Mazda CX-9 : next-generation to drop V6

tex2670 · May 2, 2014

2nd Gen News:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/282304/mazda-cx-9-next-generation-to-drop-v6-still-no-diesel-expected/

The next-generation Mazda CX-9 SUV will lose its V6 petrol engine, likely in favour of a more efficient turbocharged four-cylinder.

Mazda global head of sales and marketing, Masahiro Moro, indicated to CarAdvice at the New York auto show that Mazda is in a transition period away from the Ford-sourced V6 seen in the current CX-9.

We stopped production of our own V6 in the late 1990s. We have used Ford V6 [up until today, and that engine is still used in the CX-9]. Since then everybody is putting in a downsized turbocharged solution.

Moro suggested the Japanese brand may follow suit in dropping the six-cylinder in favour of a four-cylinder turbo for the next-generation model, which is expected to be launched by 2016.

I think that turbocharging technology has improved a lot, he said of the thirsty 2.3-litre four-cylinder turbo that was used in the now defunct Mazda CX-7.

But obviously a question is whether we put in two more cylinders or use turbocharge, which is cost-effective and [offers] better performance. Thats always a good question for engineers.

If I ask Mr Hitomi, our top guy of powertrains at Mazda, he believes the downsizing turbo solution costs more. But real downsizing means six-cylinder to four-cylinder turbo could make sense from a cost point of view. But four-cylinder to four-cylinder doesnt make sense, he said of reducing engine capacity and power.

You can make it bigger displacement with four-cylinder, that is cost-friendly. As long as you can get better fuel economy.

Obvious alternatives include a conventional turbo diesel drivetrain, as many competitor cars such as the Kia Sorento, Hyundai Santa Fe, Ford Territory and Holden Captiva offer.

But Moro said that due to the fact the CX-9 is most popular in the US and customers there choose petrol almost by default, a diesel CX-9 is unlikely.

With the CX-9 the main market is the USA. In general, these customers dont have a strong preference towards diesel engines. So probably the main engine should be a petrol engine in my opinion.

Moro said a diesel wasnt ruled out, and indeed it would be more likely than a hybrid powertrain, as competing vehicles like the Nissan Pathfinder hybrid and Toyota Kluger [Highlander] hybrid. Neither of those cars are currently sold in Australia, though the Nissan is expected to arrive this year.

A fuel-efficient petrol engine or diesel engine [would be preferable] where its possible. Hybrid is not really a high priority for us other than in the Japanese market, he said. It depends on the driving condition of each market. In Australia and the USA, people drive longer mileage, on the highway for example. I think real-world fuel economy, for example, a diesel engine would be better.

Despite the axe looming over the current V6 and plenty of alternatives being investigated, Mazda wont be moving away from six-cylinder engines altogether, according to Moro.

As Mazda is moving up towards premium territory, at some point in time we will need a six-cylinder, he said. Its too early, we dont have a car yet. But we are collecting advice as to V6 or straight six.

tex2670 · May 2, 2014

Cutting edge, or epic fail? Other than the FWD Explorer, I can't think of another SUV in this, or similarly sized class, that relies solely on a boosted 4 cylinder engine. Anyone?

IgoZoom · May 3, 2014

tex2670 said:
Cutting edge, or epic fail? Other than the FWD Explorer, I can't think of another SUV in this, or similarly sized class, that relies solely on a boosted 4 cylinder engine. Anyone?

The 2016 Volvo XC90 will be available with the same choice of two 2.0L 4-cylinder engines introduced on the 2015 S60 and V60 Drive-E models. The base engine is a turbocharged 240hp version and the option is a turbocharged and supercharged 302hp version of the same engine.

The 240hp turbocharged 2.0L is good for 258lb-ft of torque from 1500rpm, so it has plenty of low-end grunt. Paired with the new Aisin 8-speed automatic in the 3750lb V60 Wagon, it does 0-60 in 6.2 seconds.

If Mazda follows Volvos example, a 4-cylinder CX-9 could work out just fine. The big boost in fuel economy would definitely be welcome.
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nsbio · May 3, 2014

IgoZoom: It might pull nicely with a 4-cyl turbo, but I am not sure about a boost in fuel economy. Do you have an example of a turbocharged engine that meets EPA estimations in real life? Pretty much all of them fail to do so. As a result the new vehicle will have a higher number on the window sticker, but not in actual driving.

IgoZoom · May 3, 2014

nsbio said:
IgoZoom: It might pull nicely with a 4-cyl turbo, but I am not sure about a boost in fuel economy. Do you have an example of a turbocharged engine that meets EPA estimations in real life? Pretty much all of them fail to do so. As a result the new vehicle will have a higher number on the window sticker, but not in actual driving.

Using the Volvo V60 as an example again, the 240hp 2.0L turbocharged and intercooled 4-cylinder is rated at 25mpg city and 37mpg highway. Car & Driver observed 27mpg average overall under more aggressive than normal conditions.

That V60 is only 700lbs lighter than the current CX-9 and it’s a sure thing that the next CX-9 will be lighter than the current model. As much as a 500lb reduction might be possible. A 23mpg combined ‘real world’ mpg would be a huge improvement over the current CX-9. My 2012 CX-9 GT FWD is rated at 17mpg city and 24mpg highway, but I average in the mid-high 18s consistently.

I know that Ford’s EcoBoost engines have not delivered on their promise of fuel economy (or performance, in most cases). The Ford Edge FWD with the 2.0T is rated at 21/30mpg and Consumer Reports only managed 21mpg overall. That was only a 3mpg improvement over the AWD 3.5L V6 version, which is rated at a much lower 18/25mpg. But the FWD 2.0T was almost a full second slower 0-60 than the AWD V6, despite being 300lbs lighter. Slow and not very fuel-efficient,

Motor Trend tested a 2012 Explorer with the 2.0L EcoBoost and only managed 19.9mpg overall despite the 20mpg city and 28mpg highway rating. It also struggled from 0-60mph in a pokey 9.2 seconds. The garden variety Explorer with 3.5L V6 managed 18-19mpg overall and get to 60mph almost 1.5 seconds faster and costs $995 less to boot.
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Only time will tell, but I'm optimistic....

LH451 · May 3, 2014

I'm a 3rd gen mazda3 owner just snooping around and I must say that if they are going turbo it better be a 2 liter or larger since those seem to be only ones that are able to hit their mpg numbers more consistently. The new Volvo engines are pretty consistent both the turbo and twincharged engines. I'm sure Mazda can get great mpgs with turbo cars and I'm hoping they bring back the MS3 if they do go the turbo route for the next gen CX-9

IgoZoom · May 3, 2014

LH451 said:
I'm a 3rd gen mazda3 owner just snooping around and I must say that if they are going turbo it better be a 2 liter or larger since those seem to be only ones that are able to hit their mpg numbers more consistently. The new Volvo engines are pretty consistent both the turbo and twincharged engines. I'm sure Mazda can get great mpgs with turbo cars and I'm hoping they bring back the MS3 if they do go the turbo route for the next gen CX-9

I was a 1st gen Mazda3 (5-door, 5-speed manual) owner until last month. I bought it new in December 2005 and hated to part with it after 8.5 years (only 96k miles). But I promised my nephew that it would be his when he started driving and he just turned 15 and started taking driving lessons. I wanted him to learn how to drive on a manual transmission, just like his mom and I did. So my baby is his baby now! =)

I leased a new 2014 Mazda6 in January and got t-boned by a drunk driver several weeks ago in it. It was totaled but I walked away with only minor bruises and some burns from the side-impact airbags and curtain airbags. I'm planning to replace it with another 2014 Mazda6 in the next week or two.

But I also have 2012 CX-9 Grand Touring that I bought new in November 2012. If you can't tell, I'm a BIG fan of Mazda vehicles and they just keep getting better! Their post-Ford vehicles (CX-5, 2014 Mazda3 and 2014 Mazda6) are all best-in-class. It's amazing that a relatively small company with limited R&D budgets managed to design and engineer such exceptional products...but they did! =)

Several reliable sources have reported that a new Mazdaspeed3 will happen, but probably not until the 2017 or 2018 model year. Now that they've redesigned their models in the three most important segments (compact sedan/hatch, mid-size sedan and compact crossover/utility), the subcompact (Mazda2), new Miata, subcompact/small crossover (CX-3, if we get it) and large/full-size crossover (CX-9) are next in the pi Then they can afford to spend some time and resources on low-volume niche models, namely the Mazdaspeed3...and I'd love to see the Mazdaspeed6 get another chance.

Turbocharging the Skyactiv 2.0L/2.5L engines could present some challenges because they already have a high compression ratio. Adding a turbocharger, especially a high-pressure turbocharger to achieve the best performance, only increases internal pressure more....at least in theory. I look forward to seeing what materializes!

ceric · May 3, 2014

Turbo changing is possible but Mazda will have to lower the compression ratio below 11.
Turbo 2.5L is my guess for next CX9.

However, if Mazda wants to go more upscale, they will have to own a 6-cylinder engine.
Something like a Mazda9, for example.
Certainly, inline-6 will be a better engine than V6, which is only better from packaging perspective.

LH451 · May 4, 2014

They would have to for the sake of reliability among things. The highest I've seen on a turbo/supercharged car was 10.5:1 on the refreshed Nissan Juke's 1.6T. Both 2 liter and 2.5 would be good candidates for turbocharging and I'm sure they'll be more consistent with MPGs than Hyundai/Kia or Ford's attempts. Heck, Volvo seems to be the only one that's got consistent forced inducted motors in their line up. But then driving style does matter quite a bit! Also I suspect that somehow Mazda engineers got ahold of the new Volvo engines and dissected them and found a way to apply what they learned on the skyactiv gas engines.

I'm definitely a convert! Mazda's cars are all best in class and everyday I'm reminded of that driving my 3. Does everything excellently. Not to mention the gut feeling that's been telling me that the Skyactiv-G 2.5 is a little bit more powerful than what the spec sheet say is still there since I drove the car home

Regarding the Mazdaspeed3, they'd have to do what Subaru did with the WRX and offer an automatic option to widen its audience base and hopefully more sales that way it lessens the risk of it being a money loser. It'll still be an enthusiast oriented car, except having both skyactiv 6MT and 6AT will give it a broader appeal. Though they should stay with the hatch when picking body styles for a MS3 though.

The 6-cylinder will definitely be needed. If they don't go turbo, an I6 would be a very plausible solution for the CX-9 and even the Mazda6. A turbo-4 or I6 with anywhere from 270-300 hp should work fine for the CX-9. The I6 would be lighter too if I'm not mistaken, which won't warrant the need for an engine with more than 300hp. Whatever it will be, they're going to have to make sure it runs on 87 unless its a turbo-4 since the forced induction cars that don't hit their mpgs seem to be the one's that have been approved for 87 octane gas (Sonata, Fusion, Optima, Sportage, Escape, Explorer, Edge, Santa Fe Sport, etc.).

Could it be possible that they'll make both? the Mazdaspeed3 will need something in the ball park of 250-280hp and about equal torque (skyactiv-g 2.0T?) to compete against the Golf R, Focus ST and WRX. The Mazda6 just needs something more upmarket and a more powerful engine in addition to a diesel (skyactiv-g 2.5t or skyactiv-g I6?), while the CX-9 needs something torquey that's not diesel provided many people here still rely on petrol.

Mazda CX-9 : next-generation to drop V6

tex2670

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