Questions for the experienced

[Drumraven12]

Hello all!

I am new to the community and the forums and the owner of a 2008 silver ms3. This is my first turbo charged car (minus a 92 mr2 I had for just 3months years ago ) to own for any period of time and in turn makes it the first one I have tried doing any work on.

I have been reading through all of these forums and have to say after so many years working on n/a engines you guys have me hesitant. Let me clarify also the n/a engines I have worked on are limited to an old 68 ford truck 360 and a 1991 mustang so I am by no means a mechanic.

Sorry about the long intro Questions:

I have added an AEM cai a ghl cat back and a turbosmart dual port bov...

I have really enjoyed the even small gains these gave and mainly the slight exhaust note and the sound from the engine more than any real power.
Am I hurting my engine with these mods??

More importantly I want to continue to keep moding my ms3 but not at the expense of hurting the car...

So the real question is what mods are safe or how far can I go before I start to hurt the engine?

I am not worried about making "massive" power but additional is not a bad thing.... i dont "need" big numbers or giant boost numbers but would like to add as much power as possible while protecting the car.

I appreciate anyones time or advice.

 

[mortimersnerd]

Other will likely disagree with me, but this car has great power as is, and you've tapped much of what can be done safely. A test pipe (deleting the second cat) would give additional gains without much impact, other than emissions (the reason I don't run one). I'd seriously consider spending the money on handling upgrades. This car handles well overall, but putting in better shocks will make the car dramatically faster, and a matched set of springs will do even more.

 

[Metal MP5]

I'd say that you start hurting the engine when you start messing with the amount of air/fuel that enters the engine.

By that i mostly mean changing the turbo's boost pressure. If you stay at stock boost, and only "unlock" power by adding exhaust and intake, i really don't see you running into problems.

One thing you can do that would, i think, get you some very noticeable gains, would be to switch from a cat back to a full exhaust. Replacing the exhaust right at the turbo all the way back will definitely get your some more power without messing too much with the engine's safety. You get rid of the cats and add a down pipe that is most likely designed to flow better

just keep your stock parts in case you need to go get some work done at the dealer and if you have emissions testing in your area

 

[Drumraven12]

Other will likely disagree with me, but this car has great power as is, and you've tapped much of what can be done safely. A test pipe (deleting the second cat) would give additional gains without much impact, other than emissions (the reason I don't run one). I'd seriously consider spending the money on handling upgrades. This car handles well overall, but putting in better shocks will make the car dramatically faster, and a matched set of springs will do even more.

Thank you for response... I do have plans for shock upgrades as well as tires and rims which is probobly next.

For refrence the next upgrades I am looking at are guages, downpipe, upgraded intercooler.... and then the problem is I dont know if I need to invest in some engine managment at that point?? boost controller???

This is where its very evident how green I am with turbo charged vehicles.... does the boost controll only limit boost or just increase it?

By the way what do you suggest for suspension upgrades?

Thank you again

 

[Drumraven12]

I'd say that you start hurting the engine when you start messing with the amount of air/fuel that enters the engine.

By that i mostly mean changing the turbo's boost pressure. If you stay at stock boost, and only "unlock" power by adding exhaust and intake, i really don't see you running into problems.

One thing you can do that would, i think, get you some very noticeable gains, would be to switch from a cat back to a full exhaust. Replacing the exhaust right at the turbo all the way back will definitely get your some more power without messing too much with the engine's safety. You get rid of the cats and add a down pipe that is most likely designed to flow better

just keep your stock parts in case you need to go get some work done at the dealer and if you have emissions testing in your area

Thank you... but dosent adding a downpipe then require some engine managment?? ecu needs a flash?? or is that a step before

 

[MSMS3]

Downpipe does not require an ECU remapping. See sig below. Your intake mod was a solid decision. Make sure you have the air straightener and that it is installed correctly, as this has a big influence on reducing turbulence in the intake and getting accurate measurement from your mass air flow (MAF) sensor.

Your CBE was for sound, because the stock CBE actually flows better than the maximum output rate of the K04 turbo on this engine, so no gains are to be made there until you get above 300 whp with other mods, which is very hard to do on the stock turbo anyway.

And the dual port BOV may not prove to be a good choice for power, as this engine needs to have 100% of the boost release going back into the intake. The BOV should be 100% recirc, running as a true BPV to get a proper air/fuel match on this engine due to it being a MAF system. Releasing metered air to atmosphere results in air being lost to atmosphere that the ECU has already sent a signal to the injectors to spray into the combustion chamber through the intake valves.

The bottle neck on the exhaust side needs to be addressed to take advantage of the increased flow on the intake side. The bottle neck is upstream of the CBE. It is the stock downpipe and the two "low flow" cats, one built into the downpipe and the other one, the secondary cat, is located between the downpipe and your CBE.

You can replace the second cat with a racepipe or test pipe (straight pipe with no cat) and pick up a few horses. You can replace the downpipe and secondary cat with a catted or catless downpipe/race pipe combo and really pick up some power.

Note that the stock CBE can be connected to the aftermarket catted or catless dp/rp with excellent flow results. Again, it flows better than the output of the turbo, IMHO, so any change to the CBE will just change sound on this particular car.

You absolutely will need one thing if you address the exhaust side ahead of the CBE: a boost gauge. Increased exhaust flow will tend to raise boost levels by 1-2 psi (explanation is beyond the scope of this reply) and could push you close to maxing out the wastgate's ability to bleed off excessive boost. That could result in unsafe boost levels. I say "could" because this has not happened to me. As long as your boost stays below 17.5 psi or thereabouts you will have no safety issues, IMHO on the stock ECU.

In warm weather you should be fine, but must still monitor boost. Always. In cold weather when there is more oxygen in the air mass, you may run into fuel/load cut, a hard slapdown in power as you come up on boost in the 3-4k rpm range and sometimes again close to 5.5k rpm. Fuel/load cut can be minimized by keeping boost at 17 psi or lower. There are ways to do this that do not require an ECU map modification.

A second cheap tool I'd recommend is a simple stopwatch. You can tell if your mods are improving performance and also tell how your car is performing if you know your reference range for wide open throttle acceleration from 60 mph to various higher speeds. I select 60 mph as a beginning point because by then you are in third gear or higher. The ecu holds back power in the lower two gears and it is very difficult to know if mods are making any improvements if you start timing in the lower gears. Plus, it is very hard to get consistent launches in this car if you are trying to time runs from a dead still standing start dig.

Hope I did not confuse you. Welcome to the community. Go slow and carefully, measuring each change, making sure you did your install correctly before moving to the next one, and enjoy your modding experience.

 

[Drumraven12]

Downpipe does not require an ECU remapping. See sig below. Your intake mod was a solid decision. Make sure you have the air straightener and that it is installed correctly, as this has a big influence on reducing turbulence in the intake and getting accurate measurement from your mass air flow (MAF) sensor.

Your CBE was for sound, because the stock CBE actually flows better than the maximum output rate of the K04 turbo on this engine, so no gains are to be made there until you get above 300 whp with other mods, which is very hard to do on the stock turbo anyway.

And the dual port BOV may not prove to be a good choice for power, as this engine needs to have 100% of the boost release going back into the intake. The BOV should be 100% recirc, running as a true BPV to get a proper air/fuel match on this engine due to it being a MAF system. Releasing metered air to atmosphere results in air being lost to atmosphere that the ECU has already sent a signal to the injectors to spray into the combustion chamber through the intake valves.

The bottle neck on the exhaust side needs to be addressed to take advantage of the increased flow on the intake side. The bottle neck is upstream of the CBE. It is the stock downpipe and the two "low flow" cats, one built into the downpipe and the other one, the secondary cat, is located between the downpipe and your CBE.

You can replace the second cat with a racepipe or test pipe (straight pipe with no cat) and pick up a few horses. You can replace the downpipe and secondary cat with a catted or catless downpipe/race pipe combo and really pick up some power.

Note that the stock CBE can be connected to the aftermarket catted or catless dp/rp with excellent flow results. Again, it flows better than the output of the turbo, IMHO, so any change to the CBE will just change sound on this particular car.

You absolutely will need one thing if you address the exhaust side ahead of the CBE: a boost gauge. Increased exhaust flow will tend to raise boost levels by 1-2 psi (explanation is beyond the scope of this reply) and could push you close to maxing out the wastgate's ability to bleed off excessive boost. That could result in unsafe boost levels. I say "could" because this has not happened to me. As long as your boost stays below 17.5 psi or thereabouts you will have no safety issues, IMHO on the stock ECU.

In warm weather you should be fine, but must still monitor boost. Always. In cold weather when there is more oxygen in the air mass, you may run into fuel/load cut, a hard slapdown in power as you come up on boost in the 3-4k rpm range and sometimes again close to 5.5k rpm. Fuel/load cut can be minimized by keeping boost at 17 psi or lower. There are ways to do this that do not require an ECU map modification.

A second cheap tool I'd recommend is a simple stopwatch. You can tell if your mods are improving performance and also tell how your car is performing if you know your reference range for wide open throttle acceleration from 60 mph to various higher speeds. I select 60 mph as a beginning point because by then you are in third gear or higher. The ecu holds back power in the lower two gears and it is very difficult to know if mods are making any improvements if you start timing in the lower gears. Plus, it is very hard to get consistent launches in this car if you are trying to time runs from a dead still standing start dig.

Hope I did not confuse you. Welcome to the community. Go slow and carefully, measuring each change, making sure you did your install correctly before moving to the next one, and enjoy your modding experience.

Thank you MSMS3 and everyone else for your responses.

You cleared up quit a bit for me... I know I do want to keep at least one cat to be street legal if I remember correct thats what is needed here in Florida.

I appreciate all the info on boost as the more I read the more I see about boost creep or leak and while I am enjoying the modding part the car is already quick so I dont want to blow up my engine for the sake of a few tenths.

I am ordering my boost guages and cluster today as well as the rear engine mount ... cant decide to go wheels and rims or downpipe and intercooler next?

Again thank you all for the welcome to the forums and for the advice

 

[Saskatchewan17]

Also note that this car benefits greatly from 'driveability' mods like a rear motor mount, transmission mount, short shifter/shifter bushings, ect...

 

[onelsono]

im loving this thread. ive been deiciding wether i should begin modding my car again also. would anyone know how bad launch control or ffs is ito it. i had both when i was tuned and loved it. you ofcoarse need an ap for this.

 

[Drumraven12]

Well did some light testing tonight...

Seems the more I read the more confusing it can become... working on an old n/a 360 is sooo much easier lol.

I debated so much about my bov (turbosmart dual port) before I got it and even when I went in to buy it I talked a long time to the guys at the shop and they assured me it would not hurt my engine. I put all my mods on at once when I did them so tonight was the first time for me to test with the bov on full recurculate ( like stock)

I could not tell any diffrence in the drive? i did notice the little "backfire" i would get from first to second was gone but I only ever got that at very low rpms of course I also noticed that there was no sound and hearing the turbo spool was only on heavy acceleration. Now granted the "whoosh" sound is nice and the intake seems louder when I was running 60 recurculate and 40 atmoshphere but the sound is something I dont "need".

My question still remains: The whoosh is nice and because of the sound it seems faster but I know this is false the real question is "am I hurting my car by having some of the pressure release to atmosphere?"

Now I am still struggaling with my next steps:

I am not worried about upping my boost the car is quick as is but do I need something to control the boost after a downpipe and an intercooler ( with new tubes also).... the more I read about boost creep I worry that more mods push me closer to boost spikes?

I am for sure getting the motor mounts as well as new lighter rims no effect on the engine so no questions about dmg there also my boost guage should be in this weekend but I still have to holes to fill and not sure what to fill them with.

As you can read I am really really green with turbos but I also love to tinker and mod so I seek your already given wisdom.... this is also my daily driver just crossed 28k and the warranty died 2months ago.

forgive my spelling =)

 

[Saskatchewan17]

**** it! Build the motor and go big turbo. A Garrett GT42 shall suffice.

It's the bad boy on the left.

I just wouldn't be worried about damaging or hurting your engine. Take good care of it and it will take good care of you. But there are a few rules to abide by if you want to put your mind at ease about the safety of your motor:
1.) Keep up with proper maintanance (I shouldn't have to mention this. Use a good synthetic oil and change no later than 5k miles.)
2.) DON'T BOOST THE CAR UNDER 3000 RPMS! Also, don't put too much load on the engine at any given time. Boosting under 3k is asking for trouble. This puts way too much stress on the rods and is the reason most people snap them; part throttle boost. My rule is I never boost untill 3k and never go WOT until after 3,500. You have six gears to row through, use them.
3.) My personal rule, that I KNOW others will strongly disagree with. Avoid any boost altering mods. An MBC or tuning for higher boost is not good for the little K04. Some will say I undersestimate the turbo, but I just don't think it's good for any more than 15 PSI. I'd also chalk up a catless exhaust in this category. Creates bad boost spikes of 20+ PSI (I'm prepared for your rebuttal MSMS3!).
4.) Don't worry so much about the damn motor! It is made to be driven. And this car coincidentally loves to have the nuts driven off of it. Just don't load up the engine and shift at 5,500 RPM to prevent roasting the turbo and because the car won't make much more power past that.

That's about all I have to say really... Just take care of her and do what you want mod-wise.

 

[Metal MP5]

And the dual port BOV may not prove to be a good choice for power, as this engine needs to have 100% of the boost release going back into the intake. The BOV should be 100% recirc, running as a true BPV to get a proper air/fuel match on this engine due to it being a MAF system. Releasing metered air to atmosphere results in air being lost to atmosphere that the ECU has already sent a signal to the injectors to spray into the combustion chamber through the intake valves

On my mazdaspeed protege, i had a custom front mount intercooler and all piping done and had a turbosmart dualport bov recirculating in the intake. I got tired of the turkey sound it made and decided to block the recirculation port on the bov and i took a metal saw, cut all my intake and post-fmic tubes, moved the maf closer to the throttle body and put the bov between the fmic and the maf to have a blow through setup. (this created the most awesome bov sound i had ever heard. i love turbosmart)

I remember reading that some people had problems with blown MAF sensors after doing that but it worked very well on my setup. I remember buying a used one off of someone on the forum and installed it right after the air filter so that if something happened to the one on the pressured side, i could just disconnect it and connect the one before the turbo

Now, after my car was stolen i got depressed lol and really stayed out of the modding world, off the forums n stuff so honestly, i don't know much about my own car right now lol so i am not sure if this works fine with the MS6 and MS3, but if your concern about the bpv or bov are venting measured air into atmosphere and screwing up air/fuel mixtures, maybe moving the MAF around can help

But this car's ecu seems to control sooo much that maybe it's not a good idea at all. The Protege was really easy to play with

 

[Metal MP5]

GT42 are for amateurs lol go all out or stay home

**** it! Build the motor and go big turbo. A Garrett GT42 shall suffice.

It's the bad boy on the left.

I just wouldn't be worried about damaging or hurting your engine. Take good care of it and it will take good care of you. But there are a few rules to abide by if you want to put your mind at ease about the safety of your motor:
1.) Keep up with proper maintanance (I shouldn't have to mention this. Use a good synthetic oil and change no later than 5k miles.)
2.) DON'T BOOST THE CAR UNDER 3000 RPMS! Also, don't put too much load on the engine at any given time. Boosting under 3k is asking for trouble. This puts way too much stress on the rods and is the reason most people snap them; part throttle boost. My rule is I never boost untill 3k and never go WOT until after 3,500. You have six gears to row through, use them.
3.) My personal rule, that I KNOW others will strongly disagree with. Avoid any boost altering mods. An MBC or tuning for higher boost is not good for the little K04. Some will say I undersestimate the turbo, but I just don't think it's good for any more than 15 PSI. I'd also chalk up a catless exhaust in this category. Creates bad boost spikes of 20+ PSI (I'm prepared for your rebuttal MSMS3!).
4.) Don't worry so much about the damn motor! It is made to be driven. And this car coincidentally loves to have the nuts driven off of it. Just don't load up the engine and shift at 5,500 RPM to prevent roasting the turbo and because the car won't make much more power past that.

That's about all I have to say really... Just take care of her and do what you want mod-wise.

 

[coyfish]

No emissions test in florida.

 

[coololddude]

As to how much you can do; If you do a clean install, it really amounts to how much you can afford. On the Hot-Rod Power Tour they have cars modified to the Max+. These cars are driven hundreds of miles without problems. Your warranty is already history, so mod untill you barf!!!

 

[MSMS3]

**** it! Build the motor and go big turbo. A Garrett GT42 shall suffice.

It's the bad boy on the left.

I just wouldn't be worried about damaging or hurting your engine. Take good care of it and it will take good care of you. But there are a few rules to abide by if you want to put your mind at ease about the safety of your motor:
1.) Keep up with proper maintanance (I shouldn't have to mention this. Use a good synthetic oil and change no later than 5k miles.)
2.) DON'T BOOST THE CAR UNDER 3000 RPMS! Also, don't put too much load on the engine at any given time. Boosting under 3k is asking for trouble. This puts way too much stress on the rods and is the reason most people snap them; part throttle boost. My rule is I never boost untill 3k and never go WOT until after 3,500. You have six gears to row through, use them.
3.) My personal rule, that I KNOW others will strongly disagree with. Avoid any boost altering mods. An MBC or tuning for higher boost is not good for the little K04. Some will say I undersestimate the turbo, but I just don't think it's good for any more than 15 PSI. I'd also chalk up a catless exhaust in this category. Creates bad boost spikes of 20+ PSI (I'm prepared for your rebuttal MSMS3!). 4.) Don't worry so much about the damn motor! It is made to be driven. And this car coincidentally loves to have the nuts driven off of it. Just don't load up the engine and shift at 5,500 RPM to prevent roasting the turbo and because the car won't make much more power past that.

That's about all I have to say really... Just take care of her and do what you want mod-wise.

Rebuttal moment (lol): Yes, it does produce 20-21 psi spikes with catless dp/rp but they are very transient and boost instantly returns to my "new" normal which is 17. I have not seen any data to suggest that these transient spikes are harmful. However, I don't like them because they frequently lead to the slapdown the ECU gives from fuel/load cut during cool weather. And it also can lead to dangerous boost creep on some cars. I'm not getting creep and wonder if the high flow straight through reso I put in the middle of the rp section to control drone may have added just enough resistance to keep the wastegate from maxing out.

I completely agree with you on other points, especially the need to stay out of boost under 3k rpm and the advice to not go WOT until higher, like 3.5k rpm Going WOT at low rpm seems to be the Achilles Heel of this engine.

As to BOV/BPV I ask OP to just think about what the ECU is trying to do with the data it is receiving. Regardless of how the engine "feels" (feeling matters regarding drivability), feeling doesn't mean diddly squat when it comes to measured performance. Any and all metered air has already had fuel matched to it by the ECU and is destined to be fired into the engine regardless of whether all the matching air gets there or not.

If that air does not get into the engine to go along with the fuel, I don't care what anyone says to the contrary, the mismatch is only going to contribute to making a pig rich AFR even worse. And right after a shift is when you need the air and fuel mixture to be as close to what the ECU expects as possible. Unless the "shop" guys have experience running very high fuel pressure direct injection engines (DISI) with MAF sensor controlled ECU's, and this platform in particular, I'd tend to take that advice with a grain of salt, IMHO.

Another thought on VTA: Read some of the threads on oil catch cans and the contents of what is showing up in those cans -- a lot of fuel, even on cars running full recirc. When we run pig rich, that extra fuel does serve the beneficial purpose of helping to cool down the temps in the combustion chamber. That allows us to run more timing and more power. However this comes at a cost. That is the potential for wash down of the cylinder walls from unburned raw fuel. Fuel is a very poor lubricant. The last thing I'd want to do is add more unburned fuel by running VTA and have it end up getting past the rings, down the cylinder walls and into the PCV system and oil. Just something to think about.

 

[leadf00t]

GT42 are for amateurs lol go all out or stay home

Dam !!!!!!

Mount that bad boy in the hatch !!

 

[Drumraven12]

Rebuttal moment (lol): Yes, it does produce 20-21 psi spikes with catless dp/rp but they are very transient and boost instantly returns to my "new" normal which is 17. I have not seen any data to suggest that these transient spikes are harmful. However, I don't like them because they frequently lead to the slapdown the ECU gives from fuel/load cut during cool weather. And it also can lead to dangerous boost creep on some cars. I'm not getting creep and wonder if the high flow straight through reso I put in the middle of the rp section to control drone may have added just enough resistance to keep the wastegate from maxing out.

I completely agree with you on other points, especially the need to stay out of boost under 3k rpm and the advice to not go WOT until higher, like 3.5k rpm Going WOT at low rpm seems to be the Achilles Heel of this engine.

As to BOV/BPV I ask OP to just think about what the ECU is trying to do with the data it is receiving. Regardless of how the engine "feels" (feeling matters regarding drivability), feeling doesn't mean diddly squat when it comes to measured performance. Any and all metered air has already had fuel matched to it by the ECU and is destined to be fired into the engine regardless of whether all the matching air gets there or not.

If that air does not get into the engine to go along with the fuel, I don't care what anyone says to the contrary, the mismatch is only going to contribute to making a pig rich AFR even worse. And right after a shift is when you need the air and fuel mixture to be as close to what the ECU expects as possible. Unless the "shop" guys have experience running very high fuel pressure direct injection engines (DISI) with MAF sensor controlled ECU's, and this platform in particular, I'd tend to take that advice with a grain of salt, IMHO.

Another thought on VTA: Read some of the threads on oil catch cans and the contents of what is showing up in those cans -- a lot of fuel, even on cars running full recirc. When we run pig rich, that extra fuel does serve the beneficial purpose of helping to cool down the temps in the combustion chamber. That allows us to run more timing and more power. However this comes at a cost. That is the potential for wash down of the cylinder walls from unburned raw fuel. Fuel is a very poor lubricant. The last thing I'd want to do is add more unburned fuel by running VTA and have it end up getting past the rings, down the cylinder walls and into the PCV system and oil. Just something to think about.

I spent the last two days going vta then recirc.... after two full days on both I am sticking with recirc as the care seems to respond better from 3k to 5k rpms this way and I also have no more periodic "pop" in the exhaust now I wish I would have just bought a cheaper recirc valve instead of the dual port but it is better than the stock so no big lose.

Installing my boost gauge this weekend and an earlier response said no emissions test here in florida so next is downpipe and testpipe.... and I would like to go wheels and rims after that but thats another debate with size and weight and then suspension. I really like a full wheel well but dont know weather or not to go 19's and not lower the car or 18's and lower a little and any advice on tested suspension would be nice oh and I am going to pick up engine mount this weekend also not sure what durability to go with.

I like the idea of a short throw shifter but have seen alot of bad reviews with clicking or having a hard time engaging reverse I do not want to make shifting worse for sure whats a good kit to look for?

Again thank you for everyones time and input I will post some pics before long for fun!

 

[Saskatchewan17]

18s and suspension. 19s are just more expensive and tires are more expensive and they don't look that much bigger.

 

[BillTheCat]

No emissions test in florida.

True, but the way our state law is written, deleting a cat is illegal. Technically, even replacing a cat is illegal, unless the cat is defective. But I'd be open to replacing the lo-flow cats on this car with hi-flow cats (i.e. Random Technology) or a hi-flow cat & a test pipe if I were looking at exhaust mods. Because if they get as far as inspecting my cats, I figure I'm already ^&#%ed.

And there's been some rumbling about bringing back the sniffer tests, but making it statewide this time instead of only in specific counties. Remember, the Socialists are in control, and they know what's good for you (and the Earth) better than you do.