Breaking News: US plans to receive Ford Focus RS Canceled

[jred321]

i'd take a mustang over a 300hp fwd car (shrug). they'll get similar gas mileage (i got around 20mpg in my evo which was putting out similar power; number of cylinders matters little) and the mustang will have more usable power since asking the front wheels for that much grip is absurd. the mustang will also have the ability to go well above that power mark and still maintain usable power where any 300hp fwd car is over the usable power mark right out of the box.

many americans share a similar opinion (though different reasons i'm sure). the products that they want are not always the most practical and efficient. ford is building what people want to buy finally. doesn't matter if it's the best solution their job is to sell cars not to engineer the greatest car ever. to sell cars you build to what your customers want and that is what ford is doing. GM is starting to. chrysler, well, they built s*** nobody wants for a long time and have no plans for organic cars of their own so good luck to them

 

[tunersteve]

Ford got stupid 10 years ago when Nasser ran the show. Ford and Mullaly turned the ship around and are making more sensible decisions on the future of the company.

The last gen SVT Focus was a decent handling machine, and very capable. I would expect when the new one comes out in 2012 it would be no less capable, but have the power to back up the handling.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

I think regardless of what wheels are driving the car (RWD or FWD), it's still a pretty impressive accomplishment for Ford to have that Focus take corners and tracks like it does.

But someone would always rather have something different. Even if Ford made it AWD, someone would say "Well, i'd still rather have an EVO, rally proven heritage" or "Well, it's still no ____" fill in the blanks. So, I applaud them for keeping it in an acceptable price range, but i'm disappointed we won't be able to sing it's praises here.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

The last gen SVT Focus was a decent handling machine, and very capable.

Very capable but sadly no power! I remember seeing the Saleen-tuned Focus SVT's and they were asking damn near $30k for a car that had minor suspension tweaks and a bottle of NOS in the trunk!! I would have expected a supercharger for that price!

http://www.billwoodsford.com/saleen/saleencars/focuss121.php

 

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

i'd take a mustang over a 300hp fwd car (shrug). they'll get similar gas mileage (i got around 20mpg in my evo which was putting out similar power; number of cylinders matters little) and the mustang will have more usable power since asking the front wheels for that much grip is absurd. the mustang will also have the ability to go well above that power mark and still maintain usable power where any 300hp fwd car is over the usable power mark right out of the box.

many americans share a similar opinion (though different reasons i'm sure). the products that they want are not always the most practical and efficient. ford is building what people want to buy finally. doesn't matter if it's the best solution their job is to sell cars not to engineer the greatest car ever. to sell cars you build to what your customers want and that is what ford is doing. GM is starting to. chrysler, well, they built s*** nobody wants for a long time and have no plans for organic cars of their own so good luck to them

Im impress, Mustangs cant handle s***, take them to a track and any reasonable FWD car will perform better.. Have you been in a descent 300hp fwd car ? how can you say fwd have horrible traction ? Give me a break, Ive seen FWD cars raped rwd ones, Cmon you really have to go to Youtube and type TOUGUE Racing in Japan and youll see whats a good comparison and how real RWD,FWD, and AWD is all about.. they have videos of FWD vs RWD, and vise versa .. FWD cars performs much better than what you think..

 

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

I think regardless of what wheels are driving the car (RWD or FWD), it's still a pretty impressive accomplishment for Ford to have that Focus take corners and tracks like it does.

But someone would always rather have something different. Even if Ford made it AWD, someone would say "Well, i'd still rather have an EVO, rally proven heritage" or "Well, it's still no ____" fill in the blanks. So, I applaud them for keeping it in an acceptable price range, but i'm disappointed we won't be able to sing it's praises here.

Funny, Evos Rallye Proven right ? What car did Collin McRae uses to drive a Yugo or probably a Mustang GT? Give me a break

 

[jred321]

have you driven a new mustang? i'm from america and we know how awesome mustangs are over here. being in europe you don't understand the mustang.


seriously though the new mustang handles decently and is more than adequate for a daily driver. it's not a challenger

i say that powerful fwd cars have poor traction because they do. asking the front wheels to brake, turn, and handle a lot of power when accelerating is too much. esp since most fwd cars can only fit relatively narrow tires due to their suspension designs. a fwd car can be made plenty fast but it's not fast because of the power, it's fast because of the handling and the light weight. for me 250whp is the point at which the power in a fwd car becomes worthless. 300hp and up you'll need to run slicks to get any sort of reasonable traction so why bother unless it's a dedicated straight line car. i would much rather have a 200hp fwd car that is light and with phenomenal handling over a 300hp fwd car that is a little more portly and it doesn't have the same attention paid to its handling

 

[tunersteve]

I think regardless of what wheels are driving the car (RWD or FWD), it's still a pretty impressive accomplishment for Ford to have that Focus take corners and tracks like it does.

Agreed. It says a lot about the engineering that went into the car for them to help minimize understeer to the extent they've done with the RS.

But someone would always rather have something different. Even if Ford made it AWD, someone would say "Well, i'd still rather have an EVO, rally proven heritage" or "Well, it's still no ____" fill in the blanks. So, I applaud them for keeping it in an acceptable price range, but i'm disappointed we won't be able to sing it's praises here.

That goes back to simple 'magazine racing'. There will always be the " I'd prefer A over B" talk. Do the research and see what makes the car special, then drive it! Talking about it on paper and comparing numbers which are susceptible to error means very little in the real world.

Very capable but sadly no power! I remember seeing the Saleen-tuned Focus SVT's and they were asking damn near $30k for a car that had minor suspension tweaks and a bottle of NOS in the trunk!! I would have expected a supercharger for that price!

http://www.billwoodsford.com/saleen/saleencars/focuss121.php

The SVT got shortchanged in terms of power. Slap a S/C on it and you were all set for a great weekend racer, and cheap to maintain as well.

Im impress, Mustangs cant handle s***, take them to a track and any reasonable FWD car will perform better.. Have you been in a descent 300hp fwd car ? how can you say fwd have horrible traction ? Give me a break, Ive seen FWD cars raped rwd ones, Cmon you really have to go to Youtube and type TOUGUE Racing in Japan and youll see whats a good comparison and how real RWD,FWD, and AWD is all about.. they have videos of FWD vs RWD, and vise versa .. FWD cars performs much better than what you think..

This is a simple example of ignorance. Have you driven one? If not, don't go on and on about a FWD car beating it. Open your mind up and see the big picture.

Go check out Speed world challenge (Koni Challenge). Live axle equipped Mustangs hand IRS equipped BMWs, Acuras, and Mazdas their ass since the S197 chassis was introduced.

Funny, Evos Rallye Proven right ? What car did Collin McRae uses to drive a Yugo or probably a Mustang GT? Give me a break

You need to open your eyes and stop taking the discussion as personal attacks.

 

[jred321]

What car did Collin McRae uses to drive a Yugo or probably a Mustang GT?

a subaru? that's what mcrae is most closely associated with in my mind at least

tommi makinen is evo to me.

 

[happy and angry]

It sounds almost like someone needs a lesson in potential front end grip between FWD and RWD platforms. Specifically, the differences under acceleration, under breaking, and under turning. Someone should also learn about the circle of grip and consider how it may apply to various platforms under various conditions.

It also sounds like someone should read about the 2009 or 2010 Mustang w/ trackpack and hear about the rave reviews it has been getting in the handling department.

Mostly it sounds like someone needs to learn when to shut up.

 

[Kymerik]

*countdown to thread lock*

This has gone so ridiculously off topic it's sick. (i know, i do it alot myself)

I am not surprised we lost out on the RS this time around, But i wouldn't be surprised if the next generation is made into a global platform that will be acceptable to both the European and American standards.

 

[Wagonbacker9]

yeah, guys, lets get some water on the flamewar... do we need a reminder of the topic?


my take is this: the mugen SI didn't do well, and the civic is a popular car with that crowd... theres just not a market for a car in that class (I do NOT mean to directly compare the 2 cars, just talking sport compacts here) here in the US. Honestly, I'm as disappointed as anyone, but I think its the right move.

 

[tunersteve]

I realize it's off topic, and Mikey is in here too. No need to worry...

 

[conewagon]

It sounds almost like someone needs a lesson in potential front end grip between FWD and RWD platforms. Specifically, the differences under acceleration, under breaking, and under turning. Someone should also learn about the circle of grip and consider how it may apply to various platforms under various conditions.

It also sounds like someone should read about the 2009 or 2010 Mustang w/ trackpack and hear about the rave reviews it has been getting in the handling department.

Mostly it sounds like someone needs to learn when to shut up.

I agree with most of this, but there is no difference between front and rear wheel drive under braking.

 

[TheMAN]

this thread is one big headache, so all I'm going to say is this

Had the americans pulled their heads out of their asses a long time ago and harmonized vehicle standards with the rest of the world (set mainly by Europeans), the Focus RS would probably be selling *officially* or grey imported

let me elaborate:
the big 3 always had great downward pressure on NHTSA to maintain standards very different from the rest of the world either because of their genuine perception that american (SAE) standards were better or because of xenophobia ("not invented here syndrome")... furthermore, the status quo effectively prevents the economic feasibility of private importation... the idea behind this is so that americans will be forced to buy only what (garbage) is available here... this was exacerbated in the late 80s when a thriving grey market caused mercedes-benz (of all companies) to lobby congress to legislate the requirement of custom bonds and vehicle crash worthiness tests and all the other red tape (before then, all someone had to do was bring a car here and install "DOT" equipment on a car to make it legal)

globalization trends aside, time has proven again and again that a freer automotive market produced a stronger one... the local market (not implying domestic manufacturers themselves, but official distributors also) either had to adapt or go away... survival of the fittest
I don't have data to back this up, but there are several places in the world where grey imports have thriving markets:
-new zealand... a long time ago, they had high tariffs on vehicle imports, to "protect" their domestic auto industry (nothing more than "transplants" of foreign automakers there) but when they eased the tariffs, people bought grey imports left and right and the much more expensive locally produced cars sat in the lots... this forced the official distributors to lower the prices on their cars until it was no longer profitable to build cars there... today all cars there are imports and new zealand did away with vehicle import tariffs not too long ago
-australia... you could only import a vehicle not officially sold there... there were some vehicles that were so highly imported in the grey market, it prompted the official importers to start selling official ones
-hong kong/macau... used to, you'd see grey imports all over the streets because they were cheaper and had better equipment/features/colors... the official importers had to get smart and so now they sell official imports with competitive prices and are similarly equipped... it is rarer to find grey imports now than before
-UK... the 2nd country in the world that is grey import friendly... although grey imports there are expensive and are relatively rare, people still buy them anyway because some top end models available elsewhere aren't available there or some cars simply don't exist there... enough of whatever was imported that the official distributors stopped fighting the owners and actually try to help them with parts and service instead
as you can see, it didn't really kill any economies or cause loss of market share, all that happened with the domestic industry was adapt and shift its focus... so while new zealand's car factories closed down, the cars produced there were intended only for the local market and the auto market was much more limited and held back prior to being opened up for grey imports... all the relaxations did was allow the after sales industry to grow and that's where a lot of the money is in car business

SO, had the americans "gave up" and harmonized the standards as late as a decade ago, it is hypothetically possible that the big 3 wouldn't be in as much trouble as they are now... why do I think that? as demonstrated above, grey imports may have eventually forced them to consider and sell official versions here at a cheaper price
also another MAJOR consequence of this I haven't mentioned are the reduced production costs of ALL vehicles (sold here or not)... this meant that now defunct in the US marks such as renault, fiat, and opel could easily reenter the market.. all they had to do was build the car and ship it here to sell... no longer do they have to produce AND certify cars with 2 or 3 different kinds of headlights, 2 different kinds of tail lights, 2 different kinds of bumpers, 2 different kinds of emissions equipment... the overhead is greatly reduced because not only do they no longer have to produce market specific bulls***, they don't have to inventory extra replacement parts or have separate accounting for this kind of s***... administrative and logistic costs, GREATLY REDUCED
and IF these nonexistent brands/cars were (so fearedly) reintroduced, the extra competition will force the complacent big 3 to rethink their strategies, reorganize their businesses, and introduce competitive products
the fact that the north american auto market is not as competitive as the rest of the world due to red tape, hurts the industry as a whole... a handicap for a long time already... self protectionist schemes no matter what it is, hurts business, plain and simple... the big 3 failed to see that by knocking down the barriers, it would help them in the long term... but unfortunately, their mentality has always been for the past 100 years short term thinking.... their status today is the result of that mentality


so bottom line is this... in today's globalized economy we better harmonize or adopt international standards quickly (that includes the *gasp* metric system) or american companies will always have difficulty doing international business and have to burden great costs doing so
-it is MUCH cheaper working on a single set of standards, automobile or not... -AMERICAN cars sold here would no longer need to be recertified and reequipped for any foreign market
-it increases local competition and everyone benefits from that
-it forces/allows the automakers more to design and sell "world cars" more so than the status quo of today as it is more cost effective

hopefully, the new NHTSA administrator will be more liberal (through the new white house) and will allow this to happen, but I'm not holding my breath as most americans have always have the idea that stuff not invented here isn't good

the great depression has shown that implementing self protectionist rules did nothing but harm everyone more... promoting better global competition (I did not mention "free trade" or want to talk about that) is one of the ways to help the global economy recover faster

 

[BlackCherry06]

Pardon my legislative ignorance, but are we the only country that has a standard for pedestrian safety on the front of vehicles sold here? (i.e. the hood has to be x-distance above the top of the engine). I think that's a retarded standard that they've forced on automakers and it's really caused some ****** up designs in the last few years. I remember in the 80's and early 90's how much I admired Honda's designs because the noses were so low to the ground...even on the Accord. Look how high they are now.....ruined.

This is what probably causes so many problems making EU cars acceptable for sale here and why it's so expensive to do so. They have to design a car with a mile-high hood to make sure it's sellable here before they can sell it globally.

 

[TheMAN]

actually, ECE regulations also have pedestrian safety specs in place also, so I do not think this is the primary cause of it

also, for all the uninformed out there (which is 99.9% of the board), do not ever think for one moment that an european version of a car also sold here is "not safe" compared to the US version... vehicle safety philosophies are very different on both sides of the pond... it is irrational to say one is better than the other one... however, it is responsible to say that neither are less safe than the other... european and japanese bumper laws for example do not require extensive rebars compared to north american ones, having a rebar does NOT make the car more crash worthy (or "safer") in a 30mph crash... all the rebar does is keep the bumper from deforming excessively in a 5mph parking lot kiss... that is a common misconception there! non-US headlights (european standard, adopted all over the world) out perform "DOT" ones in poor weather and does not have as much glare or "dazzle" to on coming drivers... they however, do not light up overhead road signs as well due to this, but studies have shown that even with the reduced upward lighting, it has never posed any safety threat (australia, japan, and the UK used to use "reversed" SAE headlights which were much like american headlights and they switched over to ECE ones many years ago, that is how such a study was able to be done)

like I said... neither set of standards are better than the other, they both have their pros and cons... BUT, considering that everyone else in the world uses ECE standards (and canada now even allows ECE lighting equipment), it's more logical for ONE country (that's the US... canada always follows the US on car related s***) to adopt or harmonize to those standards than to force everyone to use our standards

the old saying goes... if you can't beat em, join em!

 

[tunersteve]

actually, ECE regulations also have pedestrian safety specs in place also, so I do not think this is the primary cause of it

also, for all the uninformed out there (which is 99.9% of the board), do not ever think for one moment that an european version of a car also sold here is "not safe" compared to the US version... vehicle safety philosophies are very different on both sides of the pond... it is irrational to say one is better than the other one... however, it is responsible to say that neither are less safe than the other... european and japanese bumper laws for example do not require extensive rebars compared to north american ones, having a rebar does NOT make the car more crash worthy (or "safer") in a 30mph crash... all the rebar does is keep the bumper from deforming excessively in a 5mph parking lot kiss... that is a common misconception there! non-US headlights (european standard, adopted all over the world) out perform "DOT" ones in poor weather and does not have as much glare or "dazzle" to on coming drivers... they however, do not light up overhead road signs as well due to this, but studies have shown that even with the reduced upward lighting, it has never posed any safety threat (australia, japan, and the UK used to use "reversed" SAE headlights which were much like american headlights and they switched over to ECE ones many years ago, that is how such a study was able to be done)

like I said... neither set of standards are better than the other, they both have their pros and cons... BUT, considering that everyone else in the world uses ECE standards (and canada now even allows ECE lighting equipment), it's more logical for ONE country (that's the US... canada always follows the US on car related s***) to adopt or harmonize to those standards than to force everyone to use our standards

the old saying goes... if you can't beat em, join em!

Well said in both posts.

I'm all for one global standard, since in the end, it benefits the consumer and the business alike.

 

[happy and angry]

Ahhh... yes there is, young grasshopper!

I agree with most of this, but there is no difference between front and rear wheel drive under braking.

It's not a significant one, but it's there, and it's mostly based around weight balance. The engine configurations, transmission orientations/designs and the presence/absence of a rear differential makes significant weight balance differences between the two platforms.

The differences are not so large under straight line braking, but when we start looking at trail braking characteristics during various cornering situations, each platform has a different "tendency" under braking. This tendency can be greater or lesser depending on overall chasis performance, suspension setup, etc etc etc, but because of the (general) weight balance differences between platforms you can see different tendencies under braking.

 

[happy and angry]

also, for all the uninformed out there (which is 99.9% of the board), do not ever think for one moment that an european version of a car also sold here is "not safe" compared to the US version...

I'm not sure why you are getting the idea that identifying a legislated difference in specific standards means thinking one vehicle (or set of standards) is more or less safe than another.

I also take issue, to some extent, with the idea that the Big 3 have avoided globalization because it benefits them, rather than because of the vastly different market pressures between North America and Europe. Go back 10 years when gas prices were lower and everyone was wanting a 12 mpg SUV and the idea of bringing a small car over the pond would seem absolutely crazy, but now that the U.S. is starting to feel some of the same energy pressures Europe has and priorities are shifting, markets are shifting as a result. It's very easy to look back and using hindsight judge the choices made by the big 3 over the last 20 years, but you have to remember that as a result of avoiding globalizing their offerings, they were able to make record profits in Europe with their good small cars and record profits in the U.S. with their bigger vehicles. They did a pisspoor job of predicting a shift in priorities, followed by a pisspoor job of reacting to various market changes (except for Ford), but 10 years ago talking about globalizing product offerings would have been downright fiscally irresponsible for those companies to do.