I can spin the front tires on my AWD CX-9 .... is this normal for this AWD system?

[jal142]

Hmm... if the Mazda AWD was so smart (27 sensors, sending data 200 times per second) ... WHY power was not sent to the rear wheels that were firmly on the ground with full traction?

The whole point of having AWD is to be able to get out of slippery situation by counting on the wheels (could be 2 or 3 wheels only) that have any traction, right?? Wheel spin always happens because at least one wheel has lost traction. If the response is....well, your AWD Mazda got stuck because one wheel had no traction, then that is a very lame response/excuse. I would be equally screwed with a simple FWD system...why even bother buying an AWD Mazda, seriously?

Btw - i had all my wheels on the ground, in both situations! In the snow - the front wheels were sitting in deep snow and spinning. The rears were not moving and helping at all. No wheel was ever in the air.


From everything i have seen and experienced so far, i think Mazda simply fails to send enough power to the rear in slippery conditions. Maybe it is a limitation with the electric clutches in the tiny rear differential, maybe it is something else.... but i am pretty sure the rear never gets enough power to "push" the car out of a slippery spot, UNLESS the front wheels also have some traction. It feels as if one of the front wheels loses traction 100%, the power to the rear is just not enough to help or it gets cut off completely to prevent damage to rear drive train. My 2 cents....and i'll have a great way to test this soon. (ramp with rollers)

Did you watch the videos in this post? https://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...road-test-Fail! Specifically, the second one (here: https://youtu.be/VF6nRPD_xyM)? The first comment on the second video explains the logic behind Mazda's AWD and traction control system tuning.

Long story short, the traction control system is programmed to allow quite a bit of wheelspin. They supposedly changed the tuning on the 2018, which won't help you much.

 

[tekz]

Interesting. If this is really the case and you never got only front wheel spin, even for 1-2 seconds, then my car has a problem.

Same here with my 2017 Signature...never experienced only front wheels spinning although I've had vehicle for 1.5yrs and gone thru 2 winters and never really driven on hills to be able to test the AWD. What I can say though is compared to the 1st winter where I really didn't like the Falkens A/S tires as not enough grip I switched to Nokians all weather tires in the fall prior to 2nd winter and those tires performed much better this past winter.

As for the AWD I did feel all the tires engaging in slippery/icy roads and never really had issues moving off the line in fact leaving other FWD vehicles. There was only a time when the traction control kicked in i guess coz the road was just too icy and i punched the throttle a bit heavily off the line.

My take on it was when I bought the vehicle, it was more of the other attributes the CX9 had while just having a capable AWD was enough for me as I don't go off-roading or climbing hills during winter. If my priority was buying a vehicle coz of the AWD then the CX9 wouldn't be my first choice as there are much better systems out there (like Subaru).

At end of the day, the i-active AWD mazda advertises is only a mktg gimmick same as with most of the AWD systems used by other brands as these so called AWD units are provided by other suppliers and not built in-house by the car manufacturers (more like a plug and play unit). Sure manufacturers can do some tweaks on the programming but the unit-mech design and parts all provided by AWD suppliers.

 

[Nelson de Leon]

The Hyundai SantaFe that my wife and I were looking at also had a diff lock button. I was kinda digging that.
So let's talk manual overrides. What can we do to fool the Mazda system into favoring the rear wheels more?
It's computer controlled. The computer reads sensors and takes that input to make the decision.

IF sensors indicate XXX conditions.
THEN engage rear wheels.
ELSE FWD only.

We can easily override the outdoor temp sensor to make the car think it's freezing.
The wipers are rain sensing, but I suppose we can turn the wipers on high, manually from inside the car.

What other sensors does it read?



OR There is another option:

Instead of fooling it on the front end, you fool it on the back end.
The rear driveshaft spins with engine power at all times. It's the electrically actuated clutch pack in front of the rear diff that controls power application to the rear wheels.
The computer likely sends a PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) signal to that clutch pack to control lock up and thusly power split.
Just send a 100% duty cycle signal (Straight 12 volts) to the clutch pack to engage it fully and have full time 4WD.

Should be easy to put as a dashboard switch.

This time I'm subscribing to this topic.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

Seems counterintuitive but sometimes a little foot pressure on the brake while also on power can force power away from the slipping wheels to ones with traction if you are in a situation where no progress is being made.

 

[Srad600]

Seems counterintuitive but sometimes a little foot pressure on the brake while also on power can force power away from the slipping wheels to ones with traction if you are in a situation where no progress is being made.

I agree. At least in dry conditions I’ve noticed the car will launch harder with no/little wheel spin if I hold the brake while bringing up the RPMs.

Also, I agree that the TC is part of the issue. I’ve gone off road and on steep climbs the car refused to move when the wheels started to spin. I turned off the TC and that helped a lot.

 

[jal142]

At end of the day, the i-active AWD mazda advertises is only a mktg gimmick same as with most of the AWD systems used by other brands as these so called AWD units are provided by other suppliers and not built in-house by the car manufacturers (more like a plug and play unit). Sure manufacturers can do some tweaks on the programming but the unit-mech design and parts all provided by AWD suppliers.

Yes, Mazda itself admits as much (quote from Dave Coleman, an engineer at Mazda USA):

"It seems like the traction control system should be able to identify this completely unloaded situation and treat it differently, but we are constrained by the architecture of the traction control system supplier (most manufacturers don't make their own traction control systems, they simply apply their tuning to a system made by a specialist supplier)."

So there you go. I wonder how much these systems actually cost Mazda, versus how much they can bump the MSRP when the vehicle is "AWD" vs. FWD. It must be pretty profitable.

 

[dougal]

Yes, Mazda itself admits as much (quote from Dave Coleman, an engineer at Mazda USA):

"It seems like the traction control system should be able to identify this completely unloaded situation and treat it differently, but we are constrained by the architecture of the traction control system supplier (most manufacturers don't make their own traction control systems, they simply apply their tuning to a system made by a specialist supplier)."

So there you go. I wonder how much these systems actually cost Mazda, versus how much they can bump the MSRP when the vehicle is "AWD" vs. FWD. It must be pretty profitable.

Yup, that is why they are all the same. They can all be tuned to do slightly different things, but they are all similar. The CX-9 is a family hauler - not a off road machine. They want you to know the front wheels are spinning so that you think about what you are doing and where you are going.

 

[Srad600]

Yup*snip*They want you to know the front wheels are spinning so that you think about what you are doing and where you are going.

This wouldn't be a smart move on Mazda's part. Charge someone extra for AWD, then design it so that it doesn't work intentionally? They'd get their pants sued off...class action anyone? Sounds like there are a few inherant limitations based on the hardware, that Mazda (and others) have tried to solve with software. Imperfect system...yes. But it does work.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

I wonder if some of this is related to the transmission setup? The SKYACTIV definitely isn't a DSG but it is more complicated than your typical TC control slush-box. I thought I remember in that diagonal traction CX-9 YouTube video that Dave Coleman commented to video poster on...he mentioned something about not wanting to stall the motor out with traction control by applying too much braking. Perhaps that is piece of the puzzle. The ATRAC on my Toyota can be made to do lots of things. It's just a matter of programming. I'd be curious to try out the new '18+ programming with TCS off on the CX-5 versus my '15. I use the brake trick a lot even off-road.

 

[dougal]

This wouldn't be a smart move on Mazda's part. Charge someone extra for AWD, then design it so that it doesn't work intentionally? They'd get their pants sued off...class action anyone? Sounds like there are a few inherant limitations based on the hardware, that Mazda (and others) have tried to solve with software. Imperfect system...yes. But it does work.

Nobody says it does not work. If you watch that video (see my earlier post), you can clearly see it works and works well. But this is a street SUV.

 

[tekz]

Yup, that is why they are all the same. They can all be tuned to do slightly different things, but they are all similar. The CX-9 is a family hauler - not a off road machine. They want you to know the front wheels are spinning so that you think about what you are doing and where you are going.

Maybe Mazda needs to tweak the programming on this AWD system a bit more...but yes they are also limited on what they have (unit) same as with all other manufacturers. That's why I mentioned on my post earlier that the AWD wasn't my priority when I bought the CX9 and of course it'll depend on your use...if it was then there are better units out there like Subaru or Acura's SH AWD. Even the VW's 4motion and Audi's Quattro are plug and play units and not built/developed in-house (use Tor-sen or Haldex). At the end of the day it comes down to cost...maybe a lot cheaper for them to buy a plug and play and tweak the programming to make it appear a bit diff and charge a bit of profit vs building and developing AWD systems in-house not like what they did with their Sky-activ engines, transmission, etc.

 

[norsairius]

... They supposedly changed the tuning on the 2018, which won't help you much.

Interesting! I’m not doubting you, but I wanted to see if I could find out more and I couldn’t find anything on this. I’m curious to know more though!

That aside, a couple relevant things I did find:
https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/th...2017-mazda-cx-5-unlocks-secret-off-road-mode/

https://www.reddit.com/r/CX5/commen...f_road_mode_thoughts/?st=JJ4B9TSJ&sh=5c188527

 

[dougal]

Maybe Mazda needs to tweak the programming on this AWD system a bit more...but yes they are also limited on what they have (unit) same as with all other manufacturers. That's why I mentioned on my post earlier that the AWD wasn't my priority when I bought the CX9 and of course it'll depend on your use...if it was then there are better units out there like Subaru or Acura's SH AWD. Even the VW's 4motion and Audi's Quattro are plug and play units and not built/developed in-house (use Tor-sen or Haldex). At the end of the day it comes down to cost...maybe a lot cheaper for them to buy a plug and play and tweak the programming to make it appear a bit diff and charge a bit of profit vs building and developing AWD systems in-house not like what they did with their Sky-activ engines, transmission, etc.

My old Subaru's used to have simple viscous coupling based systems that were 50/50 until wheel slippage would force power to the opposite end. You needed a good bit of time (3-4) seconds but the system worked. The only negative was that the fluid would burn out and cause issues but overall, that was the best system I ever had. I think the electronic systems use a 80/20 system but might even still be 50/50.

But I think you are right. It is all about cost and I don't think Mazda has the resources to use something as complicated as the SH AWD system found in the Acura.

 

[Srad600]

Since we seem to have lost a few posts with the "technical difficulties", just thought I'd add back this link to the AWD "off road mode" for posterity.

https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/th...2017-mazda-cx-5-unlocks-secret-off-road-mode/

Relevant text:
While most of the time a crossover may never leave the pavement, its not to say that it wont ever. Families go camping; sometimes, drivers just make turns down a road less traveled. A crossover SUV is capable, but our engineers are always looking to stretch that capability even further.

When all four wheels are on the ground, i-ACTIV AWD is so good at controlling front/rear torque split that it doesnt need a special off-road mode. If conditions are so slick that it needs to lock the torque coupling completely, it can do that, automatically, in a fraction of a second.

In rare cases on uneven paths when a wheel could leave the ground, i-ACTIV AWD will sense that wheelspin and lock the torque coupling so the front and rear wheels go the same speed.

But on especially rough terrain, this might not be enough. Imagine a wobbly restaurant table with a matchbook wedged under its short leg to keep it from rocking. If you take that matchbook out, the air under that table leg is like the air under your tire in that diagonal twist. Now, what happens when the table rocks, and that leg comes down? The opposite leg goes up. The same thing happens in a diagonal twist. If one tire comes off the ground, the opposite tire also comes off the ground, or at least gets very light.

So even if the torque coupling that drives power to the axles forces the front and rear tires go to the same speed, if one front tire and one rear tire are in the air, those airborne tires can still spin freely. To stop them, we have to use the traction control system to apply the brakes to the spinning tires, forcing torque over to the tires that are on the ground.

In any other situation, we want the traction control system to apply the brakes as smoothly as possible, so theres no interruption in the drivers control of the car. But in situations where an abrupt power shift is necessarylike this diagonal twist off-road situationpressing the TCS OFF button actually switches the CX-5 to a mode that simulates locking differentials via the brakes, sending power to the wheels on the ground.

Much as most every modern crossover SUV, a full off-road-style locking differential that equally transfers power at low speeds to all four wheels is heavy and inefficient. However, with its trick technology, the net effect of the CX-5s clever i-ACTIV AWD is that, like the rest of the vehicle, it helps the CX-5 punch far above its weight.

 

[danmm7]

Since we seem to have lost a few posts with the "technical difficulties", just thought I'd add back this link to the AWD "off road mode" for posterity.

https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/th...2017-mazda-cx-5-unlocks-secret-off-road-mode/

Relevant text:
...

[/COLOR]

This all sounds great on paper but the reality is a bit different. The AWD system in my CX-9 simply behaves like a FWD setup. I don't see and feel anything "smart" or fast / pro-active about it. Here is a fresh example. About 3 hours ago, i was putting gas in my car. As i was leaving the gas station i had to merge into a very busy main road so i jumped on the gas pedal. Sure enough, i got some very noticeable front tire wheel spin and the car also pulled to one side and i had to correct it with the steering wheel. So not only i had obvious wheel spin on the front wheels, over normal, DRY asphalt, but i had to deal with torque steer too. If this was a FWD car, no big deal. In a AWD car - i expect better.
I had a passenger in the car who witnessed this behavior. He was also surprised that i got to deal with wheel spin in a AWD car. Again, we are talking, dry, clean road surface.
Just for reference, my Audi S4, with 400+ hp, in a similar scenario, even if i jumped on the gas 100%, it would never do this - no wheel spin, no torque steer. All four wheels bite right away and i could merge on any road at full throttle with ZERO drama...even in rain. The quattro awd system is so much better, even with all the extra power.

 

[mazdadude]

This all sounds great on paper but the reality is a bit different. The AWD system in my CX-9 simply behaves like a FWD setup. I don't see and feel anything "smart" or fast / pro-active about it. Here is a fresh example. About 3 hours ago, i was putting gas in my car. As i was leaving the gas station i had to merge into a very busy main road so i jumped on the gas pedal. Sure enough, i got some very noticeable front tire wheel spin and the car also pulled to one side and i had to correct it with the steering wheel. So not only i had obvious wheel spin on the front wheels, over normal, DRY asphalt, but i had to deal with torque steer too. If this was a FWD car, no big deal. In a AWD car - i expect better.
I had a passenger in the car who witnessed this behavior. He was also surprised that i got to deal with wheel spin in a AWD car. Again, we are talking, dry, clean road surface.
Just for reference, my Audi S4, with 400+ hp, in a similar scenario, even if i jumped on the gas 100%, it would never do this - no wheel spin, no torque steer. All four wheels bite right away and i could merge on any road at full throttle with ZERO drama...even in rain. The quattro awd system is so much better, even with all the extra power.

Is yours really an AWD model? Perhaps somebody might have stuck an AWD decal on it? It does not sound like it is operating.

My 2 CX-5's with AWD have driven just like your Audi that you described. No wheel spin, no drama, dry or wet, from WOT launches.

 

[Fruitwolf]

This all sounds great on paper but the reality is a bit different. The AWD system in my CX-9 simply behaves like a FWD setup. I don't see and feel anything "smart" or fast / pro-active about it. Here is a fresh example. About 3 hours ago, i was putting gas in my car. As i was leaving the gas station i had to merge into a very busy main road so i jumped on the gas pedal. Sure enough, i got some very noticeable front tire wheel spin and the car also pulled to one side and i had to correct it with the steering wheel. So not only i had obvious wheel spin on the front wheels, over normal, DRY asphalt, but i had to deal with torque steer too. If this was a FWD car, no big deal. In a AWD car - i expect better.
I had a passenger in the car who witnessed this behavior. He was also surprised that i got to deal with wheel spin in a AWD car. Again, we are talking, dry, clean road surface.
Just for reference, my Audi S4, with 400+ hp, in a similar scenario, even if i jumped on the gas 100%, it would never do this - no wheel spin, no torque steer. All four wheels bite right away and i could merge on any road at full throttle with ZERO drama...even in rain. The quattro awd system is so much better, even with all the extra power.

On occasion, I've had the EXACT same thing happen. Dry pavement, quick acceleration into traffic, front wheel spin with a slight pull, all the same as you. I will admit, having to correct the steering as much as I did freaked me out a little.

 

[Chris_Top_Her]

Try approaching with tcs off

 

[norsairius]

The main reason why the CX-5 does not spin its tires as easily is probably because its engine makes a lot less torque than the CX-9's. The CX-9's engine is designed to provide a lot of torque at low RPMs with its peak of 310 lb-ft coming in at 2000 RPM, which comes really quickly. The CX-5's 186 lb-ft peak torque comes at 4000 RPM.

I understand the concern that the AWD system may not perform as desired depending on prior experience with other systems, as my CX-9 has me missing xDrive sometimes, but as long as it works through inclement weather as I expect it will (and has already through heavy rain for me), then it doesn't matter if it occasionally spins its wheels when accelerating/turning from a stop (at least to me). A bit more finesse with the gas pedal can fix that too. Sure, the electronics can help to an extent, but the driver can do something about it too, right?

Mazda's AWD system is ultimately FWD-based and biased. Mazda's claim is that a number of sensors and computers will help hide that fact, but the reality unfortunately shows that to not be the case sometimes. Based on my own experiences, Mazda's system is better than some FWD-based AWD systems (like Honda's), but not as good as Subaru's, Audi's, or BMW's AWD systems in various situations. I don't believe Mazda's AWD will be so deficient compared to others though that it will let me down the first time it snows though. The number of CX-5s I see here in the upper midwest is evidence enough that people get by just fine.

I don't mean to bash anyone for their concerns about Mazda's AWD, but my intent here is to say that you shouldn't need to worry too much. Maybe try adjusting your driving habits from other vehicles a bit when you're in the Mazda and you may find yourself enjoying the vehicle more. I know that can be difficult, as it was for me, but it's helped. Mazda makes a great vehicle, but changing between brands, vehicle types, etc. will require some adjustment no matter what your switching to/from. Despite the fact that I wish I had BMW's xDrive again sometimes, I also find myself not missing my BMW as much as I thought it would.

 

[Srad600]

This all sounds great on paper but the reality is a bit different. The AWD system in my CX-9 simply behaves like a FWD setup. I don't see and feel anything "smart" or fast / pro-active about it. Here is a fresh example. About 3 hours ago, i was putting gas in my car. As i was leaving the gas station i had to merge into a very busy main road so i jumped on the gas pedal. Sure enough, i got some very noticeable front tire wheel spin and the car also pulled to one side and i had to correct it with the steering wheel. So not only i had obvious wheel spin on the front wheels, over normal, DRY asphalt, but i had to deal with torque steer too. If this was a FWD car, no big deal. In a AWD car - i expect better.
I had a passenger in the car who witnessed this behavior. He was also surprised that i got to deal with wheel spin in a AWD car. Again, we are talking, dry, clean road surface.
Just for reference, my Audi S4, with 400+ hp, in a similar scenario, even if i jumped on the gas 100%, it would never do this - no wheel spin, no torque steer. All four wheels bite right away and i could merge on any road at full throttle with ZERO drama...even in rain. The quattro awd system is so much better, even with all the extra power.

Again, I agree with the highlighted portion, it's happened to me as well. But next time you're in the same situation try applying the brake with your left foot and gas with your right, once the rpms come up a bit release the brake to lauch. In my experience this somehow forces the torque split to the rear wheels faster than if you just stomp the pedal. No front wheelspin, the car just goes.

I see what you're getting at, I've had 4wd jeeps, Audi Coupes, even a little subaru...all of which never spun a tire on dry pavement unless I was doing something really stupid (which may have happened on occasion) but those are dedicated 4wd systems. The two systems both have their place, and I believe they both work, just in slightly different ways.