Cryo treated gears vs GTX gears

[Bigg Tim]

So I am building up a tranny and was planning on getting my stock gears cryo treated because it is said that cryo treating can strengthen metal up to 300%. I know there was a debate on this a while ago, but does anyone have first hand knowledge that cryo treating won't strengthen the gears to make them stronger then the GTX set? I know the guys in Puerto Rico use the GTX set's, but has anyone tested a cryo'd set to see how strong they are?

I have a spare tranny so it is more cost effective to get all the internals treated vs just getting the GTX set. The company I have been talking to about cryo treating the internals has done a lot of trannies and they claim that they make the gears much stronger because it makes the internal molecules might tighter, thus making the material much stronger. I have also heard that a combination of cryo treatment, then shot peening (sp) will make it even stronger because the cryo strengthen's it from the inside and the shot peen (sp) strengthen's it from the outside.

 

[TurfBurn]

It will NOT strengthen the gears.. it cannot and will not.. It will to some extents potentially relieve some minor stresses that can lead to surface cracks that can ultimately lead to failure, but it can not increase the actual strength of the gears. Plain and simple... it's can help with surface imperfections and dimensional stability... but that's it.

 

[Bigg Tim]

It will NOT strengthen the gears.. it cannot and will not.. It will to some extents potentially relieve some minor stresses that can lead to surface cracks that can ultimately lead to failure, but it can not increase the actual strength of the gears. Plain and simple... it's can help with surface imperfections and dimensional stability... but that's it.

How can't it strengthen them? It freezes the material which makes the molcules get closer. So with closer molecules it should be stronger, no? The reason the GTX gears are stronger is because they are a little wider right?

Here is part of what they say on the website http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/:

"Our precise deep cryogenic process creates a denser, more uniform grain structure that allows heat to be dissipated more quickly and uniformly. This tighter molecular structure also increases strength, wear life, and cycle fatigue life. Engine, piston, cranks, rods, cams, radiators, gears, axles, brake rotors, calipers, brake pads, clutches, friction disks, etc. can all be processed with fantastic results."

If you say it doesn't, then why is there a lot of people who do this? I'm just trying to get all the info, not being a dick(thumb)

 

[CWiLL]

i always thought that cryoing gear would help gears but havent tried it, i almost did but didnt. bigg tim im with u on this one i think u should try it

 

[Bala]

I have been cryo treating my brakes for years and I can tell you that it doubles service life in this application. I use this place: http://www.nwcryo.com/index.html
It's local for me so I drive the parts over. If you sift through the site, you'll find that some of his customers have had good results from treating gears.

 

[apocman]

I feel Cryo is a very good thing... I also think shot-peening or dual shot-peening has it's pluses as well....

 

[TurfBurn]

LOL... you can't make the molecules closer... sorry I'm laughing really hard on this side.. the BS they feed is so ridiculous sometimes..

Think about this you have a fixed amount of mass and if you made it closer together it would make it more dense and would reduce the overall size of the part... but what they are claiming is a denser grain structure.. not denser material... but what is humorous about that is there is NO proof of that... microscopic analysis etc has been done and there is no apparent differences in the grain structure. Additionally the brinell hardness etc has shown no significant changes etc which further confirms that it structurally does not make an impact.

 

[65racecoupe]

LOL... you can't make the molecules closer... sorry I'm laughing really hard on this side.. the BS they feed is so ridiculous sometimes..

Think about this you have a fixed amount of mass and if you made it closer together it would make it more dense and would reduce the overall size of the part... but what they are claiming is a denser grain structure.. not denser material... but what is humorous about that is there is NO proof of that... microscopic analysis etc has been done and there is no apparent differences in the grain structure. Additionally the brinell hardness etc has shown no significant changes etc which further confirms that it structurally does not make an impact.

That is what I was thinking.

But, I be no scientist, so....

Does anyone have any real world personal experiences with cryo, shot peening, etc?

 

[tekkie]

I dont know if it works or not, I have heard mixed things

but ever single shop that I spoke to about doing tranny gears said dont do it because they said the gears are actually more prone to breaking afterwards, they said if you mis-shift the gears blow up

so I am not taking any chances and will get the gtx gears

 

[Bigg Tim]

LOL... you can't make the molecules closer... sorry I'm laughing really hard on this side.. the BS they feed is so ridiculous sometimes..

Think about this you have a fixed amount of mass and if you made it closer together it would make it more dense and would reduce the overall size of the part... but what they are claiming is a denser grain structure.. not denser material... but what is humorous about that is there is NO proof of that... microscopic analysis etc has been done and there is no apparent differences in the grain structure. Additionally the brinell hardness etc has shown no significant changes etc which further confirms that it structurally does not make an impact.

If you look at that link I posted, there is a 1000x microscopic comparison of a before and after.

Laugh all you want, but I asked for someone with actual experience, not someone who read a book and thinks that's all he needs to know. We all know you read very well, but reading a book and having actual real world experience is two different things.

You would think that if it does make the item more prone to breaking, then why do the rotors last longer? I think brakes get a pretty hard beating on them so you would think they would brake no?

 

[SNike05]

I also think shot-peening or dual shot-peening has it's pluses as well....

Yes this will be the best way to strenghthen metal. We do this at our company to strenghthen aerospace parts.

 

[Bigg Tim]

Yes this will be the best way to strenghthen metal. We do this at our company to strenghthen aerospace parts.

Have you ever shot peen'd a part after it was cryo'd? Have you done any test's to see how strong it was before and after your process?

 

[spacemonkey]

Turbo magazine did a cryo treat ariticle.

They talked about the crazy competative world of tractor trailor pulling. Where you have crazy trailer with massive amounts of torque pulling really heavy things.

They say on average a transimssion only last one or two runs then the tranny is completely gone. After cryo treating the trailors average 10 runs. I can search for the article since I bought the magazine becasue they had a test on fuel pumps (which brand is good etc). It was a pretty cool article explaining the process and everything.

 

[SNike05]

Have you ever shot peen'd a part after it was cryo'd? Have you done any test's to see how strong it was before and after your process?

No we have never received a cryo treated part at least to my knowledge we have not. Because simply cooling a metal is not that affective.

I am studying metallurgy right now. I have also done tests on sample metal and non metal peices where we have dipped them into liquid nitrogen and then tested there physical properties. In metals we tested 6061 Aluminum Alloy and 1020 mild steel. Toughness is defined as the ability of a metal to distribute stress and strain within itself at the time of a sudden impact. Toughness is the exact opposite of brittleness. A material that is brittle will only resist an impact according to its limit of elasticity before it fails. The most popular type of toughness is the impact toughness. The most widely used and known impact toughness technique is the Charpy Impact test.


After performing the above mentioned technique on the cold metals (test was also perfomred with heated metals) the results were:

Most Ductile to most brittle (Cold)<o =""></o>

• Aluminum
• Glass fibre composite
• Steel
• Polyethylene

Basically the conclusion was that Steel becomes very brittle when cooled down. Now if you were to heat the metal such as steel to its austenite phase and then quench it into a cold liquid the steel changes phases to martenite. Which is a very hard and strong phase.

Without heating or cooling a very effective way to strenghthen metal is shot-peening. Which gives the metals surface a golf ball appearance at the microscopic level and in turn increasing its strength.
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[Jeph]

Interesting conversation. I want to know how it turns out if you do cryo them Tim

 

[Little Beavis]

If you look at that link I posted, there is a 1000x microscopic comparison of a before and after.

Laugh all you want, but I asked for someone with actual experience, not someone who read a book and thinks that's all he needs to know. We all know you read very well, but reading a book and having actual real world experience is two different things.

You would think that if it does make the item more prone to breaking, then why do the rotors last longer? I think brakes get a pretty hard beating on them so you would think they would brake no?

Crap, everyone needs to play nice.

The facts are (from someone smarter than myself or even Turfburn since you're replying to his commend) is that this is a black magic idea. By being magic it is just that. If you want to see a difference you can, if you don't want to see a difference you won't. It is much like spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a mod for your car and justifying it in your mind that it makes a difference.

And on the pissing matches that go on here. Last I knew, books were written by people that knew a little more than then "Joe-Bob" working in his garage with "real world" experience. Changing the content of martensite, ferrite, and austenite in a steel is not something that can be accomplished via freezing. Could it possibly make things "shrink up and get tighter", sure, if the original heat treating process was a total piece of crap and done by the previously mentioned "Joe-Bob" (no offense to those with that name or who know someone with that name). So, on gears which are heat treated very carefully, the gains will be non-existant (in my opinion) save for maybe some surface imperfections. On brakes, which do not go through some special heat treating process, there is a gain to be had.

If you feel that you know more or have proof that it works from someone that isn't selling it, hasn't spend their hard earned money on it (and thus feels compelled to say their money was well spent), I'd be all ears (or eyes in this case) to check it out. We've seen plenty of BS claims on the forum before, the problem here is that this one is "extra" technical and harder to debunk, but it is even harder to prove. But hey, what the @#$% do I know, I just read books, build tons of tooling, and have an engineering degree - and that doesn't count because it isn't real world and we all know they're two different things!

 

[orphman]

i want to know to.. started thred while back on same issue.. seems to be more support for chryo now... interested

 

[lcruz64]

No, we don't send your items to the moon! We place them in a processor where they are gradually cooled with nitrogen gas to -300 degrees Fahrenheit. That temperature is maintained for at least eight hours. The length of time varies by material and desired results.

After the cooling cycle is complete, the item is slowly warmed back to room temperature. Then the object is heat-treated, with temperatures of 100 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on the composition of the item. Finally, the item is gradually returned to room temperature. The complete process takes a minimum of 24 hours.

Q. Do you immerse the parts in liquid nitrogen?

A. No. Our process is completely dry. Parts never come in contact with liquid.

Q. Will the cryogenic process increase hardness?

A. No. There is no significant increase in the hardness of treated parts. Some metals may see 1 or 2 points of increase on the Rockwell scale. More importantly, though, the part becomes more uniform and the hardness becomes consistent throughout the part.

It looks to me that just like shot-peening or dual shot-peening what this process does is enable the metals to handle stress more efficiently than in it's raw form.

 

[Bigg Tim]

That's why I made this thread, to see who has done this and what are the results. The GTX gears have been used in Puerto Rico on high HP motors with luck. So I would call that real world experience. I only know of 1 guy who has cryo treated the tranny, the guy with the yellow P5 in Vegas, and I was hoping to hear something from him since he has realworld experience.

This was not to be a pissing match or intended to piss anyone off. I can go read about it and listen to what the sellers tell me all day, but the best proof is someone who has actually done this. I could care less what some smart person said, because there's always someone else who will say something different. Unless they have done the exact process to the exact type of part, they don't have realworld experience.

The process they told me about was something like heating it up to some high degree at no more then 1 degree a minute then letting it sit. Then colling it to some low degree at no more then 1 degree per minute and letting it sit for 24hrs. Yes there can be things said either way, but I wanted to hear some personal experiences if there are any. If I was just going to believe what 1 or 2 people told me, then it would have already been done. I'm just searching for info and it's not set in stone yet as to what I want to do.

I appreciate everyones input, but to laugh at asking a question is BS IMO. If I took it the wrong way then I apologize. This forum was a great place to get info once, I guess it is no longer.

 

[smo0f]

tim i'm kind of with you on this one. i hate looking up threads where people asked questions, expecting to find an answer, all i see is hypothetics and theories and probably's and maybes and most likelys. This is no one's fault really because not many people have taken the initiative here to do many of this stuff. I would msg idgsrail (i know i just killed his name), and the yellow p5 from vegas and see what they have to say. if it's something useful, put it here please.