Contemplating an '09 Speed...have a few questions based on research.

[mikelebz]

Hello all. I am contemplating ditching my NA 3 for a speed, however I have done some research on the mods I am contemplating and I have a few questions:

I am very fond of my corksport catback + racepipe right now. I saw that CS sells a turbo-back for the speeds, however based on my research, people with the downpipes are getting smoking turbos. Is this a general consensus? Is this TBE not recommended? Should I just go for the racepipe and catback instead? or downpipe, high-flow cat, and catback? I would like to go for the catless setup, however I want to safely squeeze out as much power from this car as I possibly can.

My plans would be:
-This exhaust setup
-CS short ram intake (and TIP that comes with it)
- hypertech tune

nothing too crazy and call it a day.


basically what I am asking is the preferred safe combo of the the exhaust pieces. or a confirmation that a catless setup is safe.


thanks all,
Mike

 

[kpuser1]

Tough call, I think it's hit or miss with smoking. I was smoking with stock exhaust and more freqently with catless midpipe.
It's amazing how much the cats prevent smoke. I got the tsb for the smoke done(valve cover) which stopped the smoke.

 

[MSMS3]

Maybe a bit more research? Glad to hear you are looking to move into the turbocharged DISI engine platform. Please know that the exhaust restrictions are upstream of the CBE. We show almost no gains by replacing the CBE and that is an expensive mod with no real benefit beyond a change in sound.

The smoking turbo issue is very complex and not easily explained in a short response. You need to do a lot of reading on this. There is a slight increased risk of smoking by removing those restrictions with a good downpipe and race pipe. But raising your idle rpm does wonders for solving this problem for most people. The Hypertech tune will let you raise idle by up to 200 rpm, as I have done. I never did smoke, but since the problem is mostly related to PCV operation, increasing idle seems to take care of this for most.

I'm totally catless and do not smoke and never have. You might get a little bit of temporary "smoke" from a new downpipe just because some oily preservatives might need to be burned off right after install.

If you want to be safe, just go with the intake mods and HT tune for now. Don't rule out a good catless (if you don't have emission testing in your state) or catted bellmouth 3 inch downpipe and racepipe into the stock CBE. It's a good combo. With upped idle speed, chances are low that you will smoke. Full TBE is not worth the extra cost for reasons stated above.

Also, turbo inlet pipe does not really produce any power gains on this engine. Not even with higher flowing exhaust mods. Regardless of the criticism of the shape of the stock inlet, it flows better than the little K04 turbo can handle. The most to expect from a TIP is slightly quicker spool time. But this turbo spools super fast to begin with. Once you get the access to full boost in first and second with the HT tune, slight changes in spool time are pretty meaningless, IMHO. If you are getting the inlet as a part of a package, then that's fine. I would not and have not been willing to pay extra for it. And there is risk of "collateral damage" during a remove and replace of the inlet pipe. Might want to research that too.

You'll really like the MS3. It can be made a lot quicker for very modest investments in carefully chosen, coordinated and safe mods. But it can be turned into a zoom, zoom, boom situation if you don't do your homework. Enjoy.

 

[mikelebz]

Maybe a bit more research? Glad to hear you are looking to move into the turbocharged DISI engine platform. Please know that the exhaust restrictions are upstream of the CBE. We show almost no gains by replacing the CBE and that is an expensive mod with no real benefit beyond a change in sound.

The smoking turbo issue is very complex and not easily explained in a short response. You need to do a lot of reading on this. There is a slight increased risk of smoking by removing those restrictions with a good downpipe and race pipe. But raising your idle rpm does wonders for solving this problem for most people. The Hypertech tune will let you raise idle by up to 200 rpm, as I have done. I never did smoke, but since the problem is mostly related to PCV operation, increasing idle seems to take care of this for most.

I'm totally catless and do not smoke and never have. You might get a little bit of temporary "smoke" from a new downpipe just because some oily preservatives might need to be burned off right after install.

If you want to be safe, just go with the intake mods and HT tune for now. Don't rule out a good catless (if you don't have emission testing in your state) or catted bellmouth 3 inch downpipe and racepipe into the stock CBE. It's a good combo. With upped idle speed, chances are low that you will smoke. Full TBE is not worth the extra cost for reasons stated above.

Also, turbo inlet pipe does not really produce any power gains on this engine. Not even with higher flowing exhaust mods. Regardless of the criticism of the shape of the stock inlet, it flows better than the little K04 turbo can handle. The most to expect from a TIP is slightly quicker spool time. But this turbo spools super fast to begin with. Once you get the access to full boost in first and second with the HT tune, slight changes in spool time are pretty meaningless, IMHO. If you are getting the inlet as a part of a package, then that's fine. I would not and have not been willing to pay extra for it. And there is risk of "collateral damage" during a remove and replace of the inlet pipe. Might want to research that too.

You'll really like the MS3. It can be made a lot quicker for very modest investments in carefully chosen, coordinated and safe mods. But it can be turned into a zoom, zoom, boom situation if you don't do your homework. Enjoy.

Thank you very much for your informative answer... as for the TIP, it comes as a package with the CS SRI for 250. And as for the exhaust components, you suggest catless DP and RP to the stock exhaust? I am in an emissions controlled state, however if this does not throw a CEL (which corksport claims it does not) ,I will be fine. Furthermore, I have someone who will pass my inspection regardless and clear the light while he is at it.. (does hypertech clear codes?)

Anyways, downpipe, racepipe, and bumping idle rpm up to 200, I ought to be fine?

also, would you mind informing me of what exactly a smoking turbo is and why it occurs as you seem to be quite knowledgeable of the subject? and is it detrimental? and what you mean by upstream restrictions in the CBE and why an aftermarket one would not solve these issues or why it it not worth it to get an aftermarket CBE to solve them.

Thank you very much for your informative responses,
Mike

 

[MSMS3]

Better read all the threads on "smoking turbo." Lots of different opinions. My belief it that it is almost never the turbo but a really poorly designed positive crankcase ventillation system on the gen 1 cars. Raising idle seems to help quite a bit because the "smoke" tends to be oil getting pushed past the turbo seals when at idle after hard running due to the inabilility of the PCV system to adequately vent the high pressure that develops in the crankcase.

Debatable as to whether the issue is detrimental. I would think that eventually, the turbo seals would fail. However most turbos that have been replaced have turned out to be fine. If you really want to "cure" the problem, Mazda now has a reliable but expensive fix which involves a different valve cover with a relocated path and routing of the PCV valve. I think it'll set you back maybe $600. Never was the turbo. Not worth it to me.

AP and HT both have ability to raise idle rpm, along with a lot of other features. I went the conservative route with HT and am very happy with it. Others want to be more aggressive and custom tune. AP is more robust, can make a bit more maximum power and potentially more dangerous for zoom, zoom, boom, if not careful. Also, raising idle rpm helps eliminate the vibes you get from an upgraded rear motor mount.

The stock CBE has a higher flow rate than the maximum exhaust through-put from the K04 turbo. It is excellent. It is the horrible shape of the stock downpipe and the low flow cats in the downpipe and the racepipe that rob power.

As to throwing a CEL, that's a chance. The TurboXS catless downpipe I run has a raised or extended 02 sensor bung that does a good, but not always perfect job of eliminating the CEL. Once in a blue moon the CEL will pop back up (about twice or three times per year). HT or AP will clear it. So will most inexpensive generic scan tools or the more expensive Dash Hawk type products. Or you can get any auto parts store to read and clear it for you.

Back to the downpipe and race pipe mod. You need more flow when the gasses are still super hot coming out of the turbo impeller and wastegate. The stock downpipe is too small for maximum capable flow. It's only about 2.5 inches. A three inch bell mouth shaped downipipe and matching race pipe flow the gasses better and allow them to cool down before getting to the CBE. By the time they reach the CBE, their volume has been reduced (hot gasses expand, cooler gasses contract in volume), and can flow just fine through the roughly 2.5 inch CBE which has excellent resos that do not introduce turbulence or significant back pressure, nor does the single high flow muffler at the very end of the system.

By improving flow coming out of the turbo through the downpipe and race pipe, you'll also see that this improves flow through all the way back to the intake side. The stock ECU will send more fuel fuel through the injectors and the ECU will also see that is is safe to raise boost up to about 2 psi higher than stock. This all combines to make more power. You may find that you need to go to one step colder spark plugs, although at that mod level, it may not be necessary. Colder plugs protect against the ECU having to pull back timing if knock is sensed. In other words, they are protective against knock, but will not necessarily make more power, per se.

Lots to learn. Lots to read. I can't answer all your questions. You'll need to figure this out one mod at a time as you go. The search engine here is not the easiest to use. Best way, IMHO is to use Google and just include mazdas247 as a search term and Google will search this site for your other search terms.

Good luck. Hope this helps.

 

[mikelebz]

By improving flow coming out of the turbo through the downpipe and race pipe, you'll also see that this improves flow through all the way back to the intake side. The stock ECU will send more fuel fuel through the injectors and the ECU will also see that is is safe to raise boost up to about 2 psi higher than stock. This all combines to make more power. You may find that you need to go to one step colder spark plugs, although at that mod level, it may not be necessary. Colder plugs protect against the ECU having to pull back timing if knock is sensed. In other words, they are protective against knock, but will not necessarily make more power, per se.

Thank you again very much. You have given me a lot of great insight. I do, however, have one more question regarding the portion that I have quoted. When you say that the ECU will send more fuel through the injectors. And that the ECU will also see that it is safe to raise boost 2psi. Is this automatic, or will I do this through the HT tune? Thank you again for your info.

-Mike

 

[MSMS3]

No problem. Yes, the stock ECU will increase fuel to match the increased air, so that it maintains its target air to fuel ratio. That increased air and fuel get burned to make more power. And yes, the increased exhaust flow allows the turbo to generate about 2 psi more boost, again on the stock tune. But this does come at the potential risk of boost spikes lower in the rpm band and the possibility of hitting load cut. You'll know what that cut is when it happens. It will almost be like getting thrown into your steering wheel. Very sharp power cut. The stock ECU has a tendency to shut off injectors and slam the throttle body shut quickly when it encounters things it does not like. One of those things is exceeding about 17.5 psi of boost under certain operating conditions, especially in very cold weather. You'll know it when you feel it. Yes. the power gains are automatic.

If you run into load cut or boost spikes above 20, you would want to check your fuel pressure under load, go to one step colder plugs, and ultimately consider either the HT or AP tune.

 

[mikelebz]

I would be doing a HT tune from day 1 of mods regardless. Will this help prevent the load cut? Also, how common is this load cut under my future mod plans? and I am assuming that there is not way to know my boost PSI (or if I am undergoing any boost spikes) without a boost gauge or an AP, right? The HT does not grant me that info, right?

Thanks again. I just want to do all of my homework,
Mike

 

[MSMS3]

Then, please, do your homework. That means do it youself, not try to get short answers from others to complex questions. Sorry for being blunt. I've tried to help and hope I have been helpful. But now is time for you to do your own work.

There is a whole forum section here about HT and many, many threads both in that forum and in others specifically relating to ECU's and tuning. Same about load cut, same about monitoring.

I like the product. No, HT does not monitor beyond reading and clearing check engine light codes. You NEED a boost gauge now, like yesterday. You also need to be able to know what your air-to-fuel ratios will be doing when you make changes. You need to know your fuel pressure. You at least need to be able to get snapshots of these basic values or to measure them real time, even if you don't data log. Maybe you can borrow a Dash Hawk or scan tool from time to time when you make mods and changes? Consider a used Dash Hawk or some type of scan tool.

Seek and ye shall find.

I've been happy to help, but don't want to have to spoon feed you. Getting easy answers from forum members will eventually get you in trouble. You need to understand this engine. Please start reading the threads. If you don't take the time to get a good understanding of what is going on and why when you add/change mods, you'll end up with a blown engine and blame someone for giving you bad advice.

 

[Benior]

I've got the Corksport intake and TBE with catted racepipe, along with the PT Performance PCV fix and HPFP internals. I didn't see very big gains until I used a Cobb AP with an off-the-shelf-tune. I've got the Corksport TMIC on the way, I'll look into getting a custom tune after I install that.

Scattered thoughts/experiences:
-Engine seemed more responsive with the SRI/TIP, though that could be a psychological effect of the prominent whooshing sound.
-I went with a catted racepipe because I didn't want to smell the car when stopped in Chicago traffic and personally don't want a catless daily driver, but to each his own.
-My racepipe was a bit too short and caused the cat-back to rub, Corksport replaced it under warranty at no cost to me.
-I did the exhaust install in stages (CBE, then RP, then DP), the racepipe, even with a cat, was by far the loudest addition. I couldn't tell you how loud the DP/RP/Stock CBE combo is.
-My car put down 248whp stock, slightly more with mods and no reflash (I didn't get a printout and forgot), and 295whp with aforementioned off-the-shelf AP map. Another stock MS3 that was at the same dyno day mine was put down 233whp. Maybe he got a Friday car and I got a Wednesday car.
-I highly recommend the TRZ engine mount. Once it broke in, the vibrations weren't too noticeable. If you don't mind more noticeable vibrations (like a vibrating rear-view mirror) and noise, you can add the trans-mount as well. It still shakes less than my automatic Sentra SE-R did with Energy Suspension motor mount inserts.
-I've not thrown any check engine lights and from what I recall, everything remained in safe levels when I was monitoring with my AP.
-My MS3 is still not as fun as my 115whp 1997 Miata was.

Barring breaking something, I figure I'll be done with power mods after the TMIC and custom tune.

 

[MSMS3]

I've got the Corksport intake and TBE with catted racepipe, along with the PT Performance PCV fix and HPFP internals. I didn't see very big gains until I used a Cobb AP with an off-the-shelf-tune. -My car put down 248whp stock, slightly more with mods and no reflash (I didn't get a printout and forgot), and 295whp with aforementioned off-the-shelf AP map. Another stock MS3 that was at the same dyno day mine was put down 233whp. Maybe he got a Friday car and I got a Wednesday car.

Seriously? No significant gains with the intake and an aftermarket downpipe and racepipe on stock tune? I must respectfully disagree. My car was extremely responsive to the combo of a good intake and opening up the exhaust with a good 3 inch downpipe and racepipe. Gee, my car ran like a scalded dog with those mods on stock tune. Only real problem I was having was boost spikes on stock tune and fixed that with HT.

Let me be clear. Even on stock tune my 60-100 mph times fell by over two seconds and my 40-120 times by almost five seconds. I call that real performance gains. I'm not saying that the tune didn't help. It did. Besides the known benefits from all of the tuning options, like releasing full power in first and second gear, increasing load limits, giving usable power above 5,500 rpm, etc., it did further reduce my times while adding a lot of practical smoothness in power delivery.

Maybe we have completely different MS3's, but my experience is that while tuning can really enhance a car, simple intake and upstream exhaust mods with the stock ECU and stock fuel pump (with proven 1700 psi pressure under load) can and do make serious power gains, IMHO. And I'm still on the stock CBE, too.

I don't have a lot of confidence in absolute numbers on dyno pulls. I do have confidence in real world time, speed and distance measurements. Go to YouTube and enter "MSMS3" without the quotation marks. Pull up the 40-120 mph pull I recorded and posted there. This is with mods below, except was BEFORE the HT tune. Get a stopwatch and time it. Do some comparisions with other cars. 12.5 seconds 40-120 ain't too shabby on stock tune with basic mods. Those simple mods just transformed the car in the higher gears. You do understand that 6.1 seconds 60-100 and 12.5 seconds from 40-120 are the same times as reported in the reviews of the 426 horsepower Camaro SS, don't you?

Now, there are a lot of cars here way quicker than this. But the change from stock was positively transformational on my car.

 

[Benior]

All I'm saying is that I didn't see big gains on the dyno (same dyno as the stock pull, but several months later). I drove the car with the intake, race pipe, and cat-back, and no re-flash, but I never drove it with the downpipe and no re-flash. Perhaps I would've seen big changes in acceleration times, but I didn't do any testing. My opportunities for doing so are rather limited, as I would need to drive a pretty good distance to find a safe, empty stretch of road to do so reliably.

 

[MSMS3]

^ Understood. With simple addition of a good intake and a good downpipe and racepipe the car just rips. It was transformational. But I found that it needed a sensible tune because of the boost spikes that were potentially harmful. Take your car to the track or try using a stopwatch, at least a 60-100 mph WOT pull in 4th gear. That's where you find out if those dyno numbers are getting where you want to go.