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mods for 200 hp?
- Thread starter Murphy115
- Start date
KrayzieFox
Member
- :
- 01 MP3 Turbo
Exhaust (including downpipe), front mount IC & intake, SS AFC for tuning, and a reliable boost controller. Turn the boost up to 10-12 psi and you're at 200. May not be the most reliable build, but that would be the absolute bare minimum I would recommend if that's your goal. You're looking at about $1500-$2000 total.
I am pretty sure just a properly tuned MSP would be 200hp at the crank, unfortunately that's easier said than done. The SSAFC is probably the quickest and cheapest way, but it is far from perfect and expect inconsistencies.
A CAI is good for a few HP, and at least an SMIC is necessary to not heat soat. An FMIC is better but is more complicated.
Don't bother with a mid pipe or exhaust unless you replace the downpipe since that is the major bottleneck. But if your goal is 200hp, there money to upgrade the whole exhaust system.
Of course with a turbocharged car, you can always just use a $20 MBC and turn up the boost. However, I advise against that without proper tuning.
A CAI is good for a few HP, and at least an SMIC is necessary to not heat soat. An FMIC is better but is more complicated.
Don't bother with a mid pipe or exhaust unless you replace the downpipe since that is the major bottleneck. But if your goal is 200hp, there money to upgrade the whole exhaust system.
Of course with a turbocharged car, you can always just use a $20 MBC and turn up the boost. However, I advise against that without proper tuning.
Spiced MSP
Member
- :
- 2016 Peterbilt 579
everyone pretty much already said it. Just bolt ons, boost controller and a ssafc for tuning. The exhaust should be the first thing upgraded on any boosted car. About the down pipe thing, it isn't an absolute requirement for 200hp, it would be a great upgrade but with the limited availability, you could already have an exhaust on the car. I wouldn't even upgrade the stock smic with another smic because even though it is an "upgrade", it will still heatsoak because it is still small and in the engine bay.
I actually did some back to back pulls with my exhaust removed from the J-pipe back. There was no difference at all.
What that means is the bottleneck is our S and J pipe. So the exhaust isn't going to help at all until you get a larger downpipe. I've read a few posts that claim otherwise, but it's impossible to dismiss what you've seen with your own eyes.
I'll admit, the MSP stock makes no exhaust noise at all. I mean really, nothing comes from the back of my car in the slightest. But the induction noise from my Injen is pretty satisfying and I like blowing by people without them noticing, especially cops.
I am actually really happy to read a thread asking how to make 200hp rather than the typical 600whp world beater. Feel free to PM with any specific questions.
What that means is the bottleneck is our S and J pipe. So the exhaust isn't going to help at all until you get a larger downpipe. I've read a few posts that claim otherwise, but it's impossible to dismiss what you've seen with your own eyes.
I'll admit, the MSP stock makes no exhaust noise at all. I mean really, nothing comes from the back of my car in the slightest. But the induction noise from my Injen is pretty satisfying and I like blowing by people without them noticing, especially cops.
I am actually really happy to read a thread asking how to make 200hp rather than the typical 600whp world beater. Feel free to PM with any specific questions.
hornsfan10609
Certified Mazda Tech
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege x2
I have the stock s pipe but catless 2.5" j and mid pipe and it made a noticeable difference. The S pipe certainly restricts the exhaust flow but so does the midpipe with it's reduction between the 2 restrictive stock cats.
Hornsfan, I also bought a 2.5" midpipe with high flow cat that included the J pipe. The back to back pulls showed nothing, nada. I was within a tenth of a MPH trap speed in the 1/4 mile. This was in the middle of the summer and it was pretty slow, so maybe in colder weather the extra power would benefit from it, but I was disappointed enough to sell the mid pipe to someone who happened to have a CS S pipe on his car already.
Are you sure your cats were both in good shape and not clogged at before you replaced them?
I am really excited to see what that Edelbrock 2.5" DP does that Chiqles found.
BTW, I really thought I felt something on the butt dyno before the pulls, but it was definitely all psychological.
Are you sure your cats were both in good shape and not clogged at before you replaced them?
I am really excited to see what that Edelbrock 2.5" DP does that Chiqles found.
BTW, I really thought I felt something on the butt dyno before the pulls, but it was definitely all psychological.
chomper149
Member
- :
- #1417 Titanium MSP
so ive recently wondered this, When tuning the stock block, do you never want to go above 10 psi or do you never want to go above 200-220whp? So are the blocks blowing from the pressure inside or from the power its making?
So lets just say a msp made 200hp at 8 psi. would it be safe to tune it to 10 or would it be maybe making too much power at that point for the block?
So lets just say a msp made 200hp at 8 psi. would it be safe to tune it to 10 or would it be maybe making too much power at that point for the block?
This is a tricky question. The short answer: it is the power. The pressure seen by the intake, heads and cylinder during intake is negligible compared to the pressure seen during combustion. The extra PSI in the intake just means more air and more fuel to burn and more pressure during combustion.
However, a car making 220whp at 8psi is much safer than one at 10 or 12psi. The reason is because of the old PV=nRT ideal gas law. If the car intake has more pressure but producing the same power (assuming good tuning), then that means the intake air is hotter.
The hotter the intake air, the more dangerous it is. The heat can cause the gas/air mixture to burn improperly and in the catastrophic case, it burns before the spark. When this happens the piston gets the full force of the combustion pushing down on it while the entire momentum of the car is pushing the opposite direction. Something has to give, and it is either the con-rod or the piston itself.
The key is to tune the car properly while monitoring temps and knock. I believe most failures could be prevented, but there is definitely a stress limit to our internals. I think people make the mistake of thinking there is one HP limit for the rods, but the limits are often a factor of repeated stress. Just because a car puts down 500whp for a couple dyno runs doesn't mean it will run for 100k miles like a stock engine is intended to do.
However, a car making 220whp at 8psi is much safer than one at 10 or 12psi. The reason is because of the old PV=nRT ideal gas law. If the car intake has more pressure but producing the same power (assuming good tuning), then that means the intake air is hotter.
The hotter the intake air, the more dangerous it is. The heat can cause the gas/air mixture to burn improperly and in the catastrophic case, it burns before the spark. When this happens the piston gets the full force of the combustion pushing down on it while the entire momentum of the car is pushing the opposite direction. Something has to give, and it is either the con-rod or the piston itself.
The key is to tune the car properly while monitoring temps and knock. I believe most failures could be prevented, but there is definitely a stress limit to our internals. I think people make the mistake of thinking there is one HP limit for the rods, but the limits are often a factor of repeated stress. Just because a car puts down 500whp for a couple dyno runs doesn't mean it will run for 100k miles like a stock engine is intended to do.
tweety2300
Member
- :
- 2001 mazda protege mp3
This is a tricky question. The short answer: it is the power. The pressure seen by the intake, heads and cylinder during intake is negligible compared to the pressure seen during combustion. The extra PSI in the intake just means more air and more fuel to burn and more pressure during combustion.
However, a car making 220whp at 8psi is much safer than one at 10 or 12psi. The reason is because of the old PV=nRT ideal gas law. If the car intake has more pressure but producing the same power (assuming good tuning), then that means the intake air is hotter.
The hotter the intake air, the more dangerous it is. The heat can cause the gas/air mixture to burn improperly and in the catastrophic case, it burns before the spark. When this happens the piston gets the full force of the combustion pushing down on it while the entire momentum of the car is pushing the opposite direction. Something has to give, and it is either the con-rod or the piston itself.
The key is to tune the car properly while monitoring temps and knock. I believe most failures could be prevented, but there is definitely a stress limit to our internals. I think people make the mistake of thinking there is one HP limit for the rods, but the limits are often a factor of repeated stress. Just because a car puts down 500whp for a couple dyno runs doesn't mean it will run for 100k miles like a stock engine is intended to do.
Great info, but really any forced induction car you should expect to blow at any time, it never blows up because you ran it hard once or twice they tend to blow because its run hard all the time. Even at stock boost tuned well if you rag on it all the time it won't make it to 10k miles
It's all in how you drive your car and care for it, unless its an NA Honda, you can rag the s*** out of them for well over 100k miles and they will want more
So i haven't tested this myself, but there seems to be dyno proof that using a catback can yeild gains.
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpages/impp_1006_2003_mazdaspeed_protege_power_pages/
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpages/impp_1006_2003_mazdaspeed_protege_power_pages/
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- 1989 RX-7 GXL Blaze Red
So i haven't tested this myself, but there seems to be dyno proof that using a catback can yeild gains.
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpages/impp_1006_2003_mazdaspeed_protege_power_pages/
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/turbo_exhaust_theory/turbo_exhaust_theory.html
Spiced MSP
Member
- :
- 2016 Peterbilt 579
I find it funny that they refer to the coolant overflow as the windshield washer reservoir when talking about the intake
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Great info, but really any forced induction car you should expect to blow at any time, it never blows up because you ran it hard once or twice they tend to blow because its run hard all the time. Even at stock boost tuned well if you rag on it all the time it won't make it to 10k miles
It's all in how you drive your car and care for it, unless its an NA Honda, you can rag the s*** out of them for well over 100k miles and they will want more
All true...save a rotary engine...those can be expertly tuned, make great power, and last for 100k...yet a single ping can send it sideways out of the front of the car...well not that really, but ruin the apex seals instantly and its over...even though there was no previous damage leading up to the failure...
The best way to think of any 'performance' engine's life expectancy is from the heat direction, only exception being ignition timing..which is only partially heat related...but fuel tuning is 100% heat related, that is exactly why it needs control...
heat is what will ultimately kill any engine...the misconception starts with most owners starting out with 'i want more power', and focusing on how to get the numbers...and thinking a water cooled engine will keep itself in check, heat wise, no matter what...occasionally you see upgrades to radiators, some 'water wetter', stuff like that...but essentially coolant is only a portion of what needs to be cooling the engine when driven hard...
Oil and intake charge is actually better at cooling critical components than coolant ever is...coolants there for the block and head...thats about it...In fact the block itself is usually iron simply to act as a huge ass heat sink, not just for the strength...some blocks are aluminum or some exotic material, but they'll nearly always have iron sleeves pressed in for heat sinking the chambers...the coolant is a secondary agent for cooling what absorbed the heat to begin with...
but oil is inside the engine with its face in everything the whole time. keep that oil cooler than the block, and it too will absorb and suck out more heat with each cycle...Same with air and gasoline...even on a hot day, that stuff is less than half the average temp of the assembly inside the engine (again AVERAGE, there is localized heat over brief periods spiking 500 degrees)...nice cool air, a spray of gasoline, and cooled circulating oil will suck out WAY more heat, and much faster, than the water system can...and more importantly...it'll absorb it at the locations the water never gets to...
jdwk is exactly right...Since this is MSP related, i'll leave the NA problems of high rev friction and associated heat out of it...Ideally a goal for FI should be a power number with as little boost over ambient as possible...you can get to 200whp many different ways...some ways will be a 100% grenade...proper ways will make the engine possibly in a better state than it currently is...power is a derivative of torque, and torque, from a internal combustion engine, fundamentally IS heat...thats how this whole thing comes around full circle...Its heat management within the engine that determines a given power output from the same assets (same amounts of fuel and oxygen)...
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- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege
Just go with intake, exhaust, frontmount intercooler,than port and polish the intake manifold buy an ssafc and u should be good to go! lol
So i haven't tested this myself, but there seems to be dyno proof that using a catback can yeild gains.
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpages/impp_1006_2003_mazdaspeed_protege_power_pages/
I am not sure how to feel about the 11whp gain there when they lost torque lower down. The MSP ecu is too finicky to dyno with any consistency, but any fuel inconsistencies should be out of the equation by 6500 rpm where they are showing the most gain.
One thing is for sure though, the gains are significantly higher from a turbo-back exhaust. It is just common sense that the earlier in the exhaust you remove the restriction, the better. Is it any harder to blow through a straw if you put another straw on the end of it? The exhaust shop I spoke to said very matter of factly that an exhaust is only as good as its smallest diameter and I tend to agree. However, the T25 turbine outlet is only 1.75" and gains are found well before the wastegate opens up, so there is some expansion that takes place. And I'l admit there is some cooling before it gets to the tailpipe, so I don't think it is quite that simple, but if I was going to spend $400 on a perf mod for my MSP I would get the CS downpipe or use this edelbrock and have the other half made before I spent it on the other end.
http://www.turbomagazine.com/insidetechnology/turp_0408_ion_turbo_back_exhaust_mazda_protege/
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tweety2300
Member
- :
- 2001 mazda protege mp3
We're talking about a turbod car here, a little bit of power loss in lower rpms doesn't matter nearly as much as gains in the upper rpm range.I have no power at all untill 3000 rpms thanks to 7.9:1 pistons, but it doesn't bother me any at all because after that its a hand full fighting tourque steer
But I agree a down pipe should be one of the first mods, I think the msp has a 2 1/4" exhaust which is fine for 200 hp. But at the same time engine management is just as important. Especially considering the problems of the stock tune
But I agree a down pipe should be one of the first mods, I think the msp has a 2 1/4" exhaust which is fine for 200 hp. But at the same time engine management is just as important. Especially considering the problems of the stock tune
Even a stock EVO, STi or Cobalt SS for that matter are so infuriating to drive because of the lag I just couldn't ever bring myself to trade up from the MSP. So I never want to do anything that would diminish low end torque or response. However, the loss on these plots is negligible.
One of the main benefits claimed by downpipe vendors is the quicker spool with no restriction to the turbine outlet. I just figured if I was going to get a downpipe, I had to match the diameter all the way back, and I could never justify spending that kind of money on the MSP.
Magnaflow is a good company. I had a beautiful looking and sounding muffler on my MX-6, but the KL is a V6 and just naturally sounds smoother and deeper than any four pot. I also have a friend with a C6 that has magnaflow cans and they are some of the few aftermarket options that don't give you a headache after 10 minutes on the highway.
When I was considering adding a downpipe and going fully custom back, I was planning on using a 2.5" Magnaflow muffler similar to this one in the article. I like how they use the over axle position so they look just like stock.
It might be worth the $400 or so, especially if you live in the rust belt and need to replace your stock one anyway, but it certainly wouldn't be my first mod.
One of the main benefits claimed by downpipe vendors is the quicker spool with no restriction to the turbine outlet. I just figured if I was going to get a downpipe, I had to match the diameter all the way back, and I could never justify spending that kind of money on the MSP.
Magnaflow is a good company. I had a beautiful looking and sounding muffler on my MX-6, but the KL is a V6 and just naturally sounds smoother and deeper than any four pot. I also have a friend with a C6 that has magnaflow cans and they are some of the few aftermarket options that don't give you a headache after 10 minutes on the highway.
When I was considering adding a downpipe and going fully custom back, I was planning on using a 2.5" Magnaflow muffler similar to this one in the article. I like how they use the over axle position so they look just like stock.
It might be worth the $400 or so, especially if you live in the rust belt and need to replace your stock one anyway, but it certainly wouldn't be my first mod.
hornsfan10609
Certified Mazda Tech
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege x2
We are certainly spoiled by the quick spool of the small T25 on these cars. Upgrade the intake and exhaust and you are at full boost before 3k RPM.
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