Installshield's NA Build
- Thread starter Installshield 2
- Start date
tweety2300
Member
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- 2001 mazda protege mp3
Everyone and their long rods...
But seriesly it would probably be beneficial to see how Honda motors make do much power NA. Friend of mine has an h22 making 260whp all motor, if you could get the fs to make that alot of people would be selling their turbo stuff. Although I'm sure anything I could think of has already been thought of and discussed.
But seriesly it would probably be beneficial to see how Honda motors make do much power NA. Friend of mine has an h22 making 260whp all motor, if you could get the fs to make that alot of people would be selling their turbo stuff. Although I'm sure anything I could think of has already been thought of and discussed.
In short its a Honda, around this time in history Honda made some of the best motors ever (at least IMO (F20B, B16, B18, H22 and then the F20C)).
In regards to the H22A it has extra displacement, Longish rods that make for a nice rod ratio (+1.50, iirc its like 1.56) and a really well designed head, it helps that it has VTEC which means it suffers little of the low down consequences we have of running a large cam.
They destroked the engine and used the head and block in Formula 3, for the same reasons that Installs destroking the FS.
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Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
If any of you get bored, or want to brush up on building a 4 cylinder engine:
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/
thats a ~300whp NA 2.0L B20 built with pretty much off the shelf parts, and some 'tricks' here and there with machining...but nothing all that exotic as far as materials...
Honda's power comes from their heads...at least, it used to...they're not exactly setting the world on fire any more in that regard...But a k20 for example...they have something like .475" lift iirc for the big lobes in certain years, and over 250 degrees overlap at .050"...even with twiggy's, i'm just under .4"...our heads just don't have room for that...and i think our valves are pretty similar in size too...
so without some pretty crazy head work...the potential for 150hp/liter, like a k20...simply isn't there...but i'm still confident in getting right up to and around 200whp...I nearly did it once already, with a completely half assed tune...this never really was a build about peak output, anyway...so i'm not really concerned with it...
but tweety...i see your point...its definitely far from an 'easy' engine to start NA on...takes at the very least a stand alone and cams to even begin seeing worthwhile gains...and by that point you're well over half the cost of a simple turbo kit...that'll give a lot more power...
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/
thats a ~300whp NA 2.0L B20 built with pretty much off the shelf parts, and some 'tricks' here and there with machining...but nothing all that exotic as far as materials...
Honda's power comes from their heads...at least, it used to...they're not exactly setting the world on fire any more in that regard...But a k20 for example...they have something like .475" lift iirc for the big lobes in certain years, and over 250 degrees overlap at .050"...even with twiggy's, i'm just under .4"...our heads just don't have room for that...and i think our valves are pretty similar in size too...
so without some pretty crazy head work...the potential for 150hp/liter, like a k20...simply isn't there...but i'm still confident in getting right up to and around 200whp...I nearly did it once already, with a completely half assed tune...this never really was a build about peak output, anyway...so i'm not really concerned with it...
but tweety...i see your point...its definitely far from an 'easy' engine to start NA on...takes at the very least a stand alone and cams to even begin seeing worthwhile gains...and by that point you're well over half the cost of a simple turbo kit...that'll give a lot more power...
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Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
been playing around with the elm 327 and torque pro lately...pretty cool stuff...
I used to work at a construction supply company (a limestone supplier), and the whole business was around selling stone by the ton...When i worked there, i drove my car on the weigh station haha, and a friend gave me the print out...with a full tank of gas (just filled that morning), spare tire, sub, and me in it...2974lbs...and that was with the heavier Rota D2's...which total about 20lbs more than the Enkei's i have installed now...
the torque pro has a bunch of different telemetry plug-ins to mess with approx HP output, Torque, and 0-60 times...it uses the phone's acceleration sensor, as well as GPS speed tracking for time related stuff...and i'm not exactly sure what it uses for HP calculation...It does have a 'test HP' program, where you roll from about 5mph in gear and accelerate to red-line without shifting...it takes the vehicle weight (which i added minus the ~20lbs reduced from the new wheels) it takes rev input from the OBD-II scanner, speed change over time (acceleration) from the sensor and GPS, as well as air temp, altitude, and est. barometric pressure...it also logs fuel delivery, trim %, and timing from from the car's computer...and saves a perfect graph just like a dyno print out...i don't know exactly how accurate it is, as i'm not sure of how it does all that math (which formulas its using, i mean)...torque and HP intersect right where they should, and it even traces an AFR line within the graph as well...
long story short...its giving me consistent 0-60 times, which are done from a complete stop obviously... of 6.8-.9 seconds... a few where over 7 seconds, but it seems to be traction related as there is a lot of gravel on roads this time of year...but i found a clear remote strip of paved farm road near my office that i could mess around on a little...You first run the length of your 'track' back and forth at 30mph or so...the GPS elevation change is factored into the 0-60 time, and the HP measurement...These 'adjustments' can be toggled on and off, so you can see what the actual recordings where, and the adjusted recordings back to back...it seems nothing was adjusted, so the road must've been flat enough that it didn't realistically matter...0-60 times in either direction were identical...
so i then did the 5 mph to redline test in 2nd gear...got a peak HP output of 142whp avg over 3 runs...I'm fairly sure that is higher than what i really have, but that output would line up with the 0-60 times pretty well...and makes the car currently roughly at a stock MSP's output...it lines up with my twiggy's too, as i can blatantly see the HP curve way up around 5200 rpm...max torque was 127 lb/ft, at 4950 rpm...significantly higher than where max torque happens on a stock FS iirc, but i have seen a stock dyno sheet in years...The log gives an intake air temp of 48 degrees..thats coming from the car's computer, must've been a little heat soaked at the IAT sensor as it was barely 40 degrees outside...and a elevation via GPS at 617 feet.
HP doesn't care about gear ratios...but i think i could get a more accurate measurement doing this test in 3rd or 4th gear (at a much closer to 1:1 ratio)...problem is, i don't have room for that without a real track...as by the end of even third, its not exactly subtle speed wise...My concern with the gear ratios is that i'm running a UDP right now...and UDP's do very funny things to torque, especially when used in short gears...meaning, the UDP gives its biggest benefit in 1st and 2nd gear (the math behind it is similar to large weight savings from the car itself)...by 3rd gear, the advantage the UDP is mostly gone...i'm thinking the UDP helps tremendously with a 0-60 time, or a 5-~64 time (the HP test)...and might be screwing up the math for torque...and i'm pretty sure the app is just using torque and rpm to get HP, as it has no way to measure it with any true standard...i.e. a weighted roller like a real dyno...
either way...not too bad, at least 0-60 time...if i'm really about 2 seconds faster to 60...after 11 years of ownerhsip...than i was when i bought it...i'll take it...i'd assume my actual whp number right now is more around 135whp...as i've seen many dyno's of ~130whp with JDM cams, and all the bolt ons...the only real difference i have from those is the MP3 computer and twiggy's...but who knows...
I'm trying to learn the app too...so much info, but i'm blind on what PIDs are available...most of them work, and some work even though it says they won't in the scan...yet some say 'ok' scan wise, but claim 'no data'...i'm still figuring all that out...and i'm having problems making an account on the torque site...when i finish that, i can upload all the logs and stuff...
I used to work at a construction supply company (a limestone supplier), and the whole business was around selling stone by the ton...When i worked there, i drove my car on the weigh station haha, and a friend gave me the print out...with a full tank of gas (just filled that morning), spare tire, sub, and me in it...2974lbs...and that was with the heavier Rota D2's...which total about 20lbs more than the Enkei's i have installed now...
the torque pro has a bunch of different telemetry plug-ins to mess with approx HP output, Torque, and 0-60 times...it uses the phone's acceleration sensor, as well as GPS speed tracking for time related stuff...and i'm not exactly sure what it uses for HP calculation...It does have a 'test HP' program, where you roll from about 5mph in gear and accelerate to red-line without shifting...it takes the vehicle weight (which i added minus the ~20lbs reduced from the new wheels) it takes rev input from the OBD-II scanner, speed change over time (acceleration) from the sensor and GPS, as well as air temp, altitude, and est. barometric pressure...it also logs fuel delivery, trim %, and timing from from the car's computer...and saves a perfect graph just like a dyno print out...i don't know exactly how accurate it is, as i'm not sure of how it does all that math (which formulas its using, i mean)...torque and HP intersect right where they should, and it even traces an AFR line within the graph as well...
long story short...its giving me consistent 0-60 times, which are done from a complete stop obviously... of 6.8-.9 seconds... a few where over 7 seconds, but it seems to be traction related as there is a lot of gravel on roads this time of year...but i found a clear remote strip of paved farm road near my office that i could mess around on a little...You first run the length of your 'track' back and forth at 30mph or so...the GPS elevation change is factored into the 0-60 time, and the HP measurement...These 'adjustments' can be toggled on and off, so you can see what the actual recordings where, and the adjusted recordings back to back...it seems nothing was adjusted, so the road must've been flat enough that it didn't realistically matter...0-60 times in either direction were identical...
so i then did the 5 mph to redline test in 2nd gear...got a peak HP output of 142whp avg over 3 runs...I'm fairly sure that is higher than what i really have, but that output would line up with the 0-60 times pretty well...and makes the car currently roughly at a stock MSP's output...it lines up with my twiggy's too, as i can blatantly see the HP curve way up around 5200 rpm...max torque was 127 lb/ft, at 4950 rpm...significantly higher than where max torque happens on a stock FS iirc, but i have seen a stock dyno sheet in years...The log gives an intake air temp of 48 degrees..thats coming from the car's computer, must've been a little heat soaked at the IAT sensor as it was barely 40 degrees outside...and a elevation via GPS at 617 feet.
HP doesn't care about gear ratios...but i think i could get a more accurate measurement doing this test in 3rd or 4th gear (at a much closer to 1:1 ratio)...problem is, i don't have room for that without a real track...as by the end of even third, its not exactly subtle speed wise...My concern with the gear ratios is that i'm running a UDP right now...and UDP's do very funny things to torque, especially when used in short gears...meaning, the UDP gives its biggest benefit in 1st and 2nd gear (the math behind it is similar to large weight savings from the car itself)...by 3rd gear, the advantage the UDP is mostly gone...i'm thinking the UDP helps tremendously with a 0-60 time, or a 5-~64 time (the HP test)...and might be screwing up the math for torque...and i'm pretty sure the app is just using torque and rpm to get HP, as it has no way to measure it with any true standard...i.e. a weighted roller like a real dyno...
either way...not too bad, at least 0-60 time...if i'm really about 2 seconds faster to 60...after 11 years of ownerhsip...than i was when i bought it...i'll take it...i'd assume my actual whp number right now is more around 135whp...as i've seen many dyno's of ~130whp with JDM cams, and all the bolt ons...the only real difference i have from those is the MP3 computer and twiggy's...but who knows...
I'm trying to learn the app too...so much info, but i'm blind on what PIDs are available...most of them work, and some work even though it says they won't in the scan...yet some say 'ok' scan wise, but claim 'no data'...i'm still figuring all that out...and i'm having problems making an account on the torque site...when i finish that, i can upload all the logs and stuff...
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I ran a 6.7 sec 0-60 ,15.27 @ 91.5 best in my P5, using a GTech Pro RR on F215/35/17 Falken FK 452's last summer. I've got some BF Goodrich drag radials on it now, waiting for warm temps, hopefully I can launch it harder and maybe run a 6.5 0-60, 14.85 @ 92.5? That's with me and the car weighing 2880 lbs.
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Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Nice man. How did you get the vehicle weight? I got 2764 without the sub, and without me. I'm 200 and the sub is around 30 I think. But 2764 was with heavier wheels. I was a under Mazdas curb rating, on a scale that is calibrated daily after you take the 20 plus pound weight difference.. So the weight I entered was just based off of that. I should do it again this spring.
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I used a "CAT" scale at the truck stop. Performance part alternatives add up for weigh loss. I think I could probably drop another 150 lbs removing seats,radio,installing my CF hood,pulling spare and some other small stuff.
icle weight? I got 2764 without the sub, and without me. I'm 200 and the sub is around 30 I think. But 2764 was with heavier wheels. I was a under Mazdas curb rating, on a scale that is calibrated daily after you take the 20 plus pound weight difference.. So the weight I entered was just based off of that. I should do it again this spring.[/QUOTE]
icle weight? I got 2764 without the sub, and without me. I'm 200 and the sub is around 30 I think. But 2764 was with heavier wheels. I was a under Mazdas curb rating, on a scale that is calibrated daily after you take the 20 plus pound weight difference.. So the weight I entered was just based off of that. I should do it again this spring.[/QUOTE]
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
oh ok, yeah thats basically what i used...its just a scale each truck would drive onto entering the quarry, and then again when it leaves...Accurate to 1 lb haha, pretty nuts considering some of those trucks were leaving with 20 tons of stone...
I really do need to do it again, i forgot also that the first weighing i did was with the factory exhaust manifold and pre-cat...the header is definitely considerably lighter...So i'd like to get a better idea of current weight, and i'm pretty sure my weight in that app was a little higher than it should've been...which will slightly inflate the whp estimates. The dyno's in the NA thread; only one had topped 140whp (he ended up with nearly 150whp), but it was with a standalone and slightly bumped compression ratio...i'd like to be in the 130's before i hack the computer up, but i'm almost completely certain i'm not in the 140's yet.
I really do need to do it again, i forgot also that the first weighing i did was with the factory exhaust manifold and pre-cat...the header is definitely considerably lighter...So i'd like to get a better idea of current weight, and i'm pretty sure my weight in that app was a little higher than it should've been...which will slightly inflate the whp estimates. The dyno's in the NA thread; only one had topped 140whp (he ended up with nearly 150whp), but it was with a standalone and slightly bumped compression ratio...i'd like to be in the 130's before i hack the computer up, but i'm almost completely certain i'm not in the 140's yet.
I tried 3 different horsepower calculators online based on weight, et, trapspeed, they said I'm making around 167 whp and 200 at the flywheel,as I recall from last year.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
#6 Torque VS. HP, and how its measured:
In the first article i wrote i went over what HP is, sort of...As I already mentioned, its very difficult to explain...particularly in the area of 'which is more important: torque or HP?'...i'll touch on that before i talk about ways to measure these 2 outputs...
If you read #1, you've seen the basic formula, and have the idea that all an engine makes is torque firmly in place...When it comes to an engine making 'twist', you basically want 2 things. You want to make that twist as 'strong' as possible, but you also want to make it at a high frequency...THAT is Horsepower...HP is simply how frequently you can get the engine to make torque. You can make a huge pile of torque at low rpm with a diesel truck engine, but you won't be making that torque very frequently...as the revs are low...where as a modern F1 engine will make literally motorcycle engine like torque down low, but can spin up to 18,000 rpm...where the 2.4L V-8 will be making nearly 800hp...The F1 engine can apply its torque many times more than the diesel engine in the same given time...
Luckily though, there is a slightly easeir way to think about what HP actually does for a car...HP is a measurement of torque application, as in how much torque is applied over a certain amount of time....where as torque is simply a measurement of force at a given instant...acceleration of the car is mostly influenced by the HP, NOT the torque...despite numerous myths...
Since HP is measure over time...its not effected by gear ratios or anything that create 'instant' benefits...acceleration of a car is effected by 2 things...the HP output of the engine (not just the peak HP, but the 'area under the curve')...and the mass of the car...you always hear about a power to weight ratio, but how often does someone say a torque to weight ratio?...almost never...as torque is multiplied by gears, and since those are very different car to car...its not a comparable measurement...
to make a car accelerate faster...you have 2 options...increase hp, or decrease mass...or in the best case...do both...
To measure a car's acutal HP, its actually VERY simple math wise...you only really need 2 things. You need to know the mass of the car as accurately as possible...and you need a accurate way to measure the acceleration over a specific amount of time....and to measure that acceleration, you only need to know the change in vehicle speed over a specific amount of time in seconds...if you have a 3000lb car, you can find its HP output, at the wheels (which will be the number after all parasitic loss is factored from the drivetrain), by measuring the amount of time it takes to accelerate from say 20 mph to 100 mph...the specific speed change doesn't matter...it can be 10 to 20mph, it can be 1 to 200 mph...the time in seconds will be different, but the derived HP measurement will stay the same...the only thing that is important is to have no wheel slip during the test, and no gear changes, as those will foul up the measurement..that is why most testing equipment measures output from a 'rolling start', and commence the test in only one gear...
RPM actually isn't important for this test...you can still find a peak HP number form the above without engine rpm, but rpm is needed to know exactly where peak hp occured within the engine's rev band...also, by knowing the engine rpm change through the test, you also can then reverse engineer the engines torque output as well.
As far as equipment to measure this stuff...its done by some form of dynameter. There is something called a brake dyno, which is used on engines outside of the vehicle, and does it completely differently than what i just explained...but i'll leave that alone for now, as its measured output isn't really relevant as many 'parts' of the car are not factored properly...an inertial dyno is what will give you the best illustration of your engine's output, as it is done with the vehicle in your actual car.
a industrial automotive dyno simplifies things a little, despite it being a very expensive machine...Instead of needing the exact vehicle weight; most dyno's will use a balanced 'roller'...of which its mass, diameter, and circumference are measured and known...it doesn't matter what those numbers are, they just need to be known...For practical reasons, most rollers are extremely heavy, in some cases more than the car being tested...for the best measurement of output, the longer the test takes...the better...if you had a 50 lb roller, even a weak engine could accelerate it so fast the test would be over in less than a second...making it too hard to take acceleration measurements of the roller at hundreds of different points.
so with the mass known, the diameter and circumference are needed to know its change in speed relative to the car's drive wheels turning it....if you know the start and stop speeds, you know the total acceleration, and if you measure the time it took to change that roller speed...you know the horsepower output of the engine...but in order to know peak horsepower, you need to measure that change in speed many many times...the point at which the speed change is happening at its maximum is where the engine makes its peak power.
that is all a dyno does...it measures how long it takes your car to accelerate a known mass over a specific amount of time...the faster it accelerates that known mass, the more power its making...The dyno techs will also use an adapter of some sort to get a engine speed reading for the test...by knowing engine speeds and correlating that with 'where' the engine made the most acceleration, they can plot a graph in engine rpm of what the acceleration curve looks like...they can also then find the torque curve with a calculator reversing the formula i showed in article #1. Its important to remember that this torque value given is misleading, because its torque from the crank AFTER parasitic loss is factored...its NOT actual torque at the wheels, because of gear ratios multiplying that force...your tires are actually twisting the roller with MORE force than that value no matter what gear you're in (the final drive will always make torque at the wheels higher than at the crank)...but it is a good way to see how efficient your drivetrain is, as long as the factory output at the crank is accurate...
But since we now know the measurements needed to accurately find hp at the wheels...do you really need a $750,000+ machine to do it? Actually, not really...
You can use Earth as a pretty good roller...and instead of trying to measure how much Earth rotates from the force of your engine, you can instead measure how much the car rolls on its surface...You need to know get an accurate measurement of your cars mass, though. You also need a few devices to measure acceleration accurately. This can be done by an accelerometer, a gps system, or in some cases both (the torque app i have on my phone does exactly this)...if those 2 variables are measured accurately, you'll get a hp number every bit as accurate as a real dyno...since you're measuring total acceleration, you won't be able to figure out torque or where peak hp occurs without incorporating engine speed into the test (torque does this, too)...and lastly, you need to do the test on something as flat as possible, because gravity will increase or decrease the acceleration time depending on going up or down hill...
overall...its pretty simple stuff...but its surprising that there are people that have had their car on a dyno many times, but still aren't sure of whats actually being measured.
In the first article i wrote i went over what HP is, sort of...As I already mentioned, its very difficult to explain...particularly in the area of 'which is more important: torque or HP?'...i'll touch on that before i talk about ways to measure these 2 outputs...
If you read #1, you've seen the basic formula, and have the idea that all an engine makes is torque firmly in place...When it comes to an engine making 'twist', you basically want 2 things. You want to make that twist as 'strong' as possible, but you also want to make it at a high frequency...THAT is Horsepower...HP is simply how frequently you can get the engine to make torque. You can make a huge pile of torque at low rpm with a diesel truck engine, but you won't be making that torque very frequently...as the revs are low...where as a modern F1 engine will make literally motorcycle engine like torque down low, but can spin up to 18,000 rpm...where the 2.4L V-8 will be making nearly 800hp...The F1 engine can apply its torque many times more than the diesel engine in the same given time...
Luckily though, there is a slightly easeir way to think about what HP actually does for a car...HP is a measurement of torque application, as in how much torque is applied over a certain amount of time....where as torque is simply a measurement of force at a given instant...acceleration of the car is mostly influenced by the HP, NOT the torque...despite numerous myths...
Since HP is measure over time...its not effected by gear ratios or anything that create 'instant' benefits...acceleration of a car is effected by 2 things...the HP output of the engine (not just the peak HP, but the 'area under the curve')...and the mass of the car...you always hear about a power to weight ratio, but how often does someone say a torque to weight ratio?...almost never...as torque is multiplied by gears, and since those are very different car to car...its not a comparable measurement...
to make a car accelerate faster...you have 2 options...increase hp, or decrease mass...or in the best case...do both...
To measure a car's acutal HP, its actually VERY simple math wise...you only really need 2 things. You need to know the mass of the car as accurately as possible...and you need a accurate way to measure the acceleration over a specific amount of time....and to measure that acceleration, you only need to know the change in vehicle speed over a specific amount of time in seconds...if you have a 3000lb car, you can find its HP output, at the wheels (which will be the number after all parasitic loss is factored from the drivetrain), by measuring the amount of time it takes to accelerate from say 20 mph to 100 mph...the specific speed change doesn't matter...it can be 10 to 20mph, it can be 1 to 200 mph...the time in seconds will be different, but the derived HP measurement will stay the same...the only thing that is important is to have no wheel slip during the test, and no gear changes, as those will foul up the measurement..that is why most testing equipment measures output from a 'rolling start', and commence the test in only one gear...
RPM actually isn't important for this test...you can still find a peak HP number form the above without engine rpm, but rpm is needed to know exactly where peak hp occured within the engine's rev band...also, by knowing the engine rpm change through the test, you also can then reverse engineer the engines torque output as well.
As far as equipment to measure this stuff...its done by some form of dynameter. There is something called a brake dyno, which is used on engines outside of the vehicle, and does it completely differently than what i just explained...but i'll leave that alone for now, as its measured output isn't really relevant as many 'parts' of the car are not factored properly...an inertial dyno is what will give you the best illustration of your engine's output, as it is done with the vehicle in your actual car.
a industrial automotive dyno simplifies things a little, despite it being a very expensive machine...Instead of needing the exact vehicle weight; most dyno's will use a balanced 'roller'...of which its mass, diameter, and circumference are measured and known...it doesn't matter what those numbers are, they just need to be known...For practical reasons, most rollers are extremely heavy, in some cases more than the car being tested...for the best measurement of output, the longer the test takes...the better...if you had a 50 lb roller, even a weak engine could accelerate it so fast the test would be over in less than a second...making it too hard to take acceleration measurements of the roller at hundreds of different points.
so with the mass known, the diameter and circumference are needed to know its change in speed relative to the car's drive wheels turning it....if you know the start and stop speeds, you know the total acceleration, and if you measure the time it took to change that roller speed...you know the horsepower output of the engine...but in order to know peak horsepower, you need to measure that change in speed many many times...the point at which the speed change is happening at its maximum is where the engine makes its peak power.
that is all a dyno does...it measures how long it takes your car to accelerate a known mass over a specific amount of time...the faster it accelerates that known mass, the more power its making...The dyno techs will also use an adapter of some sort to get a engine speed reading for the test...by knowing engine speeds and correlating that with 'where' the engine made the most acceleration, they can plot a graph in engine rpm of what the acceleration curve looks like...they can also then find the torque curve with a calculator reversing the formula i showed in article #1. Its important to remember that this torque value given is misleading, because its torque from the crank AFTER parasitic loss is factored...its NOT actual torque at the wheels, because of gear ratios multiplying that force...your tires are actually twisting the roller with MORE force than that value no matter what gear you're in (the final drive will always make torque at the wheels higher than at the crank)...but it is a good way to see how efficient your drivetrain is, as long as the factory output at the crank is accurate...
But since we now know the measurements needed to accurately find hp at the wheels...do you really need a $750,000+ machine to do it? Actually, not really...
You can use Earth as a pretty good roller...and instead of trying to measure how much Earth rotates from the force of your engine, you can instead measure how much the car rolls on its surface...You need to know get an accurate measurement of your cars mass, though. You also need a few devices to measure acceleration accurately. This can be done by an accelerometer, a gps system, or in some cases both (the torque app i have on my phone does exactly this)...if those 2 variables are measured accurately, you'll get a hp number every bit as accurate as a real dyno...since you're measuring total acceleration, you won't be able to figure out torque or where peak hp occurs without incorporating engine speed into the test (torque does this, too)...and lastly, you need to do the test on something as flat as possible, because gravity will increase or decrease the acceleration time depending on going up or down hill...
overall...its pretty simple stuff...but its surprising that there are people that have had their car on a dyno many times, but still aren't sure of whats actually being measured.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
No real updates for the time being, spent the last few weeks getting everything in order for a proposal to my gf...She said yes, i'm in good shape haha.
I did finally order my oil filter adapter and DIN gauge holder, hoping to have that in hand by the weekend.
other than that i'm just sourcing a engine crane to finally get around to doing the clutch and flywheel..its finally starting to warm up, and i have a few completely free weekends on the horizon. During that install, i'm hoping to really attack some rust issues...I'm going to pull the side skirts and rear bumper cover, and address anything i can find...The rust i have is still extremely creepy, as it popped up out of no where a few years ago...but hasn't changed at all...i'm hoping i'm lucky so far, as if i can stop whats there from spreading, there is little immediate threat to the car...
I did get around to sealing the passenger front wheel well...I had 3 small holes (about half the size of a dime, each) along a seam weld in the wheel well...just under and in front of the two studs where the timing belt side engine mount bracket bolts down...The holes and thicker sheet metal of the wheel well were all fine, but the rust spread over an ate a baseball sized chunk of the very thin sheet metal that is pressed on top of the thicker metal underneath (i'm not overly worried about that, as the thing metal serves no purpose other than rounding off the front section of the well...its NOT the shock tower metal)...i dissolved as much as i could with naval jelly, cleaned and primed it with rusty metal primer...and coated the shat out of it with 3m undercoating rubberized spray...both in the engine bay, and in the wheel well...all this after plugging the small holes off with quick steel...for the past month, its held perfectly...so i'm hoping it stopped anything from spreading in this location...
I need to do similar work on the rear wheel well, particularly the passenger side...as the paint began to bubble in a small section, but i know the water is getting in from the inside lip...not through the surface, as the paint is still intact...with the bumper cover off, i'm going to fill all seams with more quick steel, and similar coat everything with that rubber junk...that will stop it from getting worse, then later this summer i hope to sand down the bubbled paint and recoat it...i just need to make sure i've stopped it from spreading first...
I did finally order my oil filter adapter and DIN gauge holder, hoping to have that in hand by the weekend.
other than that i'm just sourcing a engine crane to finally get around to doing the clutch and flywheel..its finally starting to warm up, and i have a few completely free weekends on the horizon. During that install, i'm hoping to really attack some rust issues...I'm going to pull the side skirts and rear bumper cover, and address anything i can find...The rust i have is still extremely creepy, as it popped up out of no where a few years ago...but hasn't changed at all...i'm hoping i'm lucky so far, as if i can stop whats there from spreading, there is little immediate threat to the car...
I did get around to sealing the passenger front wheel well...I had 3 small holes (about half the size of a dime, each) along a seam weld in the wheel well...just under and in front of the two studs where the timing belt side engine mount bracket bolts down...The holes and thicker sheet metal of the wheel well were all fine, but the rust spread over an ate a baseball sized chunk of the very thin sheet metal that is pressed on top of the thicker metal underneath (i'm not overly worried about that, as the thing metal serves no purpose other than rounding off the front section of the well...its NOT the shock tower metal)...i dissolved as much as i could with naval jelly, cleaned and primed it with rusty metal primer...and coated the shat out of it with 3m undercoating rubberized spray...both in the engine bay, and in the wheel well...all this after plugging the small holes off with quick steel...for the past month, its held perfectly...so i'm hoping it stopped anything from spreading in this location...
I need to do similar work on the rear wheel well, particularly the passenger side...as the paint began to bubble in a small section, but i know the water is getting in from the inside lip...not through the surface, as the paint is still intact...with the bumper cover off, i'm going to fill all seams with more quick steel, and similar coat everything with that rubber junk...that will stop it from getting worse, then later this summer i hope to sand down the bubbled paint and recoat it...i just need to make sure i've stopped it from spreading first...
Sand it with a dremel and sanding drum then zinc treat it and immediately POR 15 it.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
^thanks man!
and yeah BR, i'm not sure the exact order of this yet...when i do grind down that little bit of fender, i'll do it right...for now, i'm more interested in in slowing, or hopefully stopping, water from getting in to that area...
this morning i pulled my jack out of the trunk, and had a flashlight down in the cavity that it sits in...i noticed about a half teaspoon of nearly perfectly clean water...absolutely no rust in there, or any sign of corrosion on any of the metal i could see...i've read some posts recently where guys had this fender issue, and eventually the entire jack area rusted out...so it seems i'm on my way to that problem...
its tough to say though...as the car hadn't been driven in over a week until today, and it hasn't been driven when wet in even longer...but it did rain/snow a bunch lately...so i'm wondering if water is getting in there while parked also...which would mean the leak could be coming from anywhere...i would also assume the water would've been dirtier if it had come through the wheel wells...this looked like drinking water in there haha...
i'll no more friday afternoon, thats when i'll finally pull the entire rear bumper cover and see exactly what i'm up against...
and yeah BR, i'm not sure the exact order of this yet...when i do grind down that little bit of fender, i'll do it right...for now, i'm more interested in in slowing, or hopefully stopping, water from getting in to that area...
this morning i pulled my jack out of the trunk, and had a flashlight down in the cavity that it sits in...i noticed about a half teaspoon of nearly perfectly clean water...absolutely no rust in there, or any sign of corrosion on any of the metal i could see...i've read some posts recently where guys had this fender issue, and eventually the entire jack area rusted out...so it seems i'm on my way to that problem...
its tough to say though...as the car hadn't been driven in over a week until today, and it hasn't been driven when wet in even longer...but it did rain/snow a bunch lately...so i'm wondering if water is getting in there while parked also...which would mean the leak could be coming from anywhere...i would also assume the water would've been dirtier if it had come through the wheel wells...this looked like drinking water in there haha...
i'll no more friday afternoon, thats when i'll finally pull the entire rear bumper cover and see exactly what i'm up against...
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Finally got my gauges installed. Pic below, sorry for the quality, it was getting dark and raining/snowing...pretty annoying for this time of year...the pic was just a test fitting before fully installed (the gauges are now straight), at which point it was too dark to bother with. I'll hopefully get some better ones up later today.
overall i'm pretty happy...wiring was cake...I have an aftermarket alpine receiver which needs a direct line to the battery (has a pretty powerful internal amp), and it included its own fuse...it also has a remote line triggered by the ignition switch, which allows both my receiver and sub amplifier to power on...
because of this, i kind of lucked out...when i installed that years ago i just capped off the factory 12v switched and constant power sources, and ran the included new lines entirely...this left all factory stereo power supply lines just hanging in there with nothing else on the circuit, which i was able to easily splice into...the oil temp and pressure gauges need switched power, the clock needs constant...simple as that...these gauges do not dim without a proprietary dimmer box (or custom made one) however...and neither does my receiver...so i also had a capped illumination line back there, which i used for all 3...you can get these gauges to dim, but it was more work than whats necessary, as they blend in perfectly with the factory lighting anyway...I just tapped into the alpine's beefy ground wire, also...
Sensor wiring was just as easy...just used a glowshift oil plate adapter from crossover auto and the included sensors with my gauges...ran the sensor wires through the firewall clutch pedal hole, tied them off by the year engine mount, and they run right to the plate...i found a good grounding point on the passenger shock tower too...
the only bad part so far is that my analog clock seems to be calibrated incorrectly...in 12 hours it was about 15 minutes behind...It definitely receives constant power, as i can use the digital button to adjust it with the key not even in the car...annoying, as the only reason i bought it was because i never liked how my alpine doesn't show time with the head unit off...and its been years of fumbling for a cell phone to see what time it is...hopefully they get back to me soon with what to do, maybe it can be adjusted by me...or at the very least i hope they send out a replacement quickly...
nearly 160,000 miles and still getting around 22psi at hot idle...ideally i'd like more, but i've seen way less with these cars and factory oil pumps in far newer condition...cruising pressure maintains above 60psi...and stays even after some pretty hard driving...temp wise, oil peaked around 240 today after a 30 mile 'spirited' drive...but remains around 220 or so for just normal cruising...
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9wG_iZEqPQNYlNoN1FyRFhMbW8/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9wG_iZEqPQNZGJKOFo2RFdZeGc/edit?usp=sharing
by the way, i used this excellent how-to for reference...but ended up not needing to mess with the same circuits because of the above mentioned stereo 'luck' (happy about that because i didn't have to remove anything but the receiver, not the radio bezel/trim)...i also first tried to 'daisy chain' my oil temp and pressure sensor grounds as he did...but the temp sensor hated that, so i removed the link and everything worked perfectly right away...my temp sensor is grounded simply in the plate, the pressure sensor is grounded on the shock tower...
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...Installed-(Oil-Pressure-amp-Temp)-on-Protege5
overall i'm pretty happy...wiring was cake...I have an aftermarket alpine receiver which needs a direct line to the battery (has a pretty powerful internal amp), and it included its own fuse...it also has a remote line triggered by the ignition switch, which allows both my receiver and sub amplifier to power on...
because of this, i kind of lucked out...when i installed that years ago i just capped off the factory 12v switched and constant power sources, and ran the included new lines entirely...this left all factory stereo power supply lines just hanging in there with nothing else on the circuit, which i was able to easily splice into...the oil temp and pressure gauges need switched power, the clock needs constant...simple as that...these gauges do not dim without a proprietary dimmer box (or custom made one) however...and neither does my receiver...so i also had a capped illumination line back there, which i used for all 3...you can get these gauges to dim, but it was more work than whats necessary, as they blend in perfectly with the factory lighting anyway...I just tapped into the alpine's beefy ground wire, also...
Sensor wiring was just as easy...just used a glowshift oil plate adapter from crossover auto and the included sensors with my gauges...ran the sensor wires through the firewall clutch pedal hole, tied them off by the year engine mount, and they run right to the plate...i found a good grounding point on the passenger shock tower too...
the only bad part so far is that my analog clock seems to be calibrated incorrectly...in 12 hours it was about 15 minutes behind...It definitely receives constant power, as i can use the digital button to adjust it with the key not even in the car...annoying, as the only reason i bought it was because i never liked how my alpine doesn't show time with the head unit off...and its been years of fumbling for a cell phone to see what time it is...hopefully they get back to me soon with what to do, maybe it can be adjusted by me...or at the very least i hope they send out a replacement quickly...
nearly 160,000 miles and still getting around 22psi at hot idle...ideally i'd like more, but i've seen way less with these cars and factory oil pumps in far newer condition...cruising pressure maintains above 60psi...and stays even after some pretty hard driving...temp wise, oil peaked around 240 today after a 30 mile 'spirited' drive...but remains around 220 or so for just normal cruising...
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9wG_iZEqPQNYlNoN1FyRFhMbW8/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9wG_iZEqPQNZGJKOFo2RFdZeGc/edit?usp=sharing
by the way, i used this excellent how-to for reference...but ended up not needing to mess with the same circuits because of the above mentioned stereo 'luck' (happy about that because i didn't have to remove anything but the receiver, not the radio bezel/trim)...i also first tried to 'daisy chain' my oil temp and pressure sensor grounds as he did...but the temp sensor hated that, so i removed the link and everything worked perfectly right away...my temp sensor is grounded simply in the plate, the pressure sensor is grounded on the shock tower...
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...Installed-(Oil-Pressure-amp-Temp)-on-Protege5
Last edited:
tweety2300
Member
- :
- 2001 mazda protege mp3
Another good source to use is the power wire to the ciggarette lighter, that's what I used for my wide band.
