Turbo: nobody home?

[jthj]

I have been thinking about this and I think Im agreeing with Unobs theory about it being related to TC.

We know that the system looks at the torque needed when steering to determine the level of traction on the surface for the AWD engagement. Its also feasible they could be feeding this into the TC as well. And as its not fully defeatable its still a factor when you push that button on the dash (Dave Coleman even said they are thinking about renaming it because turning it off isnt what it does).

Now, to the questions about why isnt this being mentioned in any of the launch reviews? One theory I have is that the launch reviews were all provided with winter rubber as they were in Canada in the middle of winter. If we consider the TC to be looking at the torque needed on steering to determine the available grip its possible the winter tires required more torque and thus it didnt determine it was needed to pull torque (or at least not as much). I think Savageese got a review car with standard tires but Id have to go back to the video and see if there are any shots where I can see what they are.

Now as to why the CX-9 owners arent experiencing it? It may just be that the CX-9 is a much heavier vehicle and it has much wider tires ergo again they feel they dont need to pull the torque as its just going to have more mechanical grip in otherwise equal conditions.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.

 

[CatsPaw]

It hasn't been above freezing here in over a week. Not to mention, it has only been above freezing a handful of days since we bought our's at the end of December. I have never had this issue, so it is not widespread.

It does need to be somewhat below merely freezing to start showing up. I have found that around 10-15 degrees F is when the engine starts to weaken. Once you get into the 0 to -10 range is when it gets really dead. It has been in the range of 0 to -20 F here at night pretty much non-stop for the last 3 months now so this is why I'm experiencing it so much. If your temps are just hanging out in the 20's, for example, then your car will probably behave normally.

It's not an "all or nothing" behavior. There are several levels of power loss I have experienced. When it's -10F or lower it's just not acceptable. I wish I could dyno the car in that state because I'm confident then engine is producing less than 100 HP in that situation. I've owned many cars and driven them though cold winters and never had troubles like the ones this car has given me.

 

[CatsPaw]

To add a second data point, at this point I'm very confident that this behavior is ECU de-tuning (retarding ignition timing) based on the temperature of the engine oil. It is likely a necessary measure to protect the engine because of the 0-20 weight oil used to improve fuel economy. This will only occur during very cold temperatures, and worsens the colder it gets.

If you run the car long enough and allow the engine oil (not the thermostat temperature, which is what your temp gauge in vehicle is displaying) to fully temperature stabilize, then the ECU will adjust the timing back to normal and the engine will make normal power.

I have found that in my case it takes 25-35 minutes of driving for this to happen. So Mazda's press events won't exhibit behavior like this because the cars are being driven steadily, and are likely being left running/idling during the event to keep them warm.

 

[Unobtanium]

Well...there we have it. This is a CX5 issue, not a "turbo not home" issue. Apparently it applies to CatsPaw's naturally aspirated CX5, as well. SO stop dogging on muh tubo!!!!
(How's that crow taste, Shadonoz?)


More data:

-Mazda has referred me to the dealer, the dealer is worthless for things like this.
-I could provoke the TSC light in my yard by flooring it on my wet lawn (non-marriage life FTW!)
-I cannot imagine it being oil temp as these engines do not have air-oil interface cooking, and it does it even after being driven for 45+ minutes.
-I found some flat, level ground (as best I could), and punched it. My vehicle has 91 octane in it, and it is my opinion that (given most companies who test use a 1' roll-out, lopping 0.3 seconds off the official 0-60 times...) my CX5 GT-R performs EXACTLY per par.

By my watch this is around 6.6-6.8, which, considering the lack of a 1' roll-out, puts it dead on par with the 6.4 time one publication got. This also lends to the theory that the 91 octane isn't holding you back too much over 93 octane.

Also, please note instant-read-out fuel consumption compared to when it was 13*F outside...

This is DEFINITELY "tune".

 

[jthj]

In my mind intentional to protect something is also plausible. Could be engine due to oil temps, transmissions, AWD hardware.... The last two have lifetime fluids they have to ensure last as part of their design.

 

[Unobtanium]

In my mind intentional to protect something is also plausible. Could be engine due to oil temps, transmissions, AWD hardware.... The last two have lifetime fluids they have to ensure last as part of their design.

I had driven the vehicle for 45 minutes prior...I find it dubious, at best, to presume that something strapped to the block (transmission) or the engine (coolant at around 190*F) somehow was still "cold".

 

[jthj]

That unit for the AWD in the back (rear diff with the clutches) is probably still pretty damn cold.

 

[jthj]

I mean I still think its more likely traction related somehow but I think the other path is also plausible at least.

We need to get Dave Coleman to weigh in on this. Im sure hed give a straight answer.

 

[Unobtanium]

I mean I still think it*s more likely traction related somehow but I think the other path is also plausible at least.

We need to get Dave Coleman to weigh in on this. I*m sure he*d give a straight answer.

Do we have a way to reach him? I think this is an issue that is worthy of his time. It is reproducible, it is documented, and it affects more than 1 person.

 

[Unobtanium]

That unit for the AWD in the back (rear diff with the clutches) is probably still pretty damn cold.

okay, cool, I get that...but EVERY vehicle has a diff in the back that is RWD, and literally none of them do this that I have owned. They all somehow lasted 100K+ miles.

 

[naszero]

Maybe it has something to do with G-Vectoring Plus cutting power? I thought I read somewhere that G-Vectoring Plus is exclusive to the 2019 CX-5 at the moment, maybe that's why we haven't seen reports from other turbos?

 

[jthj]

okay, cool, I get that...but EVERY vehicle has a diff in the back that is RWD, and literally none of them do this that I have owned. They all somehow lasted 100K+ miles.

The clutches that engage/adjust the AWD split are back there. So its not the same as just a diff.

Edit: but still dont think thats it really.....

 

[Unobtanium]

The clutches that engage/adjust the AWD split are back there. So it*s not the same as just a diff.

Edit: but still don*t think that*s it really.....

I had clutches (Posi-Trak), worm-gears (Torsen), and Viscous rear diffs in the various sports cars I've owned.

This will require expert opinion/knowledge on, I'm afraid, as at this point I know what: Cold temps/less power, and quantified it: less fuel consumption under WOT, longer acceleration times. However, I do not know the method to the madness. We need someone with a direct line to the people who programmed this ECM.

 

[jthj]

I had clutches (Posi-Trak), worm-gears (Torsen), and Viscous rear diffs in the various sports cars I've owned.

This will require expert opinion/knowledge on, I'm afraid, as at this point I know what: Cold temps/less power, and quantified it: less fuel consumption under WOT, longer acceleration times. However, I do not know the method to the madness. We need someone with a direct line to the people who programmed this ECM.

I would agree. You will probably get nowhere with the dealer on this. Thats why I was thinking get this question to Dave Coleman somehow.

 

[Unobtanium]

I would agree. You will probably get nowhere with the dealer on this. That*s why I was thinking get this question to Dave Coleman somehow.

First...who is Dave Coleman? I gather he is an engineer?
Second...why would he care? Is he active in the enthusiast community?
Third...is he on this forum? Can we tag him? Does Antoine have his cell #? How's this work?

Back when I had a problem with my Z06, I'd just call the head of Bowling Green and it was handled with Benny Hill or someone. But this? It's from Japan. I have no clue.

 

[jthj]

Hes the engineer from their NA unit that is in most of the YouTube videos explaining how their AWD and other systems work. Ive seen a few where he really gets into the weeds so Im pretty sure hes not a marketing wonk.

Edit: we would probably need to get the attention of a YouTube influencer, savageess noticed, and get them to care enough to reach out to Mazda. Likely it would be Dave they put them into contact with.

 

[jthj]

Back when I had a problem with my Z06, I'd just call the head of Bowling Green and it was handled with Benny Hill or someone. But this? It's from Japan. I have no clue.

Funny thing you mention that. When I had the ST one thing I liked was you could call up Ford Racing and talk to an engineer.

 

[Unobtanium]

Funny thing you mention that. When I had the ST one thing I liked was you could call up Ford Racing and talk to an engineer.

It's the one advantage to buying "American".

 

[Unobtanium]

ETA: I have reached out to Dave Coleman. We will now wait and see if he wishes to speak with me, or tells me to go pound sand.

 

[sm1ke]

It's the one advantage to buying "American".

To be fair, you guys are comparing your enthusiast/sports cars to a mass-marketed SUV. Hardly a fair comparison, so the advantage doesn't really hold water.

I doubt anyone here has actually tried to reach Dave Coleman either. If I were invested in sussing this issue out, I'd contact MNAO, get in touch with their Marketing dept and see if they could put me in touch with the proper contact in the Engineering dept. Helpful to have the videos to show the issue at hand.

Failing that, I'd attempt to get in touch with some auto publications who have worked with Dave in the past. For example, Jalopnik author Patrick George had Dave Coleman do a "live" Q&A. You could try reaching out to Patrick with the video footage showing the issue, and he may be able to contact Dave to explain the issue. I might also contact YouTube reviewers who have had Dave as a guest on some of their videos.

This is all just speculation, but it's a little better than twiddling my thumbs and waiting for someone at the dealership/corporate to call me back.


*EDIT: Nevermind, just saw your post Uno. Hope he responds with some good/useful info.