Brake failure - totalled my MS3

[fourthmeal]

I have a question:

Did you or did you not turn off the DSC/TCS feature before you went racing?

The DSC button can be pressed before starting the car, effectively disabling all intervention systems, and presumably ABS. You'll know you've done it correctly because the traction light as well as the DSC light will be lit on your dash in yellow.

If this was pressed before racing, and you had to pull an emergency braking maneuver, this should force the computer into running like a standard brake system: which is to say that no brake-force distribution, no skid-control, no traction control, no yaw control, etc. At this point, the standard brakes (which are cross-linked for safety, in case a line is broken or other troubles) should pull the vehicle to a stop QUICK...perhaps skidding those slicks and eating a rotor, but it would have dropped anchor.

I know this is all terribly past-tense and I apologize for making assumptive questions after such an event, but honestly it could have saved the situation and I think you should know!

 

[Chicoloco]

wow damn that's crazy man. Glad you are okay.

 

[GDorris]

I have a question:

Did you or did you not turn off the DSC/TCS feature before you went racing?

The DSC button can be pressed before starting the car, effectively disabling all intervention systems, and presumably ABS. You'll know you've done it correctly because the traction light as well as the DSC light will be lit on your dash in yellow.

If this was pressed before racing, and you had to pull an emergency braking maneuver, this should force the computer into running like a standard brake system: which is to say that no brake-force distribution, no skid-control, no traction control, no yaw control, etc. At this point, the standard brakes (which are cross-linked for safety, in case a line is broken or other troubles) should pull the vehicle to a stop QUICK...perhaps skidding those slicks and eating a rotor, but it would have dropped anchor.

I know this is all terribly past-tense and I apologize for making assumptive questions after such an event, but honestly it could have saved the situation and I think you should know!

Good question - yes, DSC was disengaged. BTW, DSC does not effect traction control AFAIK.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Wow, sorry about your loss... Glad you're OK.

I noticed you meantioned Hawk brakes... I will never put those brakes on any of my cars ever again!! They are way too aggressive and eat up rotors like nothing. Those pads are not recommended for daily street use since they have a high rate of wear. They brake awesome, but need to be inspected frequently due to high rate of wear of pad and rotor...

Lesson, I would stick with stock brake pads or a milder pad...

I put those on my previous car (Miata) and I assumed they would last at least a year... 8 months later, my rear rotor was half its thickness and the hawk pad was almost to its rivets on the inner pad.

Since then I've only used OEM Mazda pads and have never been happier...the stockers handle autocross and track days very well...

 

[GDorris]

Wow, sorry about your loss... Glad you're OK.

I noticed you meantioned Hawk brakes... I will never put those brakes on any of my cars ever again!! They are way too aggressive and eat up rotors like nothing. Those pads are not recommended for daily street use since they have a high rate of wear. They brake awesome, but need to be inspected frequently due to high rate of wear of pad and rotor...

Lesson, I would stick with stock brake pads or a milder pad...

I put those on my previous car (Miata) and I assumed they would last at least a year... 8 months later, my rear rotor was half its thickness and the hawk pad was almost to its rivets on the inner pad.

Since then I've only used OEM Mazda pads and have never been happier...the stockers handle autocross and track days very well...

OEM are fine for the street but the Hawk HP+ were excellent for the track. They lasted 3.5 hard track days plus about 6,000 miles. Not bad - if I had only checked the pad wear. My fault, not the pads'.

 

[Craighjr]

OEM are fine for the street but the Hawk HP+ were excellent for the track. They lasted 3.5 hard track days plus about 6,000 miles. Not bad - if I had only checked the pad wear. My fault, not the pads'.

No what he is saying is that when you start the car and hold the dsc button it turns off dsc and trac control. Abs stays active in this situation, but the other electronic nannys are shut off. Originally I had said that abs should be off on the track. Do you dissagree with that? You say your heavy on the abs for 3.5 track days caused the pad failure but why allow so much abs intervention. You have way more track experiance than I do so I'm just asking for curiositys sake not trying to bash you.

 

[AutoXRacer]

OEM are fine for the street but the Hawk HP+ were excellent for the track. They lasted 3.5 hard track days plus about 6,000 miles. Not bad - if I had only checked the pad wear. My fault, not the pads'.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the Hawks... Their performance is amazing...but the dust is horrible and they chew up rotors like crazy. Definitely need to be on top of them...

Glad your OK though... Whats next...? How will you recover from this?
Will you buy another MS3?

 

[GDorris]

No what he is saying is that when you start the car and hold the dsc button it turns off dsc and trac control. Abs stays active in this situation, but the other electronic nannys are shut off. Originally I had said that abs should be off on the track. Do you dissagree with that? You say your heavy on the abs for 3.5 track days caused the pad failure but why allow so much abs intervention. You have way more track experiance than I do so I'm just asking for curiositys sake not trying to bash you.

Traction control is not an issue on a road course as it might be on a drag strip. Call me lazy, but I lean heavily on ABS at the track. I know that skilled drivers can threshold brake better than ABS and I let them. For me, I like tromping on the brakes and letting the nannies figure out the quickest way to slow me down. The downside is the uneven brake wear and the unintended consequences..... The brake performance on these cars, with high performance pads and fluid, is excellent. Just please watch your inner pad wear. All that being said, if ABS had not been active, dump mode would not have kicked in and I would not have crashed. Hindsight...

 

[GDorris]

I have a question:

Did you or did you not turn off the DSC/TCS feature before you went racing?

The DSC button can be pressed before starting the car, effectively disabling all intervention systems, and presumably ABS. You'll know you've done it correctly because the traction light as well as the DSC light will be lit on your dash in yellow.

If this was pressed before racing, and you had to pull an emergency braking maneuver, this should force the computer into running like a standard brake system: which is to say that no brake-force distribution, no skid-control, no traction control, no yaw control, etc. At this point, the standard brakes (which are cross-linked for safety, in case a line is broken or other troubles) should pull the vehicle to a stop QUICK...perhaps skidding those slicks and eating a rotor, but it would have dropped anchor.

I know this is all terribly past-tense and I apologize for making assumptive questions after such an event, but honestly it could have saved the situation and I think you should know!

Just so you know I was paying attention, ABS is not defeatable, no matter what tune you play on the DSC button.

 

[racekar]

how many mm of pad did you have left on outer pad?

 

[racekar]

ive used hp plus pads on track days and on my wrx they lasted 3 30 minute sessions and had less than 5 mm of pad left by end of day. and faded. Im surprised that your hp plus lasted you that long. I beleive the wrx is about the same weight as the ms3.

also from your brake pics how much pad did you have left? youre suppose to have at least 5mm of pad when you go to an event.... it looks kind of low?

 

[fourthmeal]

Just so you know I was paying attention, ABS is not defeatable, no matter what tune you play on the DSC button.

I absolutely know you are paying attention, but I'm curious if you just pushed the button while running (thus disabling a portion of the system) or if you disengaged it fully while performing startup. I'm trying to piece the inner workings of this system together, and what each "mode", for lack of a better term, does. So to reiterate and confirm, you held the button down, started the car, and observed both the traction and the DSC light off on the dash before going for a run? Or did you press the button while underway, illuminating only the DSC light? Thanks for the attention to this, I'm dying to know.

 

[ZooZoom]

I would also very much like to know the specifics of 4thmeal's question. I have tracked my MS3 4 times now with zero braking issues. First 3 times were on the stock pads (same set). Last track day was on Hawk Ceramics. Actually, those aren't great track pads. They brake as hard as stock (or a tad better) under normal driving conditions. But they were prone to fading fast under heat load.

I'm going back to the track next weekend at Spring Mountain in NV. I just installed a new set of Carbotech Bobcat pads. They are probably somewhere in between Hawk HPS and HP+. Under some "test" conditions on the road they sure do bite hard. But man, these Bobcats love to squeal.....LOUDLY!

So far, at each prior track event, I only depressed the DSC Off button once the engine was started, usually in the hot pit line. This time around, I plan to do the DSC/TCS Off routine by pushing the button with the ignition key in the Start position before cranking the engine.

I am curious if anyone knows.....with some evidence of certainty.....that disabling both DSC/TCS still leaves the ABS system in play?

Either way, I will be changing my brake pads back to either the stockers or Ceramics after next weekend. I simply can't stand the constant racket of squeaks & squeals every time I tap the brake pedal. It doesn't seem to care if I brake gently or firmly......the Bobcats still roar!

 

[GDorris]

I absolutely know you are paying attention, but I'm curious if you just pushed the button while running (thus disabling a portion of the system) or if you disengaged it fully while performing startup. I'm trying to piece the inner workings of this system together, and what each "mode", for lack of a better term, does. So to reiterate and confirm, you held the button down, started the car, and observed both the traction and the DSC light off on the dash before going for a run? Or did you press the button while underway, illuminating only the DSC light? Thanks for the attention to this, I'm dying to know.

Sorry I did not pick up on your question sooner. I did the simple push button DSC off. I was ignorant of the more complete defeat.

 

[dcomiskey]

No what he is saying is that when you start the car and hold the dsc button it turns off dsc and trac control. Abs stays active in this situation, but the other electronic nannys are shut off. Originally I had said that abs should be off on the track. Do you dissagree with that? You say your heavy on the abs for 3.5 track days caused the pad failure but why allow so much abs intervention. You have way more track experiance than I do so I'm just asking for curiositys sake not trying to bash you.

I don't think it's a good idea AT ALL to turn off ABS at the track if that's not what you are used to. You are asking for a hell of a lot of trouble in that situation. I think the problem was simply that he didn't check the pads as often as he should have.

Also, the HP+ on the street? I wouldn't run those.

 

[dcomiskey]

ive used hp plus pads on track days and on my wrx they lasted 3 30 minute sessions and had less than 5 mm of pad left by end of day. and faded. Im surprised that your hp plus lasted you that long. I beleive the wrx is about the same weight as the ms3.

also from your brake pics how much pad did you have left? youre suppose to have at least 5mm of pad when you go to an event.... it looks kind of low?

I think (if they are even available) you guys should try the Hawk Blues instead of the HP+ for track use. MUCH better pad.

 

[LASERBLUE135]

unreal video! you can see your car get tossed through the air like a toy! God bless, man.

 

[fourthmeal]

No problem. Though I am not 100% certain, I do believe this may have helped you. When I perform this full defeat that I mentioned, the car behaves "dumb", but controllable entirely by ME. Including some wicked braking maneuvers (under a closed course with a professional driver yadda yadda), I've seen it pretty much act like an intervention-free car.

I'll try to get much more concrete evidence on what this full defeat really does in the future, and I'll pass the info to you if it would help in another track outing. I'm thinking it would, as long as the racer was willing to give up stability control (most race cars don't have it), in exchange for full control of the car's attitude around a track.

Sorry I did not pick up on your question sooner. I did the simple push button DSC off. I was ignorant of the more complete defeat.

 

[Tom03es]

WOW!

Here's what I did on my old track car- I had a set of Duralast (Autozone brand) pads to use getting to and from the track. Once at the track, I swapped to a set of Hawk Blue race compound pads. Having a set of pads like these FORCES you to not run them on the street and gives you the opportunity to inspect them after the track day is over. It's a little more wrench time in the paddock, but if you're swapping wheels anyway, it's not that much more effort to open up the brake calipers and swap pads AND lube the brake caliper. Plus the Hawk Blues (don't know if they are available for the MS3) work GREAT on track- although their dust can be very harsh on paint and if you are stuffing your track wheels back in the interior of your car for the ride home, inhaling that stuff can't be good for you either.

So in summary, if you decide to get back on track with your new MS3, my suggestion is to get a set of track only pads to go with your track only tires.

 

[Falconx84]

as far as the tcs/dsc full defeat and abs..... I believe you cannot fully defeat the abs/brake assist. I think I remember reading somewhere that it only raises the limit at which abs will engage. For lack of a better reference, with tcs/dsc on abs would come in to play at say level 5 and with it tcs/dsc disable, it may come in at like a level 8, giving you better threshold braking

(disclaimer: level 5/8 was just pulled outa my ass, it is not a true reference at all, just something to try and quantify what I'm saying)