1 in the 1/8th mile. So again, I dont know what Im talking about...guess Im just a dumb American that doesnt know what Im talking about.(headshake
As for building your head and all that to increase flow, yes I agree this is important. But running a straight pipe with no backpressure is just idiotic.
And no you dont have to have a 1960's motor to blow a valve. I know, because we just rebuilt my buddy Dustins head in his 1991 Honda CRX Si, and he had to rebuild it because of the fart can exhaust with 3in piping. So again Ill say it...Im just a moron that knows nothing about cars so I should just shut up now right?
Chris
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
"As a general rule, a normally aspirated MX-5 will get better high RPM performance with a 2 1/4" exhaust system (2 1/2" or above is just too wide to retain exhaust gas velocity for street driving). The general consensus is that a 2 1/4" system is for mid to high RPM petrol heads. Your mechanic should be able to advise you what exhaust system will best suit you driving style and needs." - Rob Sparga
Hmm sounds like someone agrees with me. And since Matt, the guy we're trying to help give advice to DOES NOT RACE and only drives to and from school, this would make me correct in what I said, and the "theory" of a 3in straight pipe as a good idea for normal street driving, a bunch of horse s*** (flame2)
Chris
Hmm sounds like someone agrees with me. And since Matt, the guy we're trying to help give advice to DOES NOT RACE and only drives to and from school, this would make me correct in what I said, and the "theory" of a 3in straight pipe as a good idea for normal street driving, a bunch of horse s*** (flame2)
Chris
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
LordWorm said:
Since I went down in sizing on my muffler Ive gained a lot more power, and my performance below 80mph is great, and a lot better since I put that borla muffler on there.
The reason I say below 80mph, is because that is where my car is tuned at, for AutoX since I wont use real high RPM's for that I tuned the fuel for lower range power.
The main reason for this debate was to help Matt out with his wanting a peppier daily driver...not to drag race his s*** can into the ground with a 3in straight pipe. If you would take the time to talk to the guy and find out what he wants...you would know. I talked to him for a while and I told him exactly what Ive done and he said.."thats just want I want, something thats a little quicker but I wanna save money, Im not looking for some crazy race car." Just to add on...Ive also got a lot better gas mileage with my Borla than I ever got with the Fart Cannon.
I am basing my knowledge and experience off of my own car not other peoples...and Im sure you are too, since you talked about your 3in straight pipe with side exit...why someone would put side exit on a Protege I will never know, and Im not sure Id want to know.
Chris
I'm talking street car as well
my custom 4-1 headers with a RACING MERGE COLLECTOR will develop more "bottom end torque" on a 2.5in system with high flow cat and straight through muffler than an OBX header on a 2.25in system thats restrictive.
The merge collector, combined with agressive scavenging will make it create above par low end torque, without sacrificing outright top end power, whereas a restrictive system will give you above par low end torque whilst absolutely destroying the revability of the motor, and killing top end power.
As for why I put the side exit on the car, I am still waiting on fabrication of flanges and jigs for my header, and needed to get the most out of the car for the meet I just attended. The easiest/cheapest way to get it done was to go side exit infront of the front right hand wheel, it cost me the price of 1 bend + a bit of straight and some 5mm steel for a flange. Why 3in? we had some laying around in the workshop from another build we're working on. The result? more power, faster times, and a very noisy car.
It is of course temporary, i'm back to the standard system now. Its illegal to drive with that thing on the road as it is deafening at 15ft. Its been 2 days and my ears are still ringing.
my custom 4-1 headers with a RACING MERGE COLLECTOR will develop more "bottom end torque" on a 2.5in system with high flow cat and straight through muffler than an OBX header on a 2.25in system thats restrictive.
The merge collector, combined with agressive scavenging will make it create above par low end torque, without sacrificing outright top end power, whereas a restrictive system will give you above par low end torque whilst absolutely destroying the revability of the motor, and killing top end power.
As for why I put the side exit on the car, I am still waiting on fabrication of flanges and jigs for my header, and needed to get the most out of the car for the meet I just attended. The easiest/cheapest way to get it done was to go side exit infront of the front right hand wheel, it cost me the price of 1 bend + a bit of straight and some 5mm steel for a flange. Why 3in? we had some laying around in the workshop from another build we're working on. The result? more power, faster times, and a very noisy car.
It is of course temporary, i'm back to the standard system now. Its illegal to drive with that thing on the road as it is deafening at 15ft. Its been 2 days and my ears are still ringing.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
TN/KY and lordworm settle both down.
TN - you're wrong. wrong wrong wrong. backpressure is the enemy of ANY exhaust system. you're confusing backpressure with exhaust velocity. small pipes give exhaust velocity, but as soon as you start to flow too much exhaust gas for the pipe, you get backpressure. backpressure will KILL any power. do you think a 1" exhaust will work well on a 5L engine? that'll create poop loads of backpressure. as i have always said, backpressure is the most misused term in all automotive industry. oh and the burnt valves stuff - that's an old school thing when they used carb's and went to a bigger exhaust without jetting the carb for more fuel. another thing too - when you go to a smaller exhaust system to make more power down load, thus making a lot more torque. torque is what you feel when you plant it, this is why so many exhaust shops say to go a 2" system etc - makes the customer feel as if they are getting "more power", when in fact they are just getting more usuable torque. but what does every day torque/power matter when you're racing. just as long as you stay in the high rpm, what does low rpm power matter? want to overtake someone on the street, change down a gear or 2 and get into your power band.
again, you can go too big of an exhaust and that will lose you power, but going too small will KILL your power as soon as you get BACKPRESSURE
now, both of you, enough arguing.
TN - you're wrong. wrong wrong wrong. backpressure is the enemy of ANY exhaust system. you're confusing backpressure with exhaust velocity. small pipes give exhaust velocity, but as soon as you start to flow too much exhaust gas for the pipe, you get backpressure. backpressure will KILL any power. do you think a 1" exhaust will work well on a 5L engine? that'll create poop loads of backpressure. as i have always said, backpressure is the most misused term in all automotive industry. oh and the burnt valves stuff - that's an old school thing when they used carb's and went to a bigger exhaust without jetting the carb for more fuel. another thing too - when you go to a smaller exhaust system to make more power down load, thus making a lot more torque. torque is what you feel when you plant it, this is why so many exhaust shops say to go a 2" system etc - makes the customer feel as if they are getting "more power", when in fact they are just getting more usuable torque. but what does every day torque/power matter when you're racing. just as long as you stay in the high rpm, what does low rpm power matter? want to overtake someone on the street, change down a gear or 2 and get into your power band.
again, you can go too big of an exhaust and that will lose you power, but going too small will KILL your power as soon as you get BACKPRESSURE
now, both of you, enough arguing.
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
twilightprotege said:
So overall we were both right, but I was just using the wrong terminology? I dunno about "exhaust velocity" Ive never heard that term used before. So I guess my bad for never hearing the term Exhaust Velocity before? Ive never seen someone gain power from having a free flowing exhaust system, at high or low RPM, so I guess thats a new one for me.
Chris
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
chris you're right in terms of needing an exhaust not too big, but your terminology is all screwy.
exhaust velocity is the absolute key to NA exhausts. you want maximum velocity - which you get from having an exhaust system as small as you need to get rid of all of the exhaust. 2.25" starts to peak out around 180/190 engine HP on a 2L engine. it just cant flow any more exhaust gas and thus creates masses of backpressure, instantly killing power
exhaust velocity is the absolute key to NA exhausts. you want maximum velocity - which you get from having an exhaust system as small as you need to get rid of all of the exhaust. 2.25" starts to peak out around 180/190 engine HP on a 2L engine. it just cant flow any more exhaust gas and thus creates masses of backpressure, instantly killing power
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
So...what all else can we do that wont cost a s*** load, to gain some power? Ive done most the basic stuff, intake header exhaust...and ive played around wit h the fuel a little but thats it. And I dont wanna buy a MicroTech...mainly because I dont have $900+ falling out of my ass lol. I thought about a Apexi SAFC II controller...but dont have the money to have it tuned. Any other suggestions?
Chris
Chris
some cheap stuff you can do:TN/KY Tuners said:
plugs and leads (wont gain much if anything but can't hurt either!)
Under drive pulley
light weight flywheel
the americano intake manifold can be modified also i believe (remove VTCS etc)
Throttle body coolant bypass (free mod...)
electric water pump will get load off the engine (but put it back on the altenator, but from all reports its a net gain)
then
eventually you are going to need fuel and spark management though - the standard ecu just will not cut it. Yes the microtech (and others) sound very expensive - but you wont get a cheaper increase in power from any other modification.
Take your pick..microtech, haltech, whatever - or some sort of piggyback ecu that lets you play with the fuel maps... doesn't really matter which way you go, as long as it works on our cars, and as long as it can do everything you want it to do.
and
do all that stuff and your essentially where Twilightprotege is. Much further than that and you are talking rebuild, extensive head work, and so forth....thats when it starts getting stupidly expensive.
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
What is the throttle body coolant by pass? where do you re route that? And what do you gain from that?
Chris
Chris
Basically theres a coolant line that runs up into the throttle body, then back out of the throttle and into the rest of the system...you pull the lines off that attach to the throttle body and just plumb the line you pulled off the throttle body into where the line coming off the throttle was going. Tis kinda hard to explain... once you get in there and have a look you should be able to work it out though.TN/KY Tuners said:
I am under the impression it exists to warm up the throttle body and prevent it sticking in cold temperatures (sub zero sort of things). Gains would be barely registerable - but its a free modification. The theory behind doing it goes that the throttle body is kept cooler, therefore air passing into it is kept cooler also. Cooler air = denser air, which means more fuel can be added which means more power can be generated.
Its probably a 1 horse power modification...but in the NA game you chase whatever you can get.
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
Lol ya i hear ya on the HP game...if it adds 1hp and its free..**** it..its a free gain lol. Im gonna go look at it right now just cuz I wanna see what it is lol.
Chris
Chris
heh..theres other "free" things you can do to make the car faster without making more power... take a look at removing lots of the plastic moulding, engine dampners that do nothing, hooks for engine cranes to connect to the motor, covers, clips, brackets and so forth you can strip out of the engine bay.
I've probably taken 20 kilo's worth of weight out of the engine bay...that equates to a noticable difference.....and hasn't added a single horse power
I've probably taken 20 kilo's worth of weight out of the engine bay...that equates to a noticable difference.....and hasn't added a single horse power
Shift2xlr8
Member
- :
- 2002 Protege ES
My motor is pretty damn cleared out, Ill post a pic up..gimme a minute.
Chris
Chris
