Another "new to modding" newbie thread.

[hyouriittai]

Hey guys. I've been doing alot of searches and reading throughout the forums. I checked out similar theads to the one I'm starting here, but alot of the folks are really interested in drag racing. I find that interesting, especially what some of the 2.0 proteges are capable of with alot of patience and hard work, but i'm not sure if I'll ever be going that route.

With that said, I still do want to do some modifications to my car. I've been writing down parts and prices and trying to feel my way through this. Part of it is that I'd like to start doing my own work on my car - my new MP5 is kind of my fresh slate, after driving my '86 Maxima to the ground in high school.

In short, I want a car I can call "mine."

I'm not all that familiar with engine work, other than the simple maintenance things: plugs, air filter, I've changed the distributor cap on my Maxima, oil change, etc. But I am technically inclined and willing to learn.

So here's my goal: 120-140 whp, naturally aspirated. I've seen some people say that this is unrealstic, but I've also seen some people go above and beyond this, NA.

My understanding is that, no matter what mods I install, this is going to require some fine tuning. So: considering that I will be doing mostly street driving, but want a kick in the ass that 103whp can't offer, what would be the most practical EMS to look into? MPI, Microtech, Link, MegaSquirt, Haltech?

Another question is, are there any short headers out there that'll give me some reasonable gains (read: worth the money), but help me keep the "cat?"
I'm mostly worried about getting slapped for illegal modifications. Ideally, I'd want to find a 4-2-1 header, but I'm not sure what the pains are as far as emissions testing goes.

Lastly, I don't see a whole lot of people talking about putting an LSD in their cars, especially not NA. Is it just unnecessary? I thought that, maybe once all the mods were in and tuned, the LSD would help top it off. Of course, I'm comletely ignorant when it comes to cars, so I could be off my rocker.

That's "all" I guess. Sorry about the huge post.

 

[16902]

Your goals are achievable.

Obviously start off with exhaust, intake, header, flywheel, underdrive pulley, etc.

For a "shorty" header, the only one made is a Wagner header. You can sometimes find them for sale here on the forums but they are no longer made.

Once you are ready to do EMS, it seems like the Microtech might be the way to go because there are a few N/A folks using it on here that can give you some help.

Then you can start looking at intake/exhaust cams, high compression pistons, headwork and all that stuff. Good luck. Twilightprotege, Lordworm, and Installshield have a wealth of information on N/A stuff.

 

[hyouriittai]

Your goals are achievable.

Obviously start off with exhaust, intake, header, flywheel, underdrive pulley, etc.

For a "shorty" header, the only one made is a Wagner header. You can sometimes find them for sale here on the forums but they are no longer made.

Once you are ready to do EMS, it seems like the Microtech might be the way to go because there are a few N/A folks using it on here that can give you some help.

Then you can start looking at intake/exhaust cams, high compression pistons, headwork and all that stuff. Good luck. Twilightprotege, Lordworm, and Installshield have a wealth of information on N/A stuff.

Thanks for the reply! I've been reading alot of those guys' threads, and was pretty damn impressed.

I read this alot, that the whole I/H/E modification should be done first. Is this simply because of the relative affordability, or are there deeper reasons behind this? I.e., are these the only mods that will be competant without tuning, or something?

I was looking at the FSZE intake camshaft, pistons and intake manifold. The former are pretty affordable -- is there a reason why this shouldn't be my first purchase/install?

Also, does anyone out there have any input about the Limited Slip Differential question? Thanks.

 

[16902]

Thanks for the reply! I've been reading alot of those guys' threads, and was pretty damn impressed.

I read this alot, that the whole I/H/E modification should be done first. Is this simply because of the relative affordability, or are there deeper reasons behind this? I.e., are these the only mods that will be competant without tuning, or something?

I was looking at the FSZE intake header, pistons and intake manifold. The former are pretty affordable -- is there a reason why this shouldn't be my first purchase/install?

Also, does anyone out there have any input about the Limited Slip Differential question? Thanks.

As far as pistons/cams and stuff, the Microtech is what would allow you to really take advantage of those mods. You will get a small gain without it, but you are better off just starting with the I/H/E to open up your engine.

Another cheap thing to do is remove the VTCS from your stock intake manifold. This will give you a bump as well.

Here is the "How to" - http://flatblack.somethingsomething.org/p5/porting/

I had the MSP LSD for a short period on an N/A car and while it is noticeable, it probably isn't necessary. It does help from take off but it can also torque steer you into a wall...LOL

 

[hyouriittai]

I was also wondering about porting the intake manifold. I'm not machinist, but I've worked with rotary tools a few times on art projects. I read through the forum's resident "how to," but it makes it look so easy.

What's the difficulty level on porting, really?

 

[jomoyo069]

hey.. the wagner shorty header is for sale now.. cheap http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123661784

 

[LordWorm]

Yeah do I/H/E first - if i had my time over i would have done this..simply because the gains will seem more noticable (though perhaps not as high in the real world - microtech doesn't play with the shape of the curve so much as just lift it up - so you spend a fair bit of coin and don't "feel" the difference as much as you would with I/H/E.).

As for praticalities of one ECU vs another...microtech is proven on the FSDE - i havn't heard much about others working on the car. Thats not to say they wont work, but you'll save yourself a buttload of stuffing around. The units are cheap, easy to install for a first timer and tuning them is a snap.

One thing i'd recommend is spending the extra coin on the wideband capability and the onboard logging..helps alot with getting a street tune out quickly.

140hp is definantly achievable... my goals are way higher than that and when you talk to people who know what they are on about like Twilightprotege and installshield, even my goals are not outside the realms of possibilty.

Good luck with it!...welcome to the NA club, where rotten overlap, and noisey exhausts reign supreme

 

[hyouriittai]

Yeah do I/H/E first - if i had my time over i would have done this..simply because the gains will seem more noticable (though perhaps not as high in the real world - microtech doesn't play with the shape of the curve so much as just lift it up - so you spend a fair bit of coin and don't "feel" the difference as much as you would with I/H/E.).

As for praticalities of one ECU vs another...microtech is proven on the FSDE - i havn't heard much about others working on the car. Thats not to say they wont work, but you'll save yourself a buttload of stuffing around. The units are cheap, easy to install for a first timer and tuning them is a snap.

One thing i'd recommend is spending the extra coin on the wideband capability and the onboard logging..helps alot with getting a street tune out quickly.

140hp is definantly achievable... my goals are way higher than that and when you talk to people who know what they are on about like Twilightprotege and installshield, even my goals are not outside the realms of possibilty.

Good luck with it!...welcome to the NA club, where rotten overlap, and noisey exhausts reign supreme

As far as header goes, are you familiar with the gains on the Wagner short header? I know it's out of production, but as I stated earlier I'm worried about US, Washington State emissions testing. Ideally, I'd throw down some cash to get a 4-2-1, but those are even harder to find it seems.

Is there an intake that is recommended by other NA guys? I often read that one "might as well" get an affordable eBay CAI or SRI, but is the quality at all the same? What about installation? Is it necessary to relocate some stock components (coolant tank?) when installing an SRI or CAI?

Still interested in hearing more about any NA guys who used the MSP LSD.

 

[LordWorm]

As far as header goes, are you familiar with the gains on the Wagner short header? I know it's out of production, but as I stated earlier I'm worried about US, Washington State emissions testing. Ideally, I'd throw down some cash to get a 4-2-1, but those are even harder to find it seems.

Is there an intake that is recommended by other NA guys? I often read that one "might as well" get an affordable eBay CAI or SRI, but is the quality at all the same? What about installation? Is it necessary to relocate some stock components (coolant tank?) when installing an SRI or CAI?

Still interested in hearing more about any NA guys who used the MSP LSD.

Ok for starters i go against the grain when it comes to "short" headers... for my money, you'd be better off getting a longer header. I wont go down through all the theory cos its quite lengthy, but essentially the shorter the primaries, the later the power comes on.

Short headers are good at what they are designed to do, improve flow over the standard manifold and provide stock fitment, but when it comes to outright power gains, you can't go past a correctly tuned set of headers. Unfortunatly there isn't anything out there that is "correct"...AWR is, from what i've heard, the best 4-2-1 available. To give you an idea, the custom headers i'm having built, will collect exhaust gas at roughly the same spot as the stock second cat.... now thats a HUGE amount of length, but its been calculated that it will create optimum scavenging (and thus optimum performance) at my desired peak. It really depends on what you are going for I guess.

NA is a world of sacrifice, you sacrifice drivability, comfort, emissions compliance and the like all to get that illusive extra couple of horse power. I don't live in the USA, so I'm unfamilliar with your laws, but in my state in australia we are not subjected to annual emissions tests so I can kinda get away with more. I can still be slugged if i get hit with a road side compliance test, but it happens so rarely as to not be a problem.

as for SRI/CAI...go cold air. Get something thats about 2.75in diameter. Injen make good stuff, as do K & N but a local metal fabricator could make you a copy for less i'd think.. even less if you happen to be handy with a welder If you can find something on EBAY which meets the criteria, and is cheap, go for it... then spend the extra coin on a better filter and you'll be set. You will have to relocate the radiator overflow.... many people use an oil catch can for this job, looks smart, does the job well and lets you move the overflow out of the way.

Talk to Twilightprotege regarding the LSD... i'm installing one in the off season as I drag race my car, and the extra traction off of launch is an absolute must. Twilight also considers his LSD to be amongst the best handling upgrades he's done....and having taken a few hellish rides with him in his car, i'd kind of be inclined to agree

 

[hyouriittai]

Ok for starters i go against the grain when it comes to "short" headers... for my money, you'd be better off getting a longer header. I wont go down through all the theory cos its quite lengthy, but essentially the shorter the primaries, the later the power comes on.

Short headers are good at what they are designed to do, improve flow over the standard manifold and provide stock fitment, but when it comes to outright power gains, you can't go past a correctly tuned set of headers. Unfortunatly there isn't anything out there that is "correct"...AWR is, from what i've heard, the best 4-2-1 available. To give you an idea, the custom headers i'm having built, will collect exhaust gas at roughly the same spot as the stock second cat.... now thats a HUGE amount of length, but its been calculated that it will create optimum scavenging (and thus optimum performance) at my desired peak. It really depends on what you are going for I guess.

NA is a world of sacrifice, you sacrifice drivability, comfort, emissions compliance and the like all to get that illusive extra couple of horse power. I don't live in the USA, so I'm unfamilliar with your laws, but in my state in australia we are not subjected to annual emissions tests so I can kinda get away with more. I can still be slugged if i get hit with a road side compliance test, but it happens so rarely as to not be a problem.

as for SRI/CAI...go cold air. Get something thats about 2.75in diameter. Injen make good stuff, as do K & N but a local metal fabricator could make you a copy for less i'd think.. even less if you happen to be handy with a welder If you can find something on EBAY which meets the criteria, and is cheap, go for it... then spend the extra coin on a better filter and you'll be set. You will have to relocate the radiator overflow.... many people use an oil catch can for this job, looks smart, does the job well and lets you move the overflow out of the way.

Talk to Twilightprotege regarding the LSD... i'm installing one in the off season as I drag race my car, and the extra traction off of launch is an absolute must. Twilight also considers his LSD to be amongst the best handling upgrades he's done....and having taken a few hellish rides with him in his car, i'd kind of be inclined to agree

Thanks for the info, there, LordWorm. It really helps.

I was wondering, though, as the AWR 4-2-1 header is getting harder and harder to find, one do you think getting a similar header fabricated up would cost? I understand custom work isn't cheap..

 

[hyouriittai]

Oh, and aren't those oil catch cans opaque? How would I check my overflow levels? Haha, sorry if this is a dumb quesiton.

 

[LordWorm]

Oh, and aren't those oil catch cans opaque? How would I check my overflow levels? Haha, sorry if this is a dumb quesiton.

nah, billet alluminium in alot of cases..some have a clear gauge on teh side to read how much they are filled by.
or you could just open the lid on top

 

[hyouriittai]

I have a new question for all you N/A folks out there.

For those of you who have installed the FSH9 cams and the 10:4:1 FS-ZE piston set, what sort of gains were seen upon installation without a tune? With a tune?

I've searched these on the forums, and I have a hard time finding an answer, considering that most people that have done these mods have already messed with their exhaust and the like.

I was also discussing this with a friend of a friend's, who has more experience in this whole thing than I do (then again, that's not saying much.) Would these mods, tuned or no, shorten the longevity of my FS-DE P5?

Thanks in advance guys, you're all great help.

 

[rjs_protege5]

(sorry to be off topic, but..) i've read EVERYTHING written so far, and this thread is pretty informative and is a lot of help.. Just letting you know, i'm gonna be following this thread, and learning more, just because i am a COMPLETE noob at performance mods.. thanks guys!!

(END THREAD JACK)

Peace,
RJ

 

[mig360mBJ]

NA to $$$$$. Annual emissions tests whats that. Nothing like emissions tests in Trinidad. Only emissions tests is if your engine smoking alot of white or black smoke so you cant see the car or raod then the Police will do somthing.

 

[LordWorm]

I have a new question for all you N/A folks out there.

For those of you who have installed the FSH9 cams and the 10:4:1 FS-ZE piston set, what sort of gains were seen upon installation without a tune? With a tune?

if you are going to do this, you are FAR FAR FAR better off doing rods while you are at it, and getting custom pistons. Ok it'll cost you more, but you'll end up with a better rod ratio, which coupled with an aftermarket ecu will support a much higher rev limit safely.

I've searched these on the forums, and I have a hard time finding an answer, considering that most people that have done these mods have already messed with their exhaust and the like.

yes, do the easy bolt on stuff first. You don't want one of your very first mods to involve tearing the engine down, putting your car off the road for a few weeks. Get your exhaust, intake, clutch, flywheel, UDP, some beefcake tyres, aftermarket ecu and then think about doing rods and pistons once the motor is due for a rebuild.

I was also discussing this with a friend of a friend's, who has more experience in this whole thing than I do (then again, that's not saying much.) Would these mods, tuned or no, shorten the longevity of my FS-DE P5?

Built correctly, no...it shouldnt' shorten the life of the motor significantly. Obviously reving the motor past the factory redline is going to shorten the life of the motor, but if you plan to build, then you can build to support higher RPM.

That being said, its a risk you take. I push my car to 7k everyday on stock internals..one day its going to let go... but its a risk that you take.....

Thanks in advance guys, you're all great help.

you're welcome

 

[hyouriittai]

yes, do the easy bolt on stuff first. You don't want one of your very first mods to involve tearing the engine down, putting your car off the road for a few weeks. Get your exhaust, intake, clutch, flywheel, UDP, some beefcake tyres, aftermarket ecu and then think about doing rods and pistons once the motor is due for a rebuild.

What about on the lines of suspension? Also , I just wanna clarify, I won't be doing any racing. Looking for a fun, daily driver.

 

[LordWorm]

What about on the lines of suspension? Also , I just wanna clarify, I won't be doing any racing. Looking for a fun, daily driver.

eibach springs and tokico blues or illumina's look to be the combination of choice.

OR

coilovers if you have the extra coin.


Get upgraded swaybars

LSD is a good all round handling mod from what i've been told.

Bigger strut tower brace would be benificial. Custom rear strut tower brace will tighten up the rear of the car nicely.


If handling is your game, stay well away from big rims. Chubby sidewalls are a heck of a lot more forgiving around corners. I've driven in a protege with hot suspension running 17in wheels and licorice straps for tyres, and when its on the limit, its absolutely scary around corners...i thought i was going to die.

 

[hyouriittai]

eibach springs and tokico blues or illumina's look to be the combination of choice.

OR

coilovers if you have the extra coin.


Get upgraded swaybars

LSD is a good all round handling mod from what i've been told.

Bigger strut tower brace would be benificial. Custom rear strut tower brace will tighten up the rear of the car nicely.


If handling is your game, stay well away from big rims. Chubby sidewalls are a heck of a lot more forgiving around corners. I've driven in a protege with hot suspension running 17in wheels and licorice straps for tyres, and when its on the limit, its absolutely scary around corners...i thought i was going to die.

I think that may be the route I'll be going first. I'm not sure how long I will have my P5 - not to say I am displeased with it, or that I'm selling it soon. Just not sure.

So I've been looking at Illuminas for sale on the forums and on eBay. Are all sets of illuminas and springs the same, or are there kits put together for specific models of cars? I keep seeing stuff on eBay that specifies Hondas, etc. but they are still Tokico Illuminas. Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Unfortunately, when I bought the car, it came on 18 inch wheels. Luckily, the guy gave me the stock P5 wheels with it, but I don't have the tool to remove the lugs on the 18's. I've been wanting to go back to the 16s, just because I think the 18's attract to much attention, and I really suck at parallel parking, therefore: curb rash.

I'm very unfamiliar with tire measurements / sizes. What would you recommend?

 

[LordWorm]

I think that may be the route I'll be going first. I'm not sure how long I will have my P5 - not to say I am displeased with it, or that I'm selling it soon. Just not sure.

So I've been looking at Illuminas for sale on the forums and on eBay. Are all sets of illuminas and springs the same, or are there kits put together for specific models of cars? I keep seeing stuff on eBay that specifies Hondas, etc. but they are still Tokico Illuminas. Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Unfortunately, when I bought the car, it came on 18 inch wheels. Luckily, the guy gave me the stock P5 wheels with it, but I don't have the tool to remove the lugs on the 18's. I've been wanting to go back to the 16s, just because I think the 18's attract to much attention, and I really suck at parallel parking, therefore: curb rash.

I'm very unfamiliar with tire measurements / sizes. What would you recommend?

Springs and shocks are designed specifically for individual models of cars. you need to get them for the P5.

I'd go back to 16's. Hell i'm considering a set of 15's for friday night hill climb hell runs.

I run the stock rims, with 205/45/16 tyres, and it handles really really well (i have no aftermarket suspension mods installed at the moment...).

Go back to 16's, roughly the same dimensions as the stockos. Keep them lightweight too.... big solid chrome wheels will slow you down... get something forged aluminium if the budget will stretch that far.

Also don't scrimp out on rubber. Get the best rubber you can afford - after all, its the only part of your car thats physically in contact with the road