Tuning the Stock Ecu? Possible?

[BRIAN_MP5T]

Brian_MP5T - you have a very nice car, and obviously are abundant in knowledge. There is no reason you could not have replied to my forum in a way like installshield2 did. The way you came into this was my cars king **** f*** everything else. Do it like mine or its garbage. And many other members have said they feel the same way about you. We are more than willing to hear what you have to share, and learn from your knowledge, but you could be a little kinder when doing so. As I probably would have loved to hear what you had to say if I did not feel you were arrogant upon reading original post.

Honestly, what I say on the forum is for your benifit and I don't get paid to help you and I am not obligated to do so. Please refrain from telling me how I should convey my information to you. Nothing I said was untrue and it's not my fault you are made of Jello. This is the internet, everyone starts "Modifying" with misconceptions. You are no different, you clearly need a lot of guidance and education. I believe that you really need to read up on things like, "Turbo Size Selection" and "Engine Management" before you plan any future steps. (And Please don't assume that you already know what you need to, because it is clear that you do not yet fully understand)

What you posted made no sense and makes you seem like you have seen too many F&F movies, or gone to Import Fest too many times.

You said you want to make "Linear Power" with the supercharger, that may be legitimate goal, but you are misinformed that this is the only way to get your goals.

I am trying to save you from going down a long road of bulls*** and money, just to get to a point where you finally realize how bad the original idea was.

Turbo Lag occurs only 3 times.

If the turbo is purposefully or accidentally selected too large for the HP Target.
If the turbo is malfunctioning.
If the driver does not understand that you need to shift to keep the engine in the power band (above the boost threshold)

You can see from the above, that if the turbo is selected to reach the correct goal and is in good condition, then LAG IS CAUSED BY DRIVER ERROR.

The GT-28 that I had spooled below 2700 RPM, the GT-30 that I currently have spools below 3400 RPM... In an Protege, there is no time where you should be trying to reach full throttle that low, you should downshift and accelerate.

Supercharger provide instant power at the cost of weight and drag on the pulley. They are linear meaning that they only provide Peak Torque only at Redline.

Turbochargers provide instant Peak HP above the boost threshold with no drag. They are linear over the boost threshold and provide Peak Torque all the way to Redline.




Read all of this or Dont read it I don't really care what you do with your time. I am trying to help you

 

[Installshield 2]

I have never heard of this before?

a variable turbo refers to its compressor, where it self adjusts for different needs...

the compressor is responsible for 'boosting' the intake charge over ambient air pressure...the compressor is attached to the turbine on the 'hot side', which is spun by the exhaust stream from the cylinder head...

the trickier thing with turbo's, most often overlooked in enthusiast minds...is that boost actually has little to do with the power being made from a turbo...its all about the additional flow...boost pressure only gives an indication of engine efficiency, which is very useful for tuning...but 10psi of boost from different turbo's result in very different engine outputs...

so where a standard turbo setup can have parts that adjust this boost pressure, by either changing it at different rpm, or bleeding it off, etc...a variable turbo is able to change its flow characteristics...which is a much more useful way of controlling the way the engine and turbo work together...

Porsche 911 Turbo's have used these types for years...the veins or 'fins' on the compressor change length and geometry on the turbo...so at low rpm it will spin up like a small turbo, but also flowing air like a small turbo...giving a gradual rise to engine output; as apposed to the common 'on/off' many big turbo cars have...as engine rpm and turbo speed climb, the fins extend out more, moving even more air...engine output skyrockets, but there is no conceivable lag or delay as the turbo was already spinning...

its a better solution to the 90's era sequential turbo design...where a car (such as an FD RX7) had both a big and small turbo...the small turbo ran for low rpm, and eventually the bigger turbo was then plumbed in...on paper that sounds great, but in practice it was notoriously unreliable and unpredictable...

 

[BRIAN_MP5T]

...

 

[jeffmsp]

if you want to see a good example of a modern twin charged car read "How to tune and Modify Engine Management Systems".

They swap a Lexus V6 into an MR2 and then supercharge it using the TRD blower kit, then they build a turbo kit and compare the two systems, then they build the motor and compound charge the engine. It's ******* amazing.

Why would they go through all this trouble?

Because they weight of the motor is directly over the rear wheels so the car can actually get traction.

The guys who built this car could go cruising on the highway and then just mash the gas at freeway speeds to lift the front wheels in the air..

As far as I know there is not a trans that fits 3rd gen motors that could handle half the power you could make with a compound charged setup. At least 1.8BP guys have the FWD E153 trans swap option for cheap (pretty much the same as the trans used on that compound charged V6 in the mr2 I mentioned.

Due to FWD, with most "street" tires you cannot even keep traction with a bolt on MSP until 3rd gear, so why would you want more low end power? To do burnouts?

If OP wants a good FWD setup, determine your desired max power, then pick a turbo that is big enough to reach this, but a not so big that you have noticeable lag.

 

[DOMO]

This thread is awesome lol. to learn and to laugh from alike (popcorn)

 

[tweety2300]

My 323 with an open diff gets traction after 1st gear with a 205 tire. And its faster than an msp with an exhaust and fmic, not sure what else was done to it. I could see an msp spining through 3rd with the cheapest tires possible in 185 with 14" super light steelies. Traction can be gained on a fwd car if its setup correctly. A 230 whp civic with gutted interior with slicks can get traction with 10 psi launches. Obviously with the setup he's going for traction isn't a goal but a rediculous amount of power and something to show off how much money he has. Although if he had money to do this he would have money to put in something worth building

I personally think its a waste of time to tell him not to do it considering he owns a protege and wants to build it he either doesnt actually have the money to do it or he is stupid enough to put that kind of money into a protege that is still mostly stock im assumeing which means he is dumb enough to not listen. Hopefully i am proven wrong and hes some kind of genious that has money and know how and actually does it.

And also jeff the 1.8 bp guys can also use the dsm trans which can be built for cheap and handle alot of power and abuse. Honestly if someone is building a protege from scratch a bp swap would be the best bet imo

 

[jeffmsp]

ya but who drives with slicks on a street car?

and a stock MSP runs in the 15s so i sure hope you can beat a car with 2850 pounds, 155whp and a interwarmer lol your turbo 323 is probably much faster

Ive been bumping threads for 3rd gen traction bars and nobody seems to care. I guess people either arent going that fast or like to race from a roll.

I spin to 3rd every day with 17" rims stock MSP tire size. stock msp suspension. solid mounts on a "laggy" T40e 0.60/0.63.

running 1bar on a good setup with the stock T25R on a 2.0 fs with msp lsd will spin to 3rd as well without really good tires (my old fsde setup was like this)

who is running the dsm setup? anyone on this board ? would be interesting to see. are you talking awd or fwd dsm trans?

 

[TylerStoltz]

Ky tuner - sorry i meant to say super charger uses incomming air where as turbo uses exhaust. Was just at shock how arrogant some people can be.

For the love of God, a supercharger is driven by a pulley, not by air. I would love to see this set-up. I think it's a cool idea, but you're going to have to understand the basics of supercharging.

 

[BRIAN_MP5T]

The funny thing is that as far as I know there are only TWO (Correct me if I am wrong) proteges running a Supercharger.

Neither of them are set to make any actual HP (4 PSI at Maximum RPM for that so needed show car status)

To make a compounded supercharger/turbo setup would probably take up the entire engine bay, or that kit from Japan that replaces the intake manifold, with a SC and a Gigantic Belt. (Which also makes almost no real gains when compared to what any turbo kit could do)

 

[Jaleik]

I think you should put a second engine in the back instead.

 

[bikingpro5]

The funny thing is that as far as I know there are only TWO (Correct me if I am wrong) proteges running a Supercharger.

Neither of them are set to make any actual HP (4 PSI at Maximum RPM for that so needed show car status)

To make a compounded supercharger/turbo setup would probably take up the entire engine bay, or that kit from Japan that replaces the intake manifold, with a SC and a Gigantic Belt. (Which also makes almost no real gains when compared to what any turbo kit could do)

I know of 4 that are running the Eaton Superchargers. When my SC and upgraded pulley were on Cres' car running 8psi it preformed great in Autox. AJ is currently using his Sced Protege for Autox and he does very well in his class against other FI cars. Sometimes its about how you drive not about how much power you can put down to the tires.

 

[ajkulish]

my car is one of the supercharged proteges, and its all but a show car. believe it or not, its not all about boost pressure, its about air flow. So my wimpy 4 psi actually flows a significant amount of air and gives the car a rather peppy kick in the pants. since supercharging my car, ive shaved almost 2 seconds off of my 0-60 times. and my "show car" (that is covered in a garage done graffiti spray can paint job, and has more than its share of rust) is autocrossed at every event in the summer, and the "show" supercharger gives me immediate boost and is simply an awesome upgrade for this kind of racing. it helped me to clinch victory in my class while i was only on some worn down 205 street tires and blown coilovers. sure turbos have a lot of potential and can make some really cool numbers to look at, but if i could go back in time, i would walk down the same path that led me to supercharging. it makes for a fun car with some safe, reliable horsepower.

 

[CR3 Motorsports]

Yup with te custom pulley and intercooler I was running 8-9 psi on the SC setup. It performed very well agains t BMWs and STIs in SM. The P5 didn't have "show" qualities and was made to perform Autocross.

 

[rally2003]

I know of 4 that are running the Eaton Superchargers. When my SC and upgraded pulley were on Cres' car running 8psi it preformed great in Autox. AJ is currently using his Sced Protege for Autox and he does very well in his class against other FI cars. Sometimes its about how you drive not about how much power you can put down to the tires.

Driver mod is always greater than car mod. AJ does pretty good in SMF against other FI cars. The only time you need raw power is straight line and these cars aren't made for straight line. I've beat other MSP's and cars with way more horse power at an SCCA event running on stock boost. Power isn't everything and the 4-5psi the his SCed Protege is plenty for that.

 

[tweety2300]

ya but who drives with slicks on a street car?

and a stock MSP runs in the 15s so i sure hope you can beat a car with 2850 pounds, 155whp and a interwarmer lol your turbo 323 is probably much faster

Ive been bumping threads for 3rd gen traction bars and nobody seems to care. I guess people either arent going that fast or like to race from a roll.

I spin to 3rd every day with 17" rims stock MSP tire size. stock msp suspension. solid mounts on a "laggy" T40e 0.60/0.63.

running 1bar on a good setup with the stock T25R on a 2.0 fs with msp lsd will spin to 3rd as well without really good tires (my old fsde setup was like this)

who is running the dsm setup? anyone on this board ? would be interesting to see. are you talking awd or fwd dsm trans?

What tires are you using? A friend of mine used to have an msp with bolt ons runing 14 psi and he was getting traction about halfway through 2nd

Theres a couple people on club protege with bp swapped 323s with the toyota trans and one person with an evo8 trans that i know of, the evo still uses a 4g63 which will use the same bolt pattern for the trans as a fwd ecipse but i think the motor in the eclipse is on the driver side so im not 100% sure it would work for fwd. The crossmember that has to be made for the awd trans is really simple to make and i see alot of people going that route soon

 

[Timmy_03-P5]

I think you should put a second engine in the back instead.

This, this right here!

 

[jeffmsp]

What tires are you using? A friend of mine used to have an msp with bolt ons runing 14 psi and he was getting traction about halfway through 2nd

Theres a couple people on club protege with bp swapped 323s with the toyota trans and one person with an evo8 trans that i know of, the evo still uses a 4g63 which will use the same bolt pattern for the trans as a fwd ecipse but i think the motor in the eclipse is on the driver side so im not 100% sure it would work for fwd. The crossmember that has to be made for the awd trans is really simple to make and i see alot of people going that route soon

now i remember i saw that evo8 conversion there too, you just got me thinking dsm ie talon/laser/eclipse trans and i dont know of anyone running those. either way even the toyota swap is a ton of work ive had my adaptor plate sitting here for quite some time lol

I've spent quite a bit of time thinking of the comppound charged setup as a home made kit went for cheap a while ago and would essentially be bolt on with my current setup,(all i would really need is the intake mani adaptor, the blower, a TB inlet pipe and some patience) but like I said I cant really get good traction already with a laggy setup, so unless I grew some balls and tried out some sort of E153 awd install Im going to try my best to forget about the idea.

the setup (just an adaptor plate from the lower intake manifold to the blower)

my current engine bay with "laggy" turbo

the transmission i would need to power all 4 wheels and make the idea into something that would actually be useful (installed on a bp with the same trans plate i have already.)

but I'll say it again that IMO with a FWD setup there just really isnt a point to all this.

one way to think about it is:

if you want a "quick" 2.0 fs juse a stock msp turbo
if you want a "fast" 2.0 FS buy something inexpensive and on the larger side
if you want a quick fast car buy an expensive BB turbo that fits your power goals
and if you want the best and a lighter wallet go all out and build your car into something awsome like the mp5T



one thing I HAVE always admired about superchargers is that it must be very relatively easy in comparison to most turbo setups to obtain a healthy ratio of inlet pressure vs exhaust pressure. just think of how nice a good FI setup must flow with no turbo choking things up in the manifold and a huge straight pipe exhaust with a good header. If it was an efficient blower I bet psi for psi it would outperform most of the common turbo setups seen around here that dont use an external gate.

 

[tweety2300]

I thought Toyota had a good fwd trans?

 

[BRIAN_MP5T]

8 PSI at 7000 RPM, or 4 at 4000 RPM. Sometimes its about how you drive not about how much power you can put down to the tires.

So, as I said.. "The Supercharger adds 10 WHP"

That low of boost will net pathetic gains, then coupled with the parasitic losses associated with driving the belt... Whoopee, the car is heavy and as slow as before..



The point here is..

"The OP has no idea yet what he is talking about and just said TWIN-CHARGE because it sounded cool"

Supercharger alone is weak on this car, it will never reach any real gains the way any stock MSP kit can.

 

[ajkulish]

Brian would you care to provide some proof? Saying the sc adds 10 whp is complete horseshit and so is denying its potential. My weak supercharger provided me with enough power to keep even with bolted msp's. I can send you video evidence outside of m247, if you don't understand. I recommend that you do a little more research if you wish to keep talking about supercharging, because its obviously not your area of expertise.