DP as only mod: safe and hassle-free?

Thw fact that these mods are free flowing doesnt mean theyll cause a cel. Cels are coming from improperly designed parts. The intakes maf sizing for example is incorrect on some of the intakes out there. Some of the downpipe don't have cats. This is what is causing cels.
 
numbnuts22715 said:
Were those dynos done with the same temp/humidity? and at the same dyno?


I know exactly what you mean, notmany people go to the track, and the guys that do are pretty much modded out of their assholes.
Click to expand...

Not sure. The way I do it, I usually do exhaust last. And only if I can get a super deal.(nana)
 
numbnuts22715 said:
Thw fact that these mods are free flowing doesnt mean theyll cause a cel. Cels are coming from improperly designed parts. The intakes maf sizing for example is incorrect on some of the intakes out there. Some of the downpipe don't have cats. This is what is causing cels.
Click to expand...

With a sufficiently free-flowing exhaust (ie., no cats) and a small turbo like ours, my understanding is you'll get a CEL or overboost fuel cut or both. It seems logical to me that the intake side will also play a role in this. Also, if the O2 sensor is in the wrong place you'll get a CEL. Correct me if one or more of these points is not true.
 
numbnuts22715 said:
....
a full downpipe(like cp-es, or eventually cobb's) will give great results.
I dont know why youre so scared of the other mods though...
With the AP you can just flash it back to stock... with an intake, it's simple to install and uninstall.
With the EMS it will probably run safer than without it... It drives smoother and better with the AP installed than just the stock ms3..
I'm sure you'll have morep ower with just the downpipe over the intake and ap.

I think you should reinstall your intake, and get the AP again.. It'll drive smoother, and a lot faster.
If you're willing to uninstall the dp in case of warranty work, the intake and AP will only take an extra 30 or sominutes...
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I'm not concerned about the AP per se, that's just a bang-for-the-buck issue for me. I am concerned about the possible effect of a free-flowing intake on pre-turbo EGT's given the high stock Back Pressure-to-Boost ratio (excessively high at 3.5:1 per Christian, www .mazda 3forums.com/index.php?topic=70867.msg2356797#msg2356797). Two causes are the small turbo itself (see http://www.edgeproducts.com/customer_support_article.php?csak=13 for possible issue where turbo is a restriction) and the restrictive downpipe/cats. I have to wonder if increased BPTB ratios / pre-turbo EGT's aren't a significant contributing factor for the turbo problems people have had. Until someone definitively addresses: 1) how the "safe" rich AP map v1.00 can get leaned out significantly in v1.01 and still be "safe" (ie., results of "needed testing"), and 2) why the MS-CAI was taken away from some owners and then pulled off the market, I'll run the stock box.
 
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numbnuts22715 said:
Thw fact that these mods are free flowing doesnt mean theyll cause a cel. Cels are coming from improperly designed parts. The intakes maf sizing for example is incorrect on some of the intakes out there. Some of the downpipe don't have cats. This is what is causing cels.
Click to expand...

the Cels occur because you have changed the amount of air the engine is now able to pump. the maf only registers the amount of air flowing past it. the COMPUTER takes that voltage signal (0-5 volts) and looks up the proper fuel requirements on its preprogramed fuel maps. when the voltage goes over a certain value the computer clips the fuel to save the motor. Whats the solution? A proper tune...... Yes having the stock maf in a larger tube changes the way it reads, this causes issues in itself, but if you could change the MAF transfer to read the correct volume of air the CELS wouldn't occur.

People want to be able to make more power without having to "tune" for it, SOOO they make the maf tubing smaller to decrease the volume of air thus tricking the maf to think its not flowing as much air. given the computers preprogrammed "richness" for fuel, the added air leans out the mix making more power. Problem is people are trying to make 300+whp with a 263hp TUNE.

Freeing up the exhaust and restricting the intake is one way to trick the stock computer to think its not moving more air, but in reality it is. IMO O2 position in the DP is not as crucial as you might think, atleast in all my testing with other turbos it made no difference

the reality is this, if you put bolt on mods to your car, you should tune it, instead of trying to fool the computer or stay within the restriction of the preprogrammed maps.

you need a 300hp "tune" to go with the mods you have to support a 300hp motor and not throw any CELS.

one solution would be to instal a larger MAF that can flow more air, BUT in itself lies another issue. You then have to change the values of the MAF transfer so the computer knows how much fuel to give at a certain MAF voltage.

Turbo cars always respond better to mods than N/A cars, why....... mainly because manufactures want to limit the motors performance for longevity and emmssions.......So when you increas VE its easier to get outside the "safe zone" in the computer programming. You would never see a 20-25whp gain from a N/A car with just a cai.
 
I say forget the DP.

This car tends to smoke when people start removing cats and adding DP.

I suggest CAI+TMIC+Upgraded BOV+Boost set to 18psi..should be good for at least additional 30+hp at the wheels.
It should only take about 2hrs for install/removal for warranty related b.s.

Unless you are planning on going big...in that case, safe is no longer a question of IF...but rather WHEN.

-C
 
i called up s t r e e t u n i t and asked about the the DP. they said it would kill your turbo seals because our stock turbo cant handle the extra backpressure. just FYI
 
hawaii3 said:
i called up s t r e e t u n i t and asked about the the DP. they said it would kill your turbo seals because our stock turbo cant handle the extra backpressure. just FYI
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i was under the impression that the smoking is due to crappy PCV system. smoking will occur until a catch can is installed
 
hawaii3 said:
i called up s t r e e t u n i t and asked about the the DP. they said it would kill your turbo seals because our stock turbo cant handle the extra backpressure. just FYI
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Interesting, I thought I'd be reducing backpressure as long as I ran it with the stock box. I have heard some people speculate that the smoking turbos were the result of insufficient backpressure on the floating turbo seals.
 
hawaii3 said:
i called up s t r e e t u n i t and asked about the the DP. they said it would kill your turbo seals because our stock turbo cant handle the extra backpressure. just FYI
Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense. A new downpipe is going to REDUCE backpressure, which is what you want with a turbocharged motor.
 
(no)(blah):rolleyes:(braindead(screwy)

Where are you guys getting your info from...? (huh)

The MS3 turbos leak oil which cause smoke...with and without the OEM DP. There is no set range in affected VINs; its a hit or miss. FACT: Hitachi-Warner the maker of our turbos had a bad batch of turbos with bad seals that were installed on our cars. It has nothing to do with installing a free flowing DP. The reason the smoke disappears with the OEM DP is due to the 2 catalytic converters that burn the oil off before the tailpipe. In addition, if you have a bad turbo, you WILL eventually smoke with the OEM DP.

desperado-c said:
Maybe they mean you'll over-spin the turbo and increase backpressure that way?
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Turbo does not over-spin with a DP... It spikes due to the free flowing nature of the DP.
Turbos will over-spin with a leaky OEM BPV and leaky intake track.

Listers said:
i was under the impression that the smoking is due to crappy PCV system. smoking will occur until a catch can is installed
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It is speculated that our cars have crappy PVC systems and on a few occasions, light smoking MS3s have found relief with a catch can. But there is a big difference between a smoking turbo and oil in the intake manifold. And a few MS3 still smoke after a catch can install. Regarding the PVC system, if you use a high quality oil and chage it regularly, you won't have any issues.

I'm at 20K miles, race my car 4 times a month, and its a daily driver...no smoke, no catch can, and full TBE...no smoke!!!
(knocking on wood (lol2))
 
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I think my problem is the pcv issue~ bc it only does it so random!

but i love the powere i got from this! it was worth it!!!
 
WOW....... Likes pigs looking at a wrist watch........

A dp causes no harm in itself........now if the exhaust FLOWS alot more and the manufacturer had depended on that restriction for turbo control, this could cause boost creep and spike........oh and noise. However if your turbo seals are leaking....... you have a bad turbo, nothing more, nothing less.
Oil in the intake tract is NORMAL for all cars, thus the reason for having a PCV system........... EXCESSIVE oil means you got issues. Whats excessive......... well that depends on the car, driving habits, oil changes, etc, etc.............. Its safe to say though, that if you pour oil out of the IC or any of the intake tubes, thats excessive.

Hawaii3, i suggest you call up SU tell the idiot on the other end of the line he is an idiot...................
 
I've gotten bum scoop from SU on a few occasions as well so this is of no surprise. Tell them to suck a cock for me as well!
 
im not trying to start anything or seal a thread! but if u got a bum turbo seal it will smoke all the time! under boost and under vacuum! most of these cars with down pipes are only doing it at ideal!

well at least mine and like 4 others around my area are only doing it after a few mins of ideal!
 
bmman93 said:
im not trying to start anything or seal a thread! but if u got a bum turbo seal it will smoke all the time! under boost and under vacuum! most of these cars with down pipes are only doing it at ideal!

well at least mine and like 4 others around my area are only doing it after a few mins of ideal!
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That might be because the leak is small right now... The concentration of oil per exhaust is higher at idle than WOT. Plus when you WOT, you increase the back pressure, helping the seals seal...

Some MS3 start smoking at idle and eventually smoke all the time as the seal fails...

Could also be the whole catch can issue that some MS3 experience...

You would have to evaluate each car individually...
 
AutoXRacer said:
(no)(blah):rolleyes:(braindead(screwy)

Where are you guys getting your info from...? (huh)
....

Turbo does not over-spin with a DP... It spikes due to the free flowing nature of the DP.
Turbos will over-spin with a leaky OEM BPV and leaky intake track.

....

I'm at 20K miles, race my car 4 times a month, and its a daily driver...no smoke, no catch can, and full TBE...no smoke!!!
(knocking on wood (lol2))
Click to expand...

Point taken, sort of. Of course a freer-flowing DP doesn't strictly cause overspinning. But, as 4Banger points out, it can allow it to happen where a more restrictive DP would have limited it. And what is spiking but a brief period of overspin, ie., the turbo spinning faster than the boost target. If the turbo is spinning faster than intended it will increase backpressure and consequently temperature and potentially damage the engine.

I don't think is necessarily the case or the cause of smoking turbos, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility. Oh, geez, looking at my wrist watch tells me it's past this piggy's lunch time.
 
desperado-c said:
Point taken, sort of. Of course a freer-flowing DP doesn't strictly cause overspinning. But, as 4Banger points out, it can allow it to happen where a more restrictive DP would have limited it. And what is spiking but a brief period of overspin, ie., the turbo spinning faster than the boost target. If the turbo is spinning faster than intended it will increase backpressure and consequently temperature and potentially damage the engine.

I don't think is necessarily the case or the cause of smoking turbos, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility. Oh, geez, looking at my wrist watch tells me it's past this piggy's lunch time.
Click to expand...


Umm Boost spikes occur when the wastegate is not large enough or more so when the watsegate is slow to react...... Why would the wastegate be slow to react, well because we have electronically control boost controllers programmed in with strict guidelines to secure a boost target, When the turbo is able to make boost FASTER than what the original programming was designed for, the control reacts slow, thus giving boost spikes.

Overspinning a turbo occurs when either the turbo is spooling and an obstruction closes off the intake side of the turbo thus creating a vacuume and it allows the turbo to freespin, Or you are demanding to much flow from the turbo. You could have a wastgate failure and pop a IC coupler and this would also allow a turbo to over spin.

My 50trim turbo on the SVO was probably close to overspinning since i had all the signs that the turbo was out of steam and the motor WANTED more...... i set the boost at 28psi, by 5500rpm the boost slowly falls to 24psi by 6500rpm. the turbo was just to small. Even precision told me over the phone to stop what i was doing .......i needed more compressor.

You could get a boost spike from having a wastegate fail. the turbo would be in a free state to boost as much as it can. this could happen as low as 3000 rpm.....
 
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