2019 Mazda CX-5 vs. 2019 Toyota RAV4 (Car&Driver)

[yrwei52]

Costco sells the cheapest gas which is still Top Tier
The formulation of gas is to get a cleaner burning gas, which is part of the state's environmental regulations. The process of refining it is more expensive and neighboring states don't require it and neighboring states' refineries don't follow it.
Of course, in addition, there is state tax levied on gas, there are few independent retailers (e.g. not well known across the US), many more drivers and no pipelines. All these make gas more expensive.
In the 90s, California suffered from high air pollution, with the introduction of this special formulation in 1996, pollution dropped significantly, specifically ozone levels (which at ground level is a measure of unhealthy air).

The immigrant population in the bay area of high tech engineers and their families is very large. These are especially from countries like China and India, but also from Europe, Russia, other Asian countries or any place with a good higher education system.
Yes, homes here are super expensive. An average home is > $1M. This average home is much less nice than an average home in most other places. There aren't many 4500 sq ft homes in the bay area. Some coveted locations have small, low standards buildings, which are > $2M, some with 1 car garage converted into some other type of leaving space.
Even well paid tech workers, which rent, will often choose to buddy-up and rent a single apartment or house together. This is what the neighbors across the street from us do.
The trailer park close to my office has some Tesla / Mercedes in some driveways (cars which are common here). A 2 bedroom apartment in a meh neighborhood but close to many high tech offices are $3600/month.

I always thought California would set up a standard of gasoline formulation for lower emission and all 49 states follow. Thanks for the explanation.

Speaking about housing in Bay Area, I saw people put up a tent in the backyard and rent it out on Airbnb!

 

[bigtex]

Even if a CX5 had no issues - it needs so many touch points on the service side - brakes / coolant / Tx fluid / Oil changes / Belts will die occasionally after 100K miles. Even if you had no major failure and did preventive maintenance = equal to the cost of replacing a hybrid battery in itself. Add the time you spend - your salary hourly rate times 1.5 as it is your vacation time - it takes far more to keep a car like CX-5 on road than a hybrid.

Toyota Hybrids as a family are one of the most reliable drivetrains in the US. Its shocking to see lines of Camry Hybrids with 450K miles lining Copart lots. Their interior gets trashed far before their drivetrain. Prius, RX400h, HS250h, CT200h, Avalon, Camry, ES300h - 300K miles without even trying and being OCD about maintenance. Legends. Whereas here we have people - I am going change my brake fluid every 30k miles / 4 times Tx fluid 80K miles / Coolant 100K miles / Belts after 100K miles / Oil change every 5K miles.

Another gem was Escape Hybrid - doing your brakes @ 120K miles, eCVT needing 1 service every 150K miles, no belt driven mechanism in newer hybrids (not sure if this was true for 2011 Escape).

Reduced maintenance plus cost savings on hybrid means the hybrid pays for its own maintenance. Plus in city driving they are going to be very quiet - even new Corolla hybrid is very nice. The place where they fail is 75+ mph driving. Some of them have no pull whatsoever beyond 65-70.

I think you are joking (sometimes it's hard to tell), or maybe you are confusing Hybrids with a fully electric vehicle. You do realize that the RAV4 Hybrid has a gasoline engine and all the maintenance requirements that a CX5 has, correct? Oil and filter changes, air and cabin filters, engine coolant, and spark plugs are all part of owning a RAV4 Hybrid, just like the CX5. So are brakes, belts, transfer case and differential oil, etc. This is all in addition the the hybrid battery and associated components, that have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, but after that repair/replacement costs are on you.

Also, the "2 year fee maintenance" mentioned by yrwei is a little deceptive on his part, as it's 2 years or 25,000 miles, so you get 2 free oil changes. My dealer offered some free oil changes as well, but I declined.

Also not sure if anyone has mentioned that android auto is not available.

Attached maintenance schedule for 2018 RAV4 Hybrid, 2019 will be similar.
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/warranty/2018/T-MMS-18RAV4HV.pdf

 

[yrwei52]

I think you are joking (sometimes it's hard to tell), or maybe you are confusing Hybrids with a fully electric vehicle. You do realize that the RAV4 Hybrid has a gasoline engine and all the maintenance requirements that a CX5 has, correct? Oil and filter changes, air and cabin filters, engine coolant, and spark plugs are all part of owning a RAV4 Hybrid, just like the CX5. So are brakes, belts, transfer case and differential oil, etc. This is all in addition the the hybrid battery and associated components, that have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, but after that repair/replacement costs are on you.

Also, the "2 year fee maintenance" mentioned by yrwei is a little deceptive on his part, as it's 2 years or 25,000 miles, so you get 2 free oil changes. My dealer offered some free oil changes as well, but I declined.

Also not sure if anyone has mentioned that android auto is not available.

Attached maintenance schedule for 2018 RAV4 Hybrid, 2019 will be similar.
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/warranty/2018/T-MMS-18RAV4HV.pdf

About Toyota's 2-year free maintenance, you're right it does have some limitations. You'll get 2 free oil changes, tire rotations, etc. in the first 2 years as the oil change schedule on most Toyota's is 12 months or 10,000 miles. But for Toyota Yaris iA I have which is a Mazda2, the dealer told me I can only get 3 free oil changes in 2 years although I told the service advisor that Toyota's maintenance schedule for Yaris iA clearly states to change oil once every 6 month or 7,500 miles just like a Mazda. I'll make sure I get free cabin air filter during my last free maintenance as that cabin filter costs $52.80 list with 2-year replacement interval! (eek2)

 

[Kaps]

I think you are joking (sometimes it's hard to tell), or maybe you are confusing Hybrids with a fully electric vehicle. You do realize that the RAV4 Hybrid has a gasoline engine and all the maintenance requirements that a CX5 has, correct? Oil and filter changes, air and cabin filters, engine coolant, and spark plugs are all part of owning a RAV4 Hybrid, just like the CX5. So are brakes, belts, transfer case and differential oil, etc. This is all in addition the the hybrid battery and associated components, that have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, but after that repair/replacement costs are on you.

Also, the "2 year fee maintenance" mentioned by yrwei is a little deceptive on his part, as it's 2 years or 25,000 miles, so you get 2 free oil changes. My dealer offered some free oil changes as well, but I declined.

Also not sure if anyone has mentioned that android auto is not available.

Attached maintenance schedule for 2018 RAV4 Hybrid, 2019 will be similar.
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/warranty/2018/T-MMS-18RAV4HV.pdf

Yes I am joking. Most Ford and Toyota hybrids have eCVTs not traditional. You need to service once at 150K miles not like Mazda which you drain and fill 3 times every 75-80k miles. have fewer belt driven accessories, use 3-4 qts per oil change and need a 10K mile gap vs 5-7k for gas vehicles. Not all hybrids fall in this category: yota, honda (not IMA ones, only newer than 2013) and ford from 08 to 12 namely Fusion and Escape. Not sure how bullet proof 13 and newer Fusions are.
Here is the math: 2 oil changes on new Insight is $45 for oil/filter for 20K miles. A Mazda 3 for that same is $85. In hybrids you can skip brake service as it is regerative and causes less wear -120K miles for pads. In short if you DIY and keep a hybrid for 200k miles you'll save 1500 dollars or so for a Corolla segment car plus labor time. If you go to dealer - the savings get bigger. Plus gas savings. Plus if you get a solid hybrid its resale will be higher. Plus if you sell your hybrid when gas is expensive you get the point.

 

[ALafya]

As a previous Prius owner, I was not very impressed with the quality of the vehicle. The battery, motors, transmission were all good. Some oil leak and, I think, a broken water pump on the engine itself. We did have quality issues with the interior: plastic parts with breaking fasteners, creaking.
It was not a fun car to drive, the CVT was a planetary type system, at the heart of the hybrid system, was really unpleasant, though on a long road trip you could easily see how much money your can save on gas by picking the Prius instead of the non hybrid alternative.

In the RAV4, the pricing difference could be ~$2000 (XLE FWD vs XLE Hybrid) for a faster vehicle with a significantly better fuel economy.
At $3.5/Gal and 12K per year, that's ~$400 savings per year, so ~5 years until it makes sense.
However if you'd get an AWD anyway, the premium is a mere $400 difference, so you'd make it up in only 1 year. This is pretty impressive.
Of course, the an Adventure RAV4 has a better AWD system than the Hybrid, but for most people it may not matter.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

About Toyota's 2-year free maintenance, you're right it does have some limitations. You'll get 2 free oil changes, tire rotations, etc. in the first 2 years as the oil change schedule on most Toyota's is 12 months or 10,000 miles.

Overselling a bit? 2 oil changes and tire rotations? Big woop.

My Mazda CX-5 had free oil changes (up to 3 a year) from 2013 - 2017 when the dealer got bought out. I used 2-3 of those a year, so let's see, I officially received at least 8 free oil changes (I don't recall exactly, but around there give or take). Oh...plus 2 Mazda payed for after that. So 10-ish?

 

[bigtex]

Yes I am joking. Most Ford and Toyota hybrids have eCVTs not traditional. You need to service once at 150K miles not like Mazda which you drain and fill 3 times every 75-80k miles. have fewer belt driven accessories, use 3-4 qts per oil change and need a 10K mile gap vs 5-7k for gas vehicles. Not all hybrids fall in this category: yota, honda (not IMA ones, only newer than 2013) and ford from 08 to 12 namely Fusion and Escape. Not sure how bullet proof 13 and newer Fusions are.

I was just discussing the RAV4 Hybrid, and I think if you talk to good service managers and check out some RAV4 forums, you will see that they are also performing drain/fills on their CVT transmissions if they plan on keeping the vehicle a long time, even though there is no recommended trans fluid service interval, just like the CX5. If they plan on selling it at 100,000 miles, maybe they don't mess with it because that will be someone else's problem, right? Here is a receipt for CVT trans fluid change a guy did at 50,000 miles and they also only get about 4 liters per change. But I don't think there is a trans dipstick on the Toyota, so you need access to diagnostic tools or the dealership to change your fluid to measure levels at correct temps.

Oil changes on the RAV4 Hybrid take 0W20 just like the CX5, so the cost should be similar, but if you change at 10K instead of 7.5K, you would do 3 less oil changes every 100K for whatever that's worth. A lot of RAV4 owners change at 5K which is also a service interval from Toyota the for oil changes under certain conditions such as repeated trips of less than 5 miles under 32 degrees, extensive idling or low speed driving, towing or heavy vehicle loading.

 

[Unobtanium]

Yes I am joking. Most Ford and Toyota hybrids have eCVTs not traditional. You need to service once at 150K miles not like Mazda which you drain and fill 3 times every 75-80k miles. have fewer belt driven accessories, use 3-4 qts per oil change and need a 10K mile gap vs 5-7k for gas vehicles. Not all hybrids fall in this category: yota, honda (not IMA ones, only newer than 2013) and ford from 08 to 12 namely Fusion and Escape. Not sure how bullet proof 13 and newer Fusions are.
Here is the math: 2 oil changes on new Insight is $45 for oil/filter for 20K miles. A Mazda 3 for that same is $85. In hybrids you can skip brake service as it is regerative and causes less wear -120K miles for pads. In short if you DIY and keep a hybrid for 200k miles you'll save 1500 dollars or so for a Corolla segment car plus labor time. If you go to dealer - the savings get bigger. Plus gas savings. Plus if you get a solid hybrid its resale will be higher. Plus if you sell your hybrid when gas is expensive �� you get the point.

What on earth are you draining and filling 3x st 80k miles on a Mazda?

 

[Kaps]

What on earth are you draining and filling 3x st 80k miles on a Mazda?

Tx fluid. 3 is kind of overkill but 2 is needed.

 

[Kaps]

As a previous Prius owner, I was not very impressed with the quality of the vehicle. The battery, motors, transmission were all good. Some oil leak and, I think, a broken water pump on the engine itself. We did have quality issues with the interior: plastic parts with breaking fasteners, creaking.
It was not a fun car to drive, the CVT was a planetary type system, at the heart of the hybrid system, was really unpleasant, though on a long road trip you could easily see how much money your can save on gas by picking the Prius instead of the non hybrid alternative.

In the RAV4, the pricing difference could be ~$2000 (XLE FWD vs XLE Hybrid) for a faster vehicle with a significantly better fuel economy.
At $3.5/Gal and 12K per year, that's ~$400 savings per year, so ~5 years until it makes sense.
However if you'd get an AWD anyway, the premium is a mere $400 difference, so you'd make it up in only 1 year. This is pretty impressive.
Of course, the an Adventure RAV4 has a better AWD system than the Hybrid, but for most people it may not matter.

Hybrid XLE has more content than std. XLE. Hybrid resale value is higher too. So if you keep it looooong term, you save a lot on fuel. If you sell early, you recoup 40-50% of hybrid premium anyways.
All in a 200k mile ownership for Rav4 hybrid would save you 6-7,000 dollars in TX. California owners will see 9000+ dollars in savings.

 

[Unobtanium]

Tx fluid. 3 is kind of overkill but 2 is needed.

Oh, I don't do that. You can't put your random personal opinion out there as "expected maintenance cost" when comparing two vehicles, because what if I personally feel that AWD vehicles need tire rotations every 2500mi? What if I feel like tires need replacing at 4/32 while someone else says at 2/32? You can play "I think best if..." all day long and turn any car into a Ferrari in the maintenance dept.

 

[CX-5um]

If you like coarse sounding engines get the 2019 Rav4 gas engine. Heard one rev and I cringed.

 

[yrwei52]

Oil changes on the RAV4 Hybrid take 0W20 just like the CX5, so the cost should be similar, but if you change at 10K instead of 7.5K, you would do 3 less oil changes every 100K for whatever that's worth. A lot of RAV4 owners change at 5K which is also a service interval from Toyota the for oil changes under certain conditions such as repeated trips of less than 5 miles under 32 degrees, extensive idling or low speed driving, towing or heavy vehicle loading.

No, RAV4 with new Dynamic Force 2.5L and Hybrid use 0W-16 oil.

The frequency of oil change actually is doubled on Mazda in most cases as Mazda requires you to change oil in 6 months or 7,500 miles whichever comes first in normal driving condition. Comparing to 12 months on Toyota, 6-month OCI means your oil change cost is doubled.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

No, RAV4 with new Dynamic Force 2.5L and Hybrid use 0W-16 oil.

The frequency of oil change actually is doubled on Mazda in most cases as Mazda requires you to change oil in 6 months or 7,500 miles whichever comes first in normal driving condition. Comparing to 12 months on Toyota, 6-month OCI means your oil change cost is doubled.

I do like the idea of port and direct injection. Hopefully keep the carbon deposits at bay better.

Outside of that, MPG numbers, and potential maintenance savings, nothing about the RAV4 is at all desirable. I hope someone can take the technology innovations and put them in a vehicle that's actually worthy of being a Gen 1 CX-5 replacement. I certainly don't consider the Gen 2 to be that, but also neither is the RAV4. It's a clunky mess of a car aside from some engine innovations. I also heard one, and it sounded awful, the style looks like a tonka truck, and everything I've read seems to indicate they drive and feel like complete garbage like they always have.

So unless your main goal is literally only MPG and potential maintenance costs (still being debated), sure go for a RAV4. Outside of that though, I find the rest of the package of that vehicle to be complete garbage for enjoyment of driving. Of course I am not at all compelled by the Gen 2 CX-5 either outside of the turbo. Sad to say, I am not seeing much of anything out there being a worthy Gen 1 CX-5 replacement or successor.

 

[NelsonLewis]

I do like the idea of port and direct injection. Hopefully keep the carbon deposits at bay better.

Outside of that, MPG numbers, and potential maintenance savings, nothing about the RAV4 is at all desirable. I hope someone can take the technology innovations and put them in a vehicle that's actually worthy of being a Gen 1 CX-5 replacement. I certainly don't consider the Gen 2 to be that, but also neither is the RAV4. It's a clunky mess of a car aside from some engine innovations. I also heard one, and it sounded awful, the style looks like a tonka truck, and everything I've read seems to indicate they drive and feel like complete garbage like they always have.

So unless your main goal is literally only MPG and potential maintenance costs (still being debated), sure go for a RAV4. Outside of that though, I find the rest of the package of that vehicle to be complete garbage for enjoyment of driving. Of course I am not at all compelled by the Gen 2 CX-5 either outside of the turbo. Sad to say, I am not seeing much of anything out there being a worthy Gen 1 CX-5 replacement or successor.

Pretty much this...

As much as I want the turbo, I can't quite break down and do it either, nor might I for quite some time...

 

[sm1ke]

I am not seeing much of anything out there being a worthy Gen 1 CX-5 replacement or successor.

In your opinion, what would be required in a potential vehicle for it to be considered a "worthy Gen 1 CX-5 replacement"?

 

[ColoradoDriver]

In your opinion, what would be required in a potential vehicle for it to be considered a "worthy Gen 1 CX-5 replacement"?

The turbo is definitely a plus, but it's reserved to the top trims. I'd say a new NA equivalent, whether the Skyactiv-X or something else that improved the efficiency and performance of the NA trimmed CX-5. My biggest problem with the current NA Gen 2 is that it is very clearly worse than the Gen 1 CX-5 due to the rest of the style and design improvements. So to me an NA Gen 2 is a no go in terms of a successor to the NA Gen 1. MY fear with the 2.0L Skyactiv-X is that it won't outperform the 2.5L, even though it may be more efficient. I'd like to see performance improvements in the non-turbo trims as well.

 

[FRED48]

Ive lost track
Have you yet driven a gen 2, NA or turbo?

 

[rkmx5]

No, RAV4 with new Dynamic Force 2.5L and Hybrid use 0W-16 oil.

The frequency of oil change actually is doubled on Mazda in most cases as Mazda requires you to change oil in 6 months or 7,500 miles whichever comes first in normal driving condition. Comparing to 12 months on Toyota, 6-month OCI means your oil change cost is doubled.

OCI is 12 months for flexible maintenance using both Schedule 1 and 2 in the US. A 6-month OCI is only used for a fixed schedule recommended for police, taxi, or dusty conditions. The RAV4 and CX-5 are the same time interval.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

Ive lost track
Have you yet driven a gen 2, NA or turbo?

Turbo no, NA, yes. It is categorically a worse performer in the gen 2 vs the gen 1.

Edit: And make no mistake, I like this engine, but whether due to the added weight, or other design choices of the Gen 2, the Gen 2 performs worse than the Gen 1 with the same engine. So there is no way in hell id ever consider a gen 2 non-turbo to replace my gen 1 as it currently stands.