E-Manage powered Mazdaspeed!

[MP3skaterNC]

i dont get how Terry says the emanage is fine on all cars except the MSP, but then mazdamp3_18 is having issues with his MP3..

We never tried the timing control over an extended period of time on the protege yet. As a fuel computer the unit is great, thats how its hooked up on my car, we'll see what happens.

What ever happend to chooch?

 

[perfworks]

i dont get how Terry says the emanage is fine on all cars except the MSP, but then mazdamp3_18 is having issues with his MP3..

If the emanage is tuned and overlayed so that closed loop operation is "similar" to stock configuration, without too much variance in the load sites, then it should hold OK. Transition plays a large role in whether the ECU sees a prolonged problem with the sensor inputs.

 

[AutoBox]

so the only real issue with piggybacks on the msp is the transition between closed and open loop? if the ecu senses the open loop mode is way off the closed loop it forgets the changed in open loop and throws it back to stock??? sorry this issue has my head spining

 

[MPNick]

If the emanage is tuned and overlayed so that closed loop operation is "similar" to stock configuration, without too much variance in the load sites, then it should hold OK. Transition plays a large role in whether the ECU sees a prolonged problem with the sensor inputs.

How can it be "similar"? You need to make changes. If it is "similar" you are not tuning much because the output did not change much. What does tuned and overlayed mean? You do not overlay anything, you are changing signal outputs. Even with a standalone you do not "overlay" anything.

Open loop is open loop. This is why the AFR goes very rich with the MSP in open loop. If you are running a little more then stock boost with the MSP you are very lean in closed loop at light throttle. In the 3,000 to 4,500 range you are lean. This is where you need to add fuel. Hit open loop and the fuel comes around so much you need to take some fuel away. I have seen the AFR go from mid 13s to high 11s Try tuning that with an FMU. The timing seems to need some help also. You can add fuel at light throttle and no boost.

Not knocking anyone here but just not sure if the wording is right.


Thanks again


Later.................Nick

 

[igdrasil]

the ECU will always be making calculations to all modes: open and closed loop.

You need to tap the air intake temp sensor too...it will help the piggyback and fmu setups.

well....at least on the proteges, dont know how it will work on the mazdaspeed.

 

[perfworks]

How can it be "similar"? You need to make changes. If it is "similar" you are not tuning much because the output did not change much. What does tuned and overlayed mean? You do not overlay anything, you are changing signal outputs. Even with a standalone you do not "overlay" anything.

Open loop is open loop. This is why the AFR goes very rich with the MSP in open loop. If you are running a little more then stock boost with the MSP you are very lean in closed loop at light throttle. In the 3,000 to 4,500 range you are lean. This is where you need to add fuel. Hit open loop and the fuel comes around so much you need to take some fuel away. I have seen the AFR go from mid 13s to high 11s Try tuning that with an FMU. The timing seems to need some help also. You can add fuel at light throttle and no boost.

Not knocking anyone here but just not sure if the wording is right.


Thanks again


Later.................Nick

Overlaying, is a term used when you take your analog and injection map from the greddy and show a positive transition from your stock ecus' fuel and timing maps. If you have never used a greddy then you cant really undertsand. The greddy is unlike many other piggybacks out there which will function as standalone fuel controllers or ignition controllers. It will directly affect the duty cycle of the injector via the ground circuit. The "overlay" is when your airflow correction map and injector duty cycle map are in SYNC.

"similar" means that in closed loop your modifications need to be in check. Meaning that your analog adjustments for airflow need to be within certain limits so as to not set a MIL. In closed loop you are free to adjust within reason again but more forgiving. If your closed loop mapping goes to far in either direction (rich or lean) the ECU will adjust. IF you keep it within parameters set forth in closed loop operation it will allow the OPEN loop settings to stay.

So your last comment is somewhat correct. Yes if you turn the boost up you will need to increase the fuel to the cylinders in the rpm range accordingly. As long as you are within limits in CLOSED loop then your transition and return to closed loop drive cycles will remain. That way the piggy is doing its job.
I think some are forgetting the fact the piggybacks rely on the stock fuel and ignition tables. You are trying to make corrections by manipulating a constant value. For a given load and speed site there is a constant value. When adjusting your airflow signal for example you change the site the stock ECU is looking to to fuel and ignite the mixture. IF you "skip" some because you go too far in your adjustments it will be out of spec and ignore your settings. It will revert to learning them and rescale its own parameters again.
If any one has any questions feel free to ask. This a technical subject and i tried to be as lamen as possible so that ALL can understand. That is why i use quotation marks and terms such as those described above. If anyone is confused i would be more than happy to reiterate for you.

 

[perfworks]

so the only real issue with piggybacks on the msp is the transition between closed and open loop? if the ecu senses the open loop mode is way off the closed loop it forgets the changed in open loop and throws it back to stock??? sorry this issue has my head spining

I have tried to answer this above if you need more clarification please dont be afraid to ask. Not everyone understands the first time they read it.
You would be surprised how many tuners in many different markets dont understand the values they enter. They just add and subract without understanding what they are actually adding to the equation.
I am not trying to knock anyone either. But i will be more than happy to go over what i have learned thru the years and still do.
I have dedicated alot of my time to EMS tuning.
My company mainly focuses on the implimentation of various EMS systems for our and many other vehicles.

 

[perfworks]

Even with a standalone you do not "overlay" anything.

We arent talking about a standalone. There wouldnt be this discussion if we were tuning a standalone EMS for the car. We would just tune the correction table.

 

[Logan]

If the problem with our ECU's is altering the signals that are INPUT to the computer to change what the computer OUTPUT's, why isn't there a piggyback that alters what the computer OUTPUT's. This would solve the problem of the computer not seeing what it is expecting and reverting back to stock settings.
ie you install a different kind of piggyback on wires leading from the computer to things like coils and injectors.

 

[KzA]

man i wondered that for the longest time and never said anything..

if you think about it tho, when you modify the output it then modifies the input..say your modify the fuel output signal to tell it to dump more fuel, well that will make the 02 input rich..get me?

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

so would the e-manage system be worthwile looking into if I'm going with a turbo system that already has a wideband?

 

[perfworks]

If the problem with our ECU's is altering the signals that are INPUT to the computer to change what the computer OUTPUT's, why isn't there a piggyback that alters what the computer OUTPUT's. This would solve the problem of the computer not seeing what it is expecting and reverting back to stock settings.
ie you install a different kind of piggyback on wires leading from the computer to things like coils and injectors.

Yup its called Standalone EMS
No matter what is done while in closed loop the O2 sensor will see and cause the ECU to overide and compensate till the MIL comes on and cause drivability problems. In open loop this is not the problem.

 

[perfworks]

man i wondered that for the longest time and never said anything..

if you think about it tho, when you modify the output it then modifies the input..say your modify the fuel output signal to tell it to dump more fuel, well that will make the 02 input rich..get me?

It does not modify the input. The input is usually driver demand inputs. Such as your throttle. You are demanding more power. The MAF is just reading what you CAN process via airflow value to the ecu. The O2 is the only input that can have an affect.

On a side note . We need to have a tuning section here. Mods why not?
Maybe we can teach a few old dogs some new tricks.

 

[MPNick]

Maybe we can teach a few old dogs some new tricks.

I know I have 1,000s of pulls on the dyno tuning cars. Maybe there are few other people here that have really done tuning both on and off of the dyno.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

 

[MPNick]

the ECU will always be making calculations to all modes: open and closed loop.

You need to tap the air intake temp sensor too...it will help the piggyback and fmu setups.

well....at least on the proteges, dont know how it will work on the mazdaspeed.

Yes you have a great idea. Check out the info on the MPI thread. It covers what we do to run open loop type mode.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

 

[AutoBox]

Overlaying, is a term used when you take your analog and injection map from the greddy and show a positive transition from your stock ecus' fuel and timing maps. If you have never used a greddy then you cant really undertsand. The greddy is unlike many other piggybacks out there which will function as standalone fuel controllers or ignition controllers. It will directly affect the duty cycle of the injector via the ground circuit. The "overlay" is when your airflow correction map and injector duty cycle map are in SYNC.

"similar" means that in closed loop your modifications need to be in check. Meaning that your analog adjustments for airflow need to be within certain limits so as to not set a MIL. In closed loop you are free to adjust within reason again but more forgiving. If your closed loop mapping goes to far in either direction (rich or lean) the ECU will adjust. IF you keep it within parameters set forth in closed loop operation it will allow the OPEN loop settings to stay.

So your last comment is somewhat correct. Yes if you turn the boost up you will need to increase the fuel to the cylinders in the rpm range accordingly. As long as you are within limits in CLOSED loop then your transition and return to closed loop drive cycles will remain. That way the piggy is doing its job.
I think some are forgetting the fact the piggybacks rely on the stock fuel and ignition tables. You are trying to make corrections by manipulating a constant value. For a given load and speed site there is a constant value. When adjusting your airflow signal for example you change the site the stock ECU is looking to to fuel and ignite the mixture. IF you "skip" some because you go too far in your adjustments it will be out of spec and ignore your settings. It will revert to learning them and rescale its own parameters again.
If any one has any questions feel free to ask. This a technical subject and i tried to be as lamen as possible so that ALL can understand. That is why i use quotation marks and terms such as those described above. If anyone is confused i would be more than happy to reiterate for you.

from what i read perf, are u sayin u can tune the msp with a piggyback but only within a set parameter??

 

[igdrasil]

Yes you have a great idea. Check out the info on the MPI thread. It covers what we do to run open loop type mode.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

Yeah well, i figured it when I did a reset in the ECU, 1st day, car was running pig rich because of my inline fuel pump(9:1 on the greddy) lots of missfires and stuff, then, after a few days I was getting 10:1, then 11:1 then 12:1 and even 13:1 readings on open loop.
In the mean time, I was able to see how the ECU was fighting the fuel "problem" because it was too rich. Then it got to the point that had control of closed and open loop again.

So, I decided to unplug the Temp sensor, Battery Light was on, and all readings, open and closed loop gave me 2 points, meaning that it was running 11:1 in closed loop and open loop! ALWAYS!

 

[perfworks]

from what i read perf, are u sayin u can tune the msp with a piggyback but only within a set parameter??

Allright i will go over it a little more.
In closed loop you need to be at Stoich. 14.7:1 A/F. Your stock O2 is implimented so that you can maintain this ratio.
In closed loop you have very little room for error. Meaning that your correction values will have to be within "parameters" so that the ecu doesnt see your changes. There is a min and max voltage for each stock load and rpm site.(Analog MAF manipulation) Your piggyback settings will change the site internally (stock ecu) that is used to fuel the motor.
If the O2 and the stock mapping doesnt "make sense" after a prolonged amount of time, the ECU will relearn the new values. It will use your new values as constants and rescale its' original values. Adaptive learning strategies.
If you stay within parameters in closed loop though your open loop operation will be seen as normal.
I'm sorry for not getting to specific but "some" are looking for a free lesson. I have worked very hard to get to the point I am at.
These are facts. This is the way your ECU works. Some say "I have never seen this" Well they will say that because they have a product to sell. Be carefull.

 

[perfworks]

Yeah well, i figured it when I did a reset in the ECU, 1st day, car was running pig rich because of my inline fuel pump(9:1 on the greddy) lots of missfires and stuff, then, after a few days I was getting 10:1, then 11:1 then 12:1 and even 13:1 readings on open loop.
In the mean time, I was able to see how the ECU was fighting the fuel "problem" because it was too rich. Then it got to the point that had control of closed and open loop again.

So, I decided to unplug the Temp sensor, Battery Light was on, and all readings, open and closed loop gave me 2 points, meaning that it was running 11:1 in closed loop and open loop! ALWAYS!

You mean CEL was on.
Were you getting this on a WB or your greddy?

 

[perfworks]

I know I have 1,000s of pulls on the dyno tuning cars. Maybe there are few other people here that have really done tuning both on and off of the dyno.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

Tuning requires alot more than just a strap on the dyno and a WOT pull.
More importantly is knowing what the value means when we input it into each "box".
Some "tuners" dont know what they are actually doing to the car while adjusting parameters. They just add or subract till they think it "feels" good.
But this is the case all over. It is very hard to find someone who truely knows what they are doing. Understanding actual events and interpreting sensor function is key.
It would be nice to see a tuning section here on this forum so we can evaluate actual vendor dyno pulls.
Before and after would be ideal.
That way we all can compare products and modifications a little more accurately.