Calling all MS3 Owners with smoking Turbos...

Ninkumpoop said:
I haven't checked my production date but I have a smoking '09 Speed3. Only got ~14k miles and it started smoking a couple thousand miles ago. Gonna call several Mazda dealerships nearby and see if any of them are willing to fix for free even though I pretty much completely voided my warranty already :(.
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Sorry to hear it... what are your mods?
 
I found some things out today that you guys might find interesting/helpful on this smoking turbo topic. I too like many other am experiencing this, especially at idle, on my '07 Speed3. Happened just after install of my TurboXS DP. So its obvious to me that this is something inherrent to the design of our cars. So, last week being fustrated with the smoke I found a used K04 on Ebay from an '08 with 10k(at least thats what the listing stated) and a rebuild kit cause I was going to attempt a rebuild myself. A couple of co-workers(twin turbo mustang guys) told me I should hold off and and see this turbo "specialist" that is local first before I attempt it.

I go see this guy today with the ebay K04, he takes a look spins the wheels to check for play and says there's nothing wrong with the turbo. He sees the oil build up on the exhaust side and decides to take is apart anyway just to be sure. We compare old vs new piston rings, no major difference but its obvious that oil has been getting by. His belief is that oil flow back to the oil pan is not right. Basically something is not allowing it to get back and it has nowhere to go except squeezing through the tiny clearance in the piston rings onto the exhaust side. So from his experience(the guys been building turbos over 20 years and has so many turbos in his shop u'd felt like you went to turbo heaven) it can be a blockage at the oil return, return orafice too small, or too much crankcase pressure not allowing gravity flow.

Based on the fact that we know crankcase ventalation is not very good I'm guessing this is the problem with our cars and even though we can add additional catch cans and such what if its not enough of a release??? So my next steps is to somehow figure out what kind of crankcase pressure is present and see what can be done to relieve it. If not that then look at the oil return lines.

But this whole issue is ridiculous for us to be going through. In my opinion this is a Mazda design problem that is hidden by the cat. So those that haven't replaced the DP eventually have cats the clog up, most likely after the warranty is up, and be stuck with the bill. Either way we all have a problem. Guess this is what I get for buying a product affiliated with Ford....lol

Hope my little bit of experience is helpfull.. I'll update if my next steps get me anywhere...in the meantime I'll be smoking like the rest of ya...
 
Hey lzcztq,

Great writeup and explanation. I've always thought this issue has nothing to do with the K04. I had the same "smoking" with Garrett T4 and T04 variations on European turbocharged sport sedans when I went to open catless dp's and rp's. It typically happened when I also upgraded to factory option performance ECU's (like Saab's red ECU) requiring premium fuel and operating at several pounds higher boost.

The best solution I found then was oil catch can, and that seems best now.

There was nothing wrong with those Garrett turbos either. One did finally have a bearing failure at over 100,000 miles, but it got noisy first and permitted diagnosis before failure.

To me, when we have 15+ sometimes close to 20 lbs of boost pushing oil past the oil rings and back into the crankcase, there has to be a very effective crankcase ventillation system. We recirculate back to the intake through the PCV valve. I don't know if PCV valves were ever intended to efficiently deal with the crankcase fumes and gasses that develop from a high boost engine. Federal emission standards require that these gasses be recycled rather than vented as would be the case on a pure racing engine.

Ours PCV operation seems to be marginal and with mods increasing pressure or air/fuel mixture and exhaust flow, the demands get greater. What your turbo specialists are telling you makes sense. They will probably tell you that this is a common problem with other high boost cars regardless of model of car or brand of turbo.

Without cats the previously unburned and then recycled fumes don't have much of a chance to burn again, so under certain conditions we see "smoke."

Personally, I think it is harmless and is much ado about nothing. A catch can will help, and I run one, but don't bother to list it as a mod on my sig because I don't think it enhances performance or protects against damage.

I'd love to know more about what your turbo specialists have to say about this so-called "smoking" problem.
 
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MSMS3

Thanks for your comments. After seeing the thing taken apart and being told how the parts are supposed to work the problem at least makes sense to me as to why we have this situation. Plus talking to a couple of the twin turbo mustang guys at work they tell me simliar oil flow stories with set up on their systems. One guy had to add a vaccum pump to solve it and the other had to go with bigger fittings to allow better oil flow back into the oil pan. Also, the specialist today told me he gets so many turbos that are "presumed" bad that are absolutely fine. The turbos get blamed for the problem before the root cause is determined in most cases.
 
Sorry to ask but what is an oil catch can? How much is it? How difficult of an installation is it? And how effective is it?
 
wow this is good info lzcztq, thank you. are you going to be trying to fix this issue with bigger fittings or better oil lines? please keep us uptodate if you do. Here is another interesting post from another forum. I posted this in another thread on here about a blown turbo too.

Here's a post I found on an SRT forum:

If you have a car that resembles a James Bond tricked out SRT-4, please take the time and check this out.

A turbo drains its oil from gravity, nothing more and nothing less. If there is any restriction in the turbo's drain path back to the pan, oil will build up in the center housing. This oil is going to take the path of least resistance and will leak out of the turbine's side piston ring and turn into blue smoke coming out of the exhaust.

Most of your friends are going to tell you that you have a blown seal, and that your turbo needs to be rebuilt. 99% of the time, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. We get turbos in the shop everyday for rebuild because of the mysterious "blown seal" theory that lingers around every intarweb forum that deals with any turbo vehicle. These turbos are perfectly fine, and don't need a rebuild 99% of the time.

I'm putting this explaination together to help all of you save time and energy before you feel the need to send a turbo back to us for rebuild.

Lately, we've noticed a trend with some of the available "check valves" in this market that some shops are selling. Moreso, there are part numbers floating around this forum from industrial supply companies that many people are buying and installing. Most of these check valves will not work properly to allow enough crankcase venting so the turbo can sufficiently drain.

We've done some testing here with a local car and we were able to figure out what was going on. The very popular 1/4"NPT check valve has a .200" valve that is insufficient in allowing the engine to pull enough crankcase pressure when in vacuum. This extra crankcase pressure under vacuum conditions will cause the turbo to leak oil past the piston ring and results in blue smoke out your exhaust. Get rid of this size check valve as all your are doing are causing more problems for yourself.

That same company offers a check valve with 3/8" NPT ports and the valve size is .460". This valve is FTW, period.

We put the 1/4"NPT check valve on the car, let it sit at idle for 30 minutes. After about 20 minutes, the car started smoking, and got progressively worse over the next 10 minutes. Keep in mind, this is on a car that never smoked before. We then installed the 3/8" NPT check valve on the car and let it idle for 30 minutes. No smoke at all. We then put the smaller check valve back in, and instantly started smoking again.
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the ppl whos cars r smoking, does the car smoke at idle and everythiing, nd its white/blue or is it only at WOT, mine smokes a bit at WOT cause im runnin no cats idk y or y not, it just does, its black to
 
Mine was at idle. Once or twice it was so bad I was smoking clouds at a light, it turned green, and no one behind me moved cause they couldn't see through it. That was embrassing ;)
 
Mine was mostly at idle too. Actually it seems to have gotten little better since I found some issues with my plumbing to the catch can. Only drove it to work and back so far. I still want to investigate crankcase pressure and the oil lines though. For the crankcase pressure check my "specialist" told me to check at the dipstick and it should be less than 1psi. Just gotta rig up a gauge to do so now...
 
So i got tired of the smoke and finally took it to mazda... and i let they know what i had on my car and he said he would check it out, half and hour later or so i get a call and he said that they are ordering a new turbo and will be replaced under warranty. So im pretty excited but my question is should i be worried that this is going to happen again or should i finally relax? thanks again
 
ncspeed21 said:
So i got tired of the smoke and finally took it to mazda... and i let they know what i had on my car and he said he would check it out, half and hour later or so i get a call and he said that they are ordering a new turbo and will be replaced under warranty. So im pretty excited but my question is should i be worried that this is going to happen again or should i finally relax? thanks again
Click to expand...

I'd say there is a way better than even chance, maybe even 90% chance that if you took your old turbo to a turbo shop, they'd say there is nothing wrong with it. Thus, your new one is likely to start smoking because "it ain't the turbo."

Get a catch can, install it (see threads here) and enjoy your perfectly normal K04 turbo "smoking" due to the high boost and a less than satisfactory crankcase vent/recirc system.
 
MSMS3 said:
I'd say there is a way better than even chance, maybe even 90% chance that if you took your old turbo to a turbo shop, they'd say there is nothing wrong with it. Thus, your new one is likely to start smoking because "it ain't the turbo."

Get a catch can, install it (see threads here) and enjoy your perfectly normal K04 turbo "smoking" due to the high boost and a less than satisfactory crankcase vent/recirc system.
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+1

Also, has anyone tried a catch can with breather and allowed the crankcase to VTA instead of having a hose pull the vapors on the intake? Or would this compound the problem by reducing vacuum in the crankcase, which is desirable to help ring seal?
 
Mine started smoking today, folks. :( Here's how it went:

I drove at modest speed for about 3 minutes.

Idled for ten minutes, then shut down for ten minutes.

Restarted and drove about a half-mile. Had to gun it a little, out into traffic. Got across and idled at a traffic light, and sure enough, I saw white smoke in my RVM. I now believe it started when I idled, rather than when I gunned it, and it lasted less than a minute. As soon as I started driving again, it was done.

I tried later in the day idling the car for 5 minutes, but could not reproduce the smoking.

It goes to the dealer Tuesday and they believe it was the turbo. They say they'll take all the hoses off and check. They're a pretty good dealer, service-wise, so I have some faith in them.

Here are my details:

2006 MS6 GT
30,800 miles
Mods: None

I'll post up what the repair part # is.
 
Wurf said:
+1

Also, has anyone tried a catch can with breather and allowed the crankcase to VTA instead of having a hose pull the vapors on the intake? Or would this compound the problem by reducing vacuum in the crankcase, which is desirable to help ring seal?
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DO NOT get a OCC with a filter on it....you WILL run much leaner...for example, with the filter on, I had LTFT of 20+ at idle...after taking it off I am now around 5 at idle.
__________________

I posted this earlier...it was a breathier filter..gave me crazy LTFT readings
 
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