Pulling to the right with acceleration

CustomMSP

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2010 Mazda RX8
Hey. Would anybody have a clue as to why this might be? The more throttle the harder it pulls to the right. This does NOT happen with the front tires in the air, so I don't think that the axles are at fault? The front end feels solid enough for it to not be the cause as well, however a bushing or something could be ripped which only is apperant under load? Maybe something with the rear suspension is causing this under weight transfer? Another thing the car is having an issue with is vibration under braking, even with new rotors after a few k miles of wear. Could the wheel bearings be bad?

Thanks.
 
Doesn't sound like the wheel bearings if you're not hearing any noise when turning.
Have you had your alignment checked? How old are your suspension compnents? (struts and strut mounts)
 
Car was aligned twice
Rear struts are new
Fronts are still in good condition

The rear left suspension sits slightly lower, possibly due to a sagging spring, but I don't think that is enough to cause such a hard pull?
 
No problem, had to cover that first.

Have somebody stand to the side of your car and watch the front wheels in the wheel well... powerbrake it(might be kinda a pain being a manual)... basically stand on the brakes to keep the front wheels from spinning(brakes locked), but apply a load with the clutch and throttle.

Have them watch for the wheels moving excessively in the wheel wells. Try both forwards and backwards. Usually it's an indication of lower control arm bushings going out in the front... when the rear bushing of the front control arm wears(which is normally the first to get sloppy/fail in my experience with all other cars... no MSP experience personally)... it lets the control arm move backwards under accelleration, lowering your caster on the side that is going bad.

Caster is what gives you your "return to center" feeling and when it's significantly off, will pull to the side with lower caster. Obviously if your control arm is moving under load, this is what is happening... it might show to be just fine on the alignment rack, but move while driving. It might also be that the bushings look fine, but you need to take a pry bar to attempt to flex them and see if they are separated or chunking or anything. It can be tough to tell if the bushings are very soft when brand new unless there is a visible tear or something to condemn it for sure.
 
No problem, had to cover that first.

Have somebody stand to the side of your car and watch the front wheels in the wheel well... powerbrake it(might be kinda a pain being a manual)... basically stand on the brakes to keep the front wheels from spinning(brakes locked), but apply a load with the clutch and throttle.

Have them watch for the wheels moving excessively in the wheel wells. Try both forwards and backwards. Usually it's an indication of lower control arm bushings going out in the front... when the rear bushing of the front control arm wears(which is normally the first to get sloppy/fail in my experience with all other cars... no MSP experience personally)... it lets the control arm move backwards under accelleration, lowering your caster on the side that is going bad.

Caster is what gives you your "return to center" feeling and when it's significantly off, will pull to the side with lower caster. Obviously if your control arm is moving under load, this is what is happening... it might show to be just fine on the alignment rack, but move while driving. It might also be that the bushings look fine, but you need to take a pry bar to attempt to flex them and see if they are separated or chunking or anything. It can be tough to tell if the bushings are very soft when brand new unless there is a visible tear or something to condemn it for sure.

Here is a link to another forum where I made a reasonably in-depth post on the basics of alignment stuff and problems. Scroll about halfway down to see my post:

edit: damn... can't link it... so I'll quote it:

I've probably done a few thousand alignments so I'll add a few things here.

First off I have never aligned anything specifically for auto-x, nor do I know how aligning stuff out of spec on purpose will do at the limits of traction, I'll let the people who actually race do that.

I do know exactly what each change will do in general when it comes to daily driving.

I used to be into Jeeps and whatnot... I made this write-up specifically for aligning solid axle vehicles... BUT I go over the basics of camber/caster/toe/thrust angle/scrub radius/etc etc... which is worth a read.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/end-all-all-tj-alignment-thread-long-read-663777/


A few clarifications on some stuff I saw that was wrong or unclear while I was browsing some of this thread:

Thrust angle will not cause a pull... it will not cause any unusual tire wear assuming all else is in spec. It is basically the angle that the rear "axle" is pointing(average of the rear toe). If your thrust angle is off by much, your car will "crab walk" town the road sideways. I'm sure when it comes to racing you will probably notice if it's more than a couple tenths of a degree off when comparing left vs right turns, but on the road, you will never notice even 0.50 deg thrust angle. Most leaf sprung vehicles have a tolerance of 1, some even TWO full degrees of thrust angle.

In reality you can have SO much s*** wrong alignment wise and still have it drive straight down the road... case in point is my Jeep. It's on 40" tires and I have the front axle INTENTIONALLY 3" to the passenger side for driveshaft clearance. It's not noticable unless you really look at it for a few minutes... but it drives straight and I've put 3000 miles on the tires with no unusual wear. It crab walks down the road a little bit, but the streering wheel is straight, and I've had it 70mph no problems.

All that thrust angle is is this: It is the angle at which your rear wheels are pushing in relation to the front axle... YOUR FRONT AXLE MEASUREMENTS RELY SOLELY ON WHAT THE ANGLE OF THE REAR IS when it is on an alignment machine... Lets make an "example":

Start with these specs in this car with wheel straight and all that(we're only looking at toe because that is the only thing that affects thrust angle):

0.05 LF toe, 0.05 RF toe

0.05 LR toe, 0.05 RR toe

That car has a thrust angle of 0... it's all straight.

Now lets change the rear toe to affect it... If you were to set the rear toe to 0.00 LR and 0.10 RR, this will give you a thrust angle of 0.05 to the left. The machine will usually display this as "-0.05" FWIW.

BUT since the front is based off the rear... by changing the rear, that changes the front measurement according to the machine... it will now display:

0.10 LF toe, 0.00 RF toe

0.00 LR toe, 0.10 RR toe with a thrust angle of -0.05 which we already went over.

Your total toe in both front and rear has not changes... you have just changed the direction of what is called "center."

So now your steering wheel will be slightly off center, and the car will slightly crab walk down the road(though honestly you probably wouldn't notice it, even following behind because of how little it is).


While we're talking about toe... if the wheel is straight, and your total toe is correct, it does not matter what your individual toe is(on the front axle)... because as soon as you start driving they will fight each other and center themselves to be equal on both sides.



Camber: If your camber is off from left vs right, your car will pull to the side with more POSITIVE camber. Pictures and more explanation is in the link I posted. As far as the pull goes, in my experience... it is usually only noticable at low speeds... maybe 25mph or so. Also see the next section about why a FWD car will not pull anyways... at least not enough to really notice.

Caster: This is what affects your "return to center" and having it off from left vs right will usually make turning one way vs the other a little bit easier than the other. Most RWD cars and some FWD cars are set up to have intentionally have more positive caster on the passenger side... this is to combat road crown. This is so your car won't wander to the right side on the highway when you're taking a 600 mile trip. Note that in FWD cars... caster does DAMN NEAR NOTHING to affect the pull of the car. If your car is physically pulling on the highway... it is very likely your tires more than anything. Rotate them... one of them has more rolling resistance than the other. I have seen a full 1.5 degree difference in L vs R caster in a FWD car and it still drove straight. RWD cars are far more susceptible to caster pull.

Toe: Everyone pretty much got this right on. You want it as close to zero as possible... toe in = stability, toe out= twitchy feeling... but I'll let the road racers/seasoned auto-xers go more into that. Basically keep it in spec if you don't want to burn through tires all the time. Most factory vehicles have 0.20 degrees TOTAL toe at the most as spec(that's left + right)... it's pretty unusual to have more than that... though more common would be 0.10 degrees total(0.05 one each side).


Maybe once I have a season of auto-x under my belt I'll feel inclined to make a write-up specifically for our Mazdas.

At the dealer I work at, for a while I was doing 10-12 alignments per day on cars that were to be sold and had a problem on a test drive... 5/10 "pulls" are from tires... 4/10 "pulls" are actually people thinking the steering wheel being off center means it's pulling... the last 1/10 was a legitimate pull from an alignment... and it was always a RWD car or RWD biased AWD SUV.



Just for giggles... try swapping your front tires left to right to see what happens. It doesn't sound like it's your problem... but it's a free check to do before moving onto more costly "might-fixes."
 
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Speaking of caster, I remember one of the sides being significantly off from factory specs and the other side. I believe it was something like 3.6 deg while the factory is something like 2.5. I'll go through your procedure tomorrow. Thanks.

This has been going on with two different tire sets, however it has worsened recently.
 
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No problem... if you can post the alignment specs I'll let you know what I think(or you can figure it out based on the link in the post of mine I quoted).

Generally when it comes to cars... more caster isn't really a bad thing, as long as it's equal on both sides... it gives you more dynamic camber(more negative camber on the outside wheel only while turning) and gives you a nice crisp steering feel... think BMW-like.


edit: While caster being different left vs right on a FWD car won't normally cause a real "pull"... it will make turning in one direction noticably easier than the other... and if the car happens to be easily influenced by road imperfections. If you have low profile tires it will be even worse. Most of the stuff I aligned on a regular basis were more normal cars like Camrys and Civics and junk on 16" wheels on average.... not performance oriented stuff on 17s or 18s. Scion tCs are pretty bad about wanting to drift toward anything wrong with the road.
 
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Good read, much appreciated. I definitely do notice that the steering is heavier turning left, asssuming that this is due to the difference in caster. I'll see if i can find the print out.
 
Sounds like that might be the issue. While I'm not 100% sure... I'd be willing to bet there is no true way to adjust that on your car.

The MSPs are like Mazda3s as far as front suspension goes right? Macpherson strut front end? If so, you might have a bent strut and/or control arm... or worn bushing as stated earlier. It might just be that when under accelleration, weight transfer and all that good stuff is going on and making it just that much more sensitive to the caster difference.
 
Could the rear left sag cause the difference in front caster?

Not enough to truly matter I would guess. If it's on the bumpstop... maybe... but less than an inch? Not likely... but I have been wrong before.

If you are inclined to do so, you could swap rear coils left to right just to see what happens.
 
Yeah, they're a Macpherson setup, but the strut mounts allow for slight caster/camber adjustments as they're off centric. The difference in the rear is probably a half in at most, and the dampening feels equal between the two sides. I should know more tomorrow.
 
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Yeah... if you are able to get a bit of caster taken out of the left side, and add some to the right side, that should be a move in the right direction if the alignment is indeed off.

edit: If it's not enough... you can always resort to shifting the subframe on the chassis to squeak an extra 0.2 to 0.3 change if you're lucky(whistle) It's a pain in the ass... this is how you adjust camber and caster on Dodge Chargers/Magnums/Chrysler 300s.(boom01)
 
Here's a vid i took of the test you advised of;


I don't see any side to side movement?
 
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Well, a big oversight on my part, but the tire pressure was way off from one side to the other in the front. It's like somehow the air from the right tire transferred to the left tire in the exact amount of the difference between the two. Now that the tire pressure has been corrected, the car drivers pretty much straight, with a slight pull to the right still, possibly due to uneven tire wear.
 
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