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What happens at WOT?
- Thread starter Rac3rX
- Start date
Im reading that we go into closed loop @ WOT, and the engine runs rich.
Im not sure wich is right, but it apears the End result is the motor running rich at WOT, correct?
Here is the thread Im reading
http://www.msprotege.com/vbb225/showthread.php?t=2838
If Rich at WOT its certain that any more fuel wouldnt help, what about UP-UNTILL WOT, would we benifit from any aditional fuel if there is a set up with header/intake/exhaust?
Aslo, does the ECU disreguard signals from the ECU and Fuel Pressure regulator at WOT and just run a Pre-programmed map no matter what the altitude or situation?
Im not sure wich is right, but it apears the End result is the motor running rich at WOT, correct?
Here is the thread Im reading
http://www.msprotege.com/vbb225/showthread.php?t=2838
If Rich at WOT its certain that any more fuel wouldnt help, what about UP-UNTILL WOT, would we benifit from any aditional fuel if there is a set up with header/intake/exhaust?
Aslo, does the ECU disreguard signals from the ECU and Fuel Pressure regulator at WOT and just run a Pre-programmed map no matter what the altitude or situation?
cheapmiata1600
Member
- :
- 03 P5
There's no signal from the FPR at all. It's a purely mechanical device and only runs on manifold vacum.
Our cars tend to run quite rich all the time, I'd say if anything you'd probably want to get rid of a little fuel and add some timing. I'd bet the only sensor that does anything at WOT is the intake air temp sensor. My car feels like it pulls a LOT of timing when it's above 75 degress or so outside.
Our cars tend to run quite rich all the time, I'd say if anything you'd probably want to get rid of a little fuel and add some timing. I'd bet the only sensor that does anything at WOT is the intake air temp sensor. My car feels like it pulls a LOT of timing when it's above 75 degress or so outside.
Thanks for the info.
Seems our car runs too rich at all times for what I was thinking......
Pulling the FPR vacume line to trick the system into thinking its 14.7psi (Atmospheric pressure) instead of arround 14.3psi.
Its too bad, This fricken ECU is a tough nut to crack!! I need stand alone management!!!
It would be interesting to have a A/F Guage, pull it out and see what it does to the A/F readings, for curiosity.
Seems our car runs too rich at all times for what I was thinking......
Pulling the FPR vacume line to trick the system into thinking its 14.7psi (Atmospheric pressure) instead of arround 14.3psi.
Its too bad, This fricken ECU is a tough nut to crack!! I need stand alone management!!!
It would be interesting to have a A/F Guage, pull it out and see what it does to the A/F readings, for curiosity.
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cheapmiata1600
Member
- :
- 03 P5
Pulling the line off the FPR would only make things worse. You have the most fuel pressure at 0 vacume.
There isn't really a good way to "trick" our ECU into doing anything. The fuel and ignition maps are super conservative. You really need a standalone if you want to change anything.
There isn't really a good way to "trick" our ECU into doing anything. The fuel and ignition maps are super conservative. You really need a standalone if you want to change anything.
cheapmiata1600 said:Pulling the line off the FPR would only make things worse. You have the most fuel pressure at 0 vacume.
There isn't really a good way to "trick" our ECU into doing anything. The fuel and ignition maps are super conservative. You really need a standalone if you want to change anything.
Yeah thats what Im figuring, this ECU is a b****!!!
I need a Stand alone unit when I can find some $$$$$ for it.
Be cool to see what it does to the A/F ratios non the less.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
that info from your thread is dated, and incorrect...at least some of it...
Our Ford EECV ECU runs a low load closed loop cycle at lower rpm...that is self explanatory....this is to keep emissions and fuel consumption low as long as possible, but for reasons beyond the scope of this post;...once load increases the engine requires a richer mixture than stoichiometric...
closed loop refers to the way the computer is "reading" things...its a circuit in which information comes from the exhaust as well as some other sensors to incorporate fuel...it is "learning" after every few cycles, and changing accoringly...open loop refers to a system in which the ecu relies soley on predetermined maps...the maps have certain requirements, and the ecu uses a few sensors to determine which map fits the engine's condition (load rpm, etc...)
and WOT is NOT the cutoff...it is totally controlled by load and rpm...not throttle position...Our ecu will click into open loop at different times depending on what is going on... in which exhuast readings are halted for fuel corrections and mostly runs soley on the MAF for fuel/spark map determination (this is in stock form, not at all what aftermarket ECUs generally do)....but it happens around nearly 4000rpm at WOT, but can stay in closed loop longer when light on the throttle...
Most aftermarket computers with "self learning" can utilize a more complex "high load" closed loop...which incorporates a wide band O2 sensor...I never cared for these high load features for reliability reasons (adjustments are made to the cylce after a couple "foul" cycles occur...I hate that)...but our stock computer does not do this...it switches to open loop in these situations...
Open loop is where our terd computers really start to dump fuel...all the way to low 10s A/F wise...that is ridiculous for our engines...My guess is that it is to allow an FS to run almost always on bad U.S. gasoline...not a lot of power/detonation/heat can be made relatively when things are that rich...
Our Ford EECV ECU runs a low load closed loop cycle at lower rpm...that is self explanatory....this is to keep emissions and fuel consumption low as long as possible, but for reasons beyond the scope of this post;...once load increases the engine requires a richer mixture than stoichiometric...
closed loop refers to the way the computer is "reading" things...its a circuit in which information comes from the exhaust as well as some other sensors to incorporate fuel...it is "learning" after every few cycles, and changing accoringly...open loop refers to a system in which the ecu relies soley on predetermined maps...the maps have certain requirements, and the ecu uses a few sensors to determine which map fits the engine's condition (load rpm, etc...)
and WOT is NOT the cutoff...it is totally controlled by load and rpm...not throttle position...Our ecu will click into open loop at different times depending on what is going on... in which exhuast readings are halted for fuel corrections and mostly runs soley on the MAF for fuel/spark map determination (this is in stock form, not at all what aftermarket ECUs generally do)....but it happens around nearly 4000rpm at WOT, but can stay in closed loop longer when light on the throttle...
Most aftermarket computers with "self learning" can utilize a more complex "high load" closed loop...which incorporates a wide band O2 sensor...I never cared for these high load features for reliability reasons (adjustments are made to the cylce after a couple "foul" cycles occur...I hate that)...but our stock computer does not do this...it switches to open loop in these situations...
Open loop is where our terd computers really start to dump fuel...all the way to low 10s A/F wise...that is ridiculous for our engines...My guess is that it is to allow an FS to run almost always on bad U.S. gasoline...not a lot of power/detonation/heat can be made relatively when things are that rich...
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Installshield 2 said:that info from your thread is dated, and incorrect...at least some of it...
Our Ford EECV ECU runs a low load closed loop cycle at lower rpm...that is self explanatory....this is to keep emissions and fuel consumption low as long as possible, but for reasons beyond the scope of this post;...once load increases the engine requires a richer mixture than stoichiometric...
closed loop refers to the way the computer is "reading" things...its a circuit in which information comes from the exhaust as well as some other sensors to incorporate fuel...it is "learning" after every few cycles, and changing accoringly...open loop refers to a system in which the ecu relies soley on predetermined maps...the maps have certain requirements, and the ecu uses a few sensors to determine which map fits the engine's condition (load rpm, etc...)
and WOT is NOT the cutoff...it is totally controlled by load and rpm...not throttle position...Our ecu will click into open loop at different times depending on what is going on... in which exhuast readings are halted for fuel corrections and mostly runs soley on the MAF for fuel/spark map determination (this is in stock form, not at all what aftermarket ECUs generally do)....but it happens around nearly 4000rpm at WOT, but can stay in closed loop longer when light on the throttle...
Most aftermarket computers with "self learning" can utilize a more complex "high load" closed loop...which incorporates a wide band O2 sensor...I never cared for these high load features for reliability reasons (adjustments are made to the cylce after a couple "foul" cycles occur...I hate that)...but our stock computer does not do this...it switches to open loop in these situations...
Open loop is where our terd computers really start to dump fuel...all the way to low 10s A/F wise...that is ridiculous for our engines...My guess is that it is to allow an FS to run almost always on bad U.S. gasoline...not a lot of power/detonation/heat can be made relatively when things are that rich...
DUDE!!! Great info, Thanks!!!!
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
np man...
also hopefully Andrew sees this...He came up with some FPR stuff to help lean out the mixture a little from what I remember...maybe it was the other way around...and maybe it only works on his actual Mazda (JDM based...different than North American ECUs)...In either case he did something that worked from what I remember...It might be relevant...
also hopefully Andrew sees this...He came up with some FPR stuff to help lean out the mixture a little from what I remember...maybe it was the other way around...and maybe it only works on his actual Mazda (JDM based...different than North American ECUs)...In either case he did something that worked from what I remember...It might be relevant...
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Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
the O2 sensor can be "clamped"...but as far as I know, this is only a partial throttle fix..a lot of mods will make our controllers actually run too lean at partial throttle positions...
All I know is that this computer is very hard to manipulate...Which is one reason on why so few piggybacks actually do anything...
obviously the most logical computer solution is to replace it...or at least replace its control of the fuel and spark...that is the only working solution available to us so far, except for the MPi piggyback...which apperantly works ok...
but in a nutshell...no...when you add mods that increase air flow...the computer will always see that in open loop...and always dump more to keep the a/f ratio's at what the map recommends...which sucks...
I have said it before...and it fits again...the North American computers for the third generation proteges are the most restrictive single part of the entire car...and it is the main reason they get such a poor reputation for NA performance...there are other things obviously...but you get rid of the stock ECU, and you can start contending with regular sport compacts very quickly...
All I know is that this computer is very hard to manipulate...Which is one reason on why so few piggybacks actually do anything...
obviously the most logical computer solution is to replace it...or at least replace its control of the fuel and spark...that is the only working solution available to us so far, except for the MPi piggyback...which apperantly works ok...
but in a nutshell...no...when you add mods that increase air flow...the computer will always see that in open loop...and always dump more to keep the a/f ratio's at what the map recommends...which sucks...
I have said it before...and it fits again...the North American computers for the third generation proteges are the most restrictive single part of the entire car...and it is the main reason they get such a poor reputation for NA performance...there are other things obviously...but you get rid of the stock ECU, and you can start contending with regular sport compacts very quickly...
No arguement here. I'd love to mess with the ignition curve. If we had a knock sensor it might notice that we NEVER have detonation even with crappy gas.
The worst part about replacing the EMS is that you NEED a laptop and a wideband O2. Either that or a really good map from someone that professionally tunes your car.
I'd love to get an EMS, but I need to get a coating on my headers that doesn't erode in the winter salt first, and then come up with the money.
The worst part about replacing the EMS is that you NEED a laptop and a wideband O2. Either that or a really good map from someone that professionally tunes your car.
I'd love to get an EMS, but I need to get a coating on my headers that doesn't erode in the winter salt first, and then come up with the money.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
my problem was not only very rich in open loop, but very lean while in closed loop. the only thing i could fix was the lean part. i removed the vacuum line from the stock fpr. very complicated mod. essentially i figured it was the best thing to do. it hopefully added more fuel at partial throttle, but at wot was the same as with the vacuum line connected (since there is no vacuum). eventually i added an aftermarket fpr to the mix after the stock fpr and then connected both back to the vacuum lines (which is how it still is).
there's nothing you can do about making it any leaner in open loop. my guess is the stock ecu is thinking "oh i'm getting this reading from the maf, i need to put in x amount of fuel". it then trusts it more than the rpm and adds too much fuel....especially when your engine is breathing well (intake, cams etc)
there's nothing you can do about making it any leaner in open loop. my guess is the stock ecu is thinking "oh i'm getting this reading from the maf, i need to put in x amount of fuel". it then trusts it more than the rpm and adds too much fuel....especially when your engine is breathing well (intake, cams etc)
iluvmacs said:No arguement here. I'd love to mess with the ignition curve. If we had a knock sensor it might notice that we NEVER have detonation even with crappy gas.
The worst part about replacing the EMS is that you NEED a laptop and a wideband O2. Either that or a really good map from someone that professionally tunes your car.
I'd love to get an EMS, but I need to get a coating on my headers that doesn't erode in the winter salt first, and then come up with the money.
Thermo Tec makes a protective spary for your headers (Cheeper then ceramic coating, not as good, but if you make a application before winter you should be alright (I live in Montreal, we got crazy winters)
twilightprotege said:my problem was not only very rich in open loop, but very lean while in closed loop. the only thing i could fix was the lean part. i removed the vacuum line from the stock fpr. very complicated mod. essentially i figured it was the best thing to do. it hopefully added more fuel at partial throttle, but at wot was the same as with the vacuum line connected (since there is no vacuum). eventually i added an aftermarket fpr to the mix after the stock fpr and then connected both back to the vacuum lines (which is how it still is).
there's nothing you can do about making it any leaner in open loop. my guess is the stock ecu is thinking "oh i'm getting this reading from the maf, i need to put in x amount of fuel". it then trusts it more than the rpm and adds too much fuel....especially when your engine is breathing well (intake, cams etc)
Ha thats funny, thats EXACTLY what I was thinking of doing (Check post 6), I was trying to see if it helps before WOT, did it help at all?
Its too much of a small impact to feel in the Butt Dyno, but Maybe you have a A/F guage that would show her a little less lean while in closed loop.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
it helped a little to add more fuel before WOT. not much, but it was the only way to help the uber lean mix i was running with the stock ecu
I really think I may buy a microtech or something similar before I do the turbo thing. I'd only be turboing to have a project and learn some more so I might as well do the ECU first. I'm happy with my car's performance as is, but it runs so painfully rich all the time (at least for me.. I must have it running in open loop far too often). I need to finally dyno my car before I do any ECU stuff though.
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