the great debate.

[pat_neumerz]

Alright so first off. I have an mp3. I believe ((PLEASE) (correct me if im wrong)) i have the same struts and springs as a msp so i thought it would be appropriate to post here. Im in a great debate. My struts (160k) are shot getting a pretty intense creak on, and its time for a replacement. I have NO interest in ever selling my car, its worth to me is greater than its actual monetary worth so despite the mileage i dont want a cheap short lasting option. That being said i dont have all the money to spend im hoping to stay under 600. Im wonder what my best bet is. I would like to be able to adjust ride height therefore i was thinking maybe a set of used illuminas but i just dont know what they are vs. other coilovers/ cost/ difficulty of install. Im in a debate over going new stock stuff and losing my hope for adjustability for a trustworthy option, or used coilovers basically. Im thinking like maybe 500 for a decent set of illuminas? I really want to have long lasting nice suspension, so i would like to know what lifespan of this stuff is, and if there are concerns buying used. So many options, im simply overwhelmed. Any input is greatly appreciated!(bowdown)

 

[haveahotcarl]

I've said it before and I say it again, Tokico HPK kit. Sure you don't get adjustability of ride height, but you don't get that with illuminas either (they are adjustable damping). Used anything is always a gamble, you never know EXACTLY how the previous owner used (and abused) them. The HPK kit replaces all 4 shocks and springs that are matched to perform perfectly for just about $600 shipped from CS. You do get a drop of about 1" over stock and just right to get rid of the wheel gap. Tokico also has a lifetime warranty on their products so they will be with you as long as you have your car.

See more on my praise of this setup here:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123789256-Pretty-sure-front-struts-are-going

 

[Valk]

a set of new hp blues and used springs would be my bet. i got my eibach sportlines for $150. some people sell tiens and similar for the same or similar price but there are many more options for springs.
the racing beat springs are not bad for a dd. little too much nosedive for my liking.
you haven't said anything about tracking the car so i wouldn't suggest coilovers at all. they are pretty unfriendly if your just driving around and rely on the car any.

 

[pat_neumerz]

So haveahotcari says http://www.corksport.com/tokico-hpk-suspension-kit-for-protege.html , and valk says those w/o spring and order used springs. Im assuming using different springs would impact performance? And are the hpks ready to roll install. I read some other threads and they seem to be just making sure though, my head cant take any more engineering :/ Where is a good place to buy hpk struts alone? And whats the deal with springs, what to look out for when shopping for used etc? Thankss
Ps. just noobin

 

[haveahotcarl]

So haveahotcari says http://www.corksport.com/tokico-hpk-suspension-kit-for-protege.html , and valk says those w/o spring and order used springs. Im assuming using different springs would impact performance? And are the hpks ready to roll install. I read some other threads and they seem to be just making sure though, my head cant take any more engineering :/ Where is a good place to buy hpk struts alone? And whats the deal with springs, what to look out for when shopping for used etc? Thankss
Ps. just noobin

The HPK kit is basically ready to install, all you need is a spring compressor to get the upper mount/perch off the stock shocks and onto the new HPK shocks. Again, with anything used you risk not knowing exactly how they were used. **Warning, technical content** Engineering wise, springs do wear out through fatigue and eventually need to be replaced. You can go with a set of springs from a different manufacturer, like say a set of coil-over sleeves, but this opens up a whole new can of worms. Shocks are designed to work in a certain range and with a certain spring rate. If you use them with a spring they were not designed for, say one that lowers the car causing the shocks to operate in a normally slightly compressed state, you now have changed the way the shocks are working. The damping capabilities of the shock can no longer properly control the spring and your ride quality suffers and useful life of the shock is reduced. This is one reason why you might want adjustable shocks; to correct the damping of the over-compressed shock. Ergo, this is why buying a matched kit yields the best results. Yes, you could get a properly speced progressive rate spring that could work with the over-compressed shock, but why waste your time?

Bottom line, mixing and matching your shocks and springs does work and can be done correctly, but unless you have lots of experience with suspension components, it isn't worth the hassle. Used springs are only closer to failure than new ones and will just have to be replaced again in the future costing you more money.

 

[Valk]

Ah. this sounds like its getting overly complicated. no argument of the facts, but you don't really have to worry about that kinda stuff on a car your just putting around in. there are a LOT of people running super stiff aggressive lowering springs on their stock es and p5 struts.

you can get the hpk or struts alone from protephile and he has great prices and service. honestly, it comes down to how you drive the car and what your looking for from the ride.
hpk is great as a drop in solution. if you ever wanna lower your car, or give it a more planted ride, upgrading the springs to something like tien or eibach is safe on the hpblues and the reduction in ride height isn't that severe. tiens are 1.8" reduction at their best. the racing beat springs included in your hpk are .75" drop already so it wont blow them a whole lot faster.
stay away from coilsleeves though. their springrates are just obscenely too aggressive for normal struts. you would need adjustable tokikos or kyb's, and at that price point, your only a couple hundred away from a set of ksports or bcracing coilovers.

i was planning to get a set of Illumina's but might just get blues. no complaints with how the car rolls.

 

[pat_neumerz]

I like simplicity valk. Thankyou.

 

[justanothermp5]

lol the spring rates on sleeves arent too aggressive for the HP's at all, depends on what sleeves you get,
i have ground control sleeves on HP's and i like them, alot
there kinda bumpy (compared to springs), but im used to it now, doesnt really bother me at all
plus i change rims pretty often, so i like the height adjustability, they dont handle all that bad either

if you want to get rid of the wheel gap, AND get good handling, i would do hp's and eibach pro kit springs, decent drop, great springs and pretty awesome handling

 

[jdwk]

As hotcarl recommended, I bought the HPK and installed them a couple weeks ago. This is definitely the simple economical way to go. The downside is it reuses the stock hardware, so you'll be dismantling and reassembling the strut/spring setup. Not a huge deal, but with the crappy autozone springs compressors, it can get frustrating at times, the worst aspect being holding the washer steady while torquing down the top strut nut on the rears. Getting the springs to stay perfectly centered on the cap as you decompress them was also a pain for me. If you compress and uncompress both compressors equally, as in a few turns on each one back and forth, the process goes a lot more smoothly.

My car measures about a 1.5" drop all the way around. I measured as precisely as I could with a tape measurer just before, just after, and then about a week after the install. I certainly wouldn't want to go any lower than it is now. It looks good now, any lower and it would start to look slammed which is definitely not my taste.

I do notice a little bit of negative camber now on the fronts compared to stock, but would have to take it in for an alignment check to know exactly. The strut cap on the fronts can be adjusted to 4 positions to change camber and caster slightly, and I may rotate them around to counter the camber if I notce the tires wearing unevenly. A little negative camber isn't a bad thing though.

I do now have a lot more suspension type noises now. Both front and rear bushings were replaced and lubed very well in the past year or so, but I guess it's possible for them to be worn out again already. I believe lowering the car is putting unnecessary stress on the sway bars with the stock end links and I ordered AWR adjustables. This adds significant cost to the swap, as they are $190 for the full set, so I am hoping they help with the noises.

I also have two new wheel bearings coming as there is a definite groan with wheel rotation that turns to a whine at higher speeds before becoming inaudible around 40mph, but I don't think this has a whole lot to do with the HPK other than the camber putting a little bit different angle of stress on the wheel and hub itself. I was in a small fender bender on that side a few years ago that probably didn't help matters.

 

[squire0311]

for ride height control go with Tokico struts and Ground Control Coilovers Sleeves w/Eibach Springs. thats what i have and love em.

 

[Valk]

its funny you should mention cost of endlinks cause that's one of the reasons i didn't rush to lower my p5 when i had it. i was fortunate when i got my sportlines that i already made adjustable rears, and just needed to make fronts so the drop wasn't too bad all at once. of course, the alignment adds to it too.

not sure what your reusing from factory by replacing all 4 struts/springs. just the mounting bolts to the car basicly? im rather surprised you could get the stock endlinks to work at all. i had to cut the bolts off everysingle one..

 

[justanothermp5]

lol its funny that you ordered adjustable AWR endlinks to fix the noise,
AWR makes some of the noisiest endlinks for the protege. I hated mine with a passion

 

[jdwk]

its funny you should mention cost of endlinks cause that's one of the reasons i didn't rush to lower my p5 when i had it. i was fortunate when i got my sportlines that i already made adjustable rears, and just needed to make fronts so the drop wasn't too bad all at once. of course, the alignment adds to it too.

not sure what your reusing from factory by replacing all 4 struts/springs. just the mounting bolts to the car basicly? im rather surprised you could get the stock endlinks to work at all. i had to cut the bolts off everysingle one..

My car has never seen snow, only 70k miles of sunshine, so the bolts are generally pretty easy to remove. When I lived in Ohio, I had a hell of a time getting the endlinks off of my MX6, so I know what you mean.
The parts that are reused are the rubber seats, both top and bottom, the metal cap that sits on top of the spring and bolts to the car, the plastic gaskets that sit on top of the cap, the bump stops, and the metal washers that you'll need to tighten the rears. It's pretty obvious when you take the old ones apart.

lol its funny that you ordered adjustable AWR endlinks to fix the noise,
AWR makes some of the noisiest endlinks for the protege. I hated mine with a passion

Fan-fing-tastic. Hotcarl has them on the front and didn't mention them creating any noises. What are my other options?

 

[Valk]

As if you could hear the front ones wih all the other noisy s*** these cars do lol.
The custom route is there. Pretty cheap from mcmaster. Just buy some balljoint rod ends and cut rod to length.
Some have used the oil impregnated ones, i just use the carbon reinorced ptfe ones that dont need lube.
Little bit of clunk but no worse than any other poly suspension bit.

 

[jdwk]

I was out of town for the past week and the car was amazingly quiet today, except for the faint pulse during low speeds I am hearing from what I presume is a bad wheel bearing.
End links aren't here yet, but now I am debating whether to just send them back. I'll end up eating $50 in restocking fee so I am pretty pissed about that.

"Just buy some balljoint rod ends and cut rod to length?" Where do I buy these? The endlinks actually need to be longer, not shorter. I always assumed adjustables were threaded so you could tighten or loosen the bolt to the desired length.

I found these through some forum posts.
http://racinglineperformance.com/shop/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=16

They appear much higher quality than the AWR links.

 

[jdwk]

Just found this thread finally. Searching forums is such a pain in the ass.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123747369-How-to-make-Custom-Sway-Bar-End-links&highlight=mcmaster

 

[jdwk]

So I got Ken to cancel my AWR endlinks order. But racingline's site says they are out of stock. They only have an e-mail contact form, which is always a black hole with these sites. Anyone have a number for them (although it'll be intl from the states I guess)? I used the form on Monday and haven't heard a response.
I really don't want to put homemade parts on my car, but it looks like the best option at this point. Hell of a lot cheaper at least.

 

[Valk]

Endlinks are pretty simple. And all the awr is, is a machine rod which isnt really different than threaded rod. They use very similar balljoints to what mcmaster sells and you adjust them the same way.
They make these balljoints or everything from light tooling stuff up o aircraft grade so they are plenty strong to hold a bar to a strut.

But if your worried id have just got the awrs

 

[haveahotcarl]

So I got Ken to cancel my AWR endlinks order. But racingline's site says they are out of stock. They only have an e-mail contact form, which is always a black hole with these sites. Anyone have a number for them (although it'll be intl from the states I guess)? I used the form on Monday and haven't heard a response.
I really don't want to put homemade parts on my car, but it looks like the best option at this point. Hell of a lot cheaper at least.

I wouldn't worry at all about "homemade parts" on your car, at least not the endlinks... I can assure you that the threaded rod is more than strong enough to take the loading without buckling. When I made mine I changed a few things to make them "better" or at least what I would consider better.

First, instead of spacing out the endlink with washers and relying on the o-ring for spacing, I used flanged bronze bushings and with larger o-rings. McMaster # 6338K414 Bronze bushings (SAE 841) and standard Buna-N #310 o-rings.

Second, there is no need to use grade 8 bolts on the end, or fine threaded bolts unless you have them around. The threaded rod does have to be fine thread, but the bolts do not. You will note that I used socket head bolts, this is just because I had them lying around; I would recommend hex head, grade 5 if you are worried.

Now I didn't do the math and calculate critical buckling loads for the components, but if it makes you feel better I can. Also, if you are wondering by what authority I make these claims, I am a mechanical engineer.

Here is a picture of how mine ended up.

 

[Valk]

my links are the same but i use 2.5" bolts with teflon sleeves to space the ball-joint from the bar/strut. i also use lock washers to firmly anchor the seperate ends of the link so the only thing that moves is the ball in the joint. orings would wear out.