Yet ANOTHER rough idle - 2002 P5

sslavik

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Protege5
I've read about 1 bazillion posts on rough idle but haven't been able to resolve mine. It started about a month ago and has gotten progressively worse.

Symptoms: Idles smooth at 700-1000rpm while in park, a/c off. Turn on the a/c, idle drops slightly (that's normal) then gets erratic. It never goes high, just random hard drops, a couple times a second, almost to stall. Turn a/c off, goes back smooth. Now put it in Reverse or Drive, same erratic idle. Park or neutral, smooth. Drive + a/c is worse that either by itself. No CELs. Alternator is charging properly. When driving, it sputters off idle but gets completely smooth by 2000rpm. The symptoms aren't there on cold start; they start showing up after running a few minutes.

What I've done: Removed and cleaned EGR valve, IAC, and throttle body with carb spray. Carbon was fairly light for 150k miles and the EGR moved pretty freely when I took it off, so didn't think cleaning would make much difference, and it didn't at all. Cleaned MAF with MAF cleaner. It was pretty clean too, and no change. With engine at smooth idle I sprayed carb spray at every hose and connection I could find, nothing blipped. I cleaned the engine ground strap and battery terminals; they were clean to start with. Replaced gas cap. Replaced coils, plugs, wires. Replaced air intake 2 years go. Threatened to drive it off bridge or into tree. Let it idle both with and without PCV valve plugged in, no change. Idled with EGR both connected and not, no change. Idled with IAC connected and not. It wouldn't idle on it's own with IAC disconnected, but could hold it at idle by the gas pedal and still got the same symptoms. Threatened to drive into a bridge. Nothing has helped.

Somebody, anybody, ideas?

Thanks!
 
I've read about 1 bazillion posts on rough idle but haven't been able to resolve mine. It started about a month ago and has gotten progressively worse.

Symptoms: Idles smooth at 700-1000rpm while in park, a/c off. Turn on the a/c, idle drops slightly (that's normal) then gets erratic. It never goes high, just random hard drops, a couple times a second, almost to stall. Turn a/c off, goes back smooth. Now put it in Reverse or Drive, same erratic idle. Park or neutral, smooth. Drive + a/c is worse that either by itself. No CELs. Alternator is charging properly. When driving, it sputters off idle but gets completely smooth by 2000rpm. The symptoms aren't there on cold start; they start showing up after running a few minutes.

What I've done: Removed and cleaned EGR valve, IAC, and throttle body with carb spray. Carbon was fairly light for 150k miles and the EGR moved pretty freely when I took it off, so didn't think cleaning would make much difference, and it didn't at all. Cleaned MAF with MAF cleaner. It was pretty clean too, and no change. With engine at smooth idle I sprayed carb spray at every hose and connection I could find, nothing blipped. I cleaned the engine ground strap and battery terminals; they were clean to start with. Replaced gas cap. Replaced coils, plugs, wires. Replaced air intake 2 years go. Threatened to drive it off bridge or into tree. Let it idle both with and without PCV valve plugged in, no change. Idled with EGR both connected and not, no change. Idled with IAC connected and not. It wouldn't idle on it's own with IAC disconnected, but could hold it at idle by the gas pedal and still got the same symptoms. Threatened to drive into a bridge. Nothing has helped.

Somebody, anybody, ideas?

Thanks!

The idle should speed up to compensate for the added load of A/C, power steering, etc. Since it does not, it pretty much narrows the problem down to a fault in the IAC, which is responsible for that.

I would pull the throttle body assembly and take it apart on the bench. Make sure the IAC passages are completely clear, and that the IAC plunger can move freely in its bore. If those check out, consider replacing the IAC motor.
 
Good info. I previously removed and cleaned IAC/EGR/Throttle body, they weren't that dirty for 150k. I checked EGR movement but not IAC movement, oops. Now knowing what that IAC does I ran a few more tests:

Engine Cold (doesn't have the problem): Turn on a/c idle does go up a bit then settles back down to just below where it started. Same thing when turning steering wheel back and forth, though not as pronounced. Unplug IAC connector. It won't idle but I can hold idle with gas pedal. Turn on a/c, big drop in rpm. Move steering wheel, small drop in rpm. Seems that it's doing it's job when it's plugged in; move the steering wheel it opens a little, turn on the a/c and it opens a lot more.

Engine Warm (has idle problem): Same tests, same results (except getting the erratic rpm drops, plugged in or not).

The one predictable thing is smooth idle when cold, goes to crap as it warms up. What the heck changes as it warms up? It only takes 2-3 minutes before it starts happening, so doesn't have to be fully hot. There are coolant lines on the IAC/Throttle body. Maybe as the tstat opens, coolant starts flowing thru it and turns it to crap for some reason.? Think I'll try bypassing the coolant around the IAC/Tbody, see if it changes.
 
Pulled coolant lines off IAC/TB and plugged. Smooth idle cold, goes to crap before the temperature gauge starts to move. Grrrr.
 
Have you reset the ECU? Is the intake tube torn after the MAF? Any split vacuum lines? Have you checked the intake manifold gaskets for leaks?
 
reset ECU, no tears in intake tube, can't find any split vacuum lines. I sprayed carb cleaner all over the base of the intake and every vac line I could find, didn't affect idle, though I'll probably get lung cancer from the fumes.

I made a plate to block off the egr, no change, making another for the IAC. Grasping at straws, obviously. Getting a vacuum gauge tomorrow. Anybody know what it should be at idle?
 
What happens when you
unplug the iac while its running?

With the IAC unplugged it just dies on idle. If I hold it at idle with the gas pedal I still get the drops. I'm putting a blocking plate on it tomorrow in case it's an internal leak or something. Even if that doesn't change the behavior I'm about at the point of just replacing the IAC, and EGR if the IAC doesn't do it. I hate throwing parts at it but I'm at my wits end.
 
Yeah, it sure seems like the IAC is working. It kicks the idle up a bit when you turn the a/c on, put it in gear, or turn the wheel (idle always settles back down from the load in every case).
 
No kidding? 100 miles?

Roughly, yes... It needs a bunch of attempts to establish an idle at different temperatures and such.

City driving is best where it has lots of chances to go to idle.

My guess is to let it stumble without hitting the gas or that attempt to figure out an idle is void and it will need to do it over.

The more the car struggles to reestablish idle shows how far the car has drifted from original factory specs. (they would have all idled perfectly off the line as new)

Keep in mind that our ECU is rather dumbly... I believe it still runs windows 95.
 
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I found this... It appears the ECU uses information from the Input Air Temp. Sensor, RPM, Engine Coolant Temperature, Mass Air Flow, Throttle Position Sensor, Neutral Switch, Clutch Switch, Power Steering Switch, and the AC Switch in an effort to maintain proper idle.



 
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Thanks for that info. Plenty of places to go wrong it seems.

So, the car has ~80 miles since the ECU reset, nothing has changed except I have a shiny new vacuum gauge. :) Warm idle, no a/c, in Park, 21 inHg. Put it in gear or turn on a/c, 16. Add the other one (a/c or put in gear), 14. Is that right? Should it maintain 21 with a/c in gear? Also, the drops knock it down another 5 for just an instant.
 
I think you should put half a can of seafoam in the gas and the other half up the brake booster... It can't hurt,... doesn't cost much and may help.

(I use it as soon as my idle starts to bounce a bit)

If you do replace your IAC valve, you may want to go OEM for that part. One guy I remember went with aftermarket and it was crap. The OEM one worked perfect.
 
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