New P5 feels suffocated, low on top-end power? Mild pinging at low end?

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doubleKlutch

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2002 Mazda Protege5
Hi all, I just bought a 2002 Mazda Protege 5 (Base, I assume) yesterday. It drove really nice for a $3500 car, so I bought it, but I've noticed some odd things over the last few hours. I also drive a 1999 Protege with the 1.6 DOHC motor, and the comparison is strange.

-Pinging? There is a mild pinging under moderate load at low-mid rpm. I didn't notice it on the test drive, and I suspect the previous owner may have used higher octane fuel. The tank was empty when I bought it and I filled it with 87. Is it normal to ping at low rpm and not high rpm? Wiki's article on 'knocking' (spark detonation) implies that it should ping worse at the top end.

-Suffocated powerband? Compared to my 1.6 '99 Protege, I was expecting a bit more power. Maybe the '02, in wagon form, is heavy enough to cancel out the extra 0.4 liters. It certainly has more grunt at the bottom end. But at about 4k rpm, it just seems to plateau and run out of breath. My 99 pulls hardest at the top end, but the 02 just seems to die out. Are the 2.0l cars engineered for low end grunt? It almost feels like the 02 2.0L P5 is slower than the 99 1.6L sedan. Is that expected?

My initial thoughts:
-I bought the car from a shop that claimed that recently did the 150k service and a timing belt. I'm wondering if the belt might be off a tooth?
-Or maybe the Cat is clogged? That would restrict top end power and might that raise cylinder temperatures enough to ping lightly? Are there any tests for a clogged Cat?
-The manual recommends 87 octane fuel (or higher), but I think I'll try a tank on 89 or 91 and see what happens. Gotta wait for an empty tank though...
-Should I worry about doing any damage while driving the car, assuming that it is suffering from power loss and detonation?

I've got less than a 100 miles on the car so far. I'll do some more driving today and see if I can add any details later.
Thanks for any ideas.
 
No, All things being equal, pinging will be more noticeable and is more common at low rpm/high load conditions. has to do with burn rates and at low RPM there's more expansion time to light off a second flame front.There are reasons for it to happen more at high end but that's usualy wth much hotter tuned engines than these. There are whole textbooks, multiple textbooks written on the subject.

Easiest way to check for clogged cat is with a backpressure tester. basically just a pressure gauge that screws into the O2 sensor bung.

It's certainly not a high power engine, it's an emissions friendly, reliable, broad powerband engine geared short for sportyness. My wifes P5 certainly doesn't make much more power at 6k than 4k but it also seems more sluggish than it did 3 years and 40k miles ago. Or maybe I've just gotten used to more powerful vehicles...

No idea how it compares to the 1.6.
 
kamesama980 said:
Easiest way to check for clogged cat is with a backpressure tester. basically just a pressure gauge that screws into the O2 sensor bung.
Click to expand...

So you like the clogged Cat theory? I'll test it this week.

One thing I noticed driving around today, the pinging seems to be intermittent. Are there scenarios that would cause detonation to be intermittent? Sometimes, I can't get it to ping, it sounds brilliant even when trying to lug the engine. And then on the next block, it'll obviously knock as high as 2800 rpm under gentle acceleration. It seems unpredictable, which is scary. It reminds me of intermittent tapping valves, occasionally being starved of oil. I suppose I could be hearing valves, but it really sounds like a lugging engine to me.

This morning, when I started it. I heard the knocking sound as it fired up, and then instantly it smoothed out, almost as if it was momentarily starved of oil. I suppose it could be a subtle rod knock... ew. Perhaps I have two overlapping problems that sound similar...
Would it make sense for a dead cold engine to detonate on startup?

Ah, it also seems to get worse when the engine reaches operating temperature. I understand that pinging gets worse with higher temps, but then again, rod knocks can also, right?

Thanks again.
 
Rod knock dosen't usually come and go though, unless its very very minor. And if it's minor it generally dosent stay that way very long either.
 
doubleKlutch said:
So you like the clogged Cat theory? I'll test it this week.

One thing I noticed driving around today, the pinging seems to be intermittent. Are there scenarios that would cause detonation to be intermittent? Sometimes, I can't get it to ping, it sounds brilliant even when trying to lug the engine. And then on the next block, it'll obviously knock as high as 2800 rpm under gentle acceleration. It seems unpredictable, which is scary. It reminds me of intermittent tapping valves, occasionally being starved of oil. I suppose I could be hearing valves, but it really sounds like a lugging engine to me.

This morning, when I started it. I heard the knocking sound as it fired up, and then instantly it smoothed out, almost as if it was momentarily starved of oil. I suppose it could be a subtle rod knock... ew. Perhaps I have two overlapping problems that sound similar...
Would it make sense for a dead cold engine to detonate on startup?

Ah, it also seems to get worse when the engine reaches operating temperature. I understand that pinging gets worse with higher temps, but then again, rod knocks can also, right?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...
i have known cars to rattle on startup when the sat overnight that is due to all the oil being in the pan so its a dry start.. give it a fresh oil change as see if that helps it. and i dunno but my p5 dont ping so maybe check the knock sensor if the goo is leaking replace it. and as for power my p5 on the low end is nothing special but when it hits 4k -5k it really starts to wake up.n pull
 
*hangs head in shame*

There is a loose heat shield or similar. I ran it through a parking deck a few times, and I'm pretty sure it's not pinging or knocking now. I'll secure/remove the loose metal and test run it again without the rattle.

I think I just get really paranoid when I buy cars...

Thanks again for the comments :)
 
Unfortunately, I was half right and half wrong all along. I do have a rattling component somewhere, although I can't locate it. I think it may be inside the cat.
I also have fairly severe pinging. Higher octane gas helps, but it's still disturbing.
There is also a considerable amount of rod-knock on start up, or maybe valve slap.
And I've realized that I'm burning a massive amount of oil. Sometimes, I get a thick cloud of 'white' (bluish?) smoke just after start up that lingers and reeks of oil. This, I think, is the result of failed valve seals.
And under hard acceleration above 4k or so, I get black smoke, thick enough to be visible in the wind. And this, I think, is the result of bad piston rings.
I think the oil consumption and contamination may explain my top end lethargy. Seems like everything that could go wrong, is going wrong.
And the starter just quit on me, but that's another thread....
 
Blue smoke on startup is valve seals. The ticking you hear is a lifter out of adjustment. Keep up on oil and Itl be fine, I've been procrastinating a rebuild on mine for 2 years

Black smoke is carbon which is normal, my Honda did it for 2 months when I ran it hard

Take it to autozone and have them put a code reader on it. You can have codes pop up and not trip the cel like p0660 which is Vic's which helps top end performance
 
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