Brand of gas and fuel mileage

[Kayger12]

I've heard that one before but always wondered about it because the gas is always being sucked from the bottom of the tank. I guess if the contaminants are ones that float then it would take in more of them but I'd think most of the bad stuff in the tank would be at the bottom all the time.
And do modern gas tanks have that problem as much? On older cars you'd get rust in the tank but on new cars? And how much junk is ending up in the storage tanks at the stations? Is that also improved over years past?
A lot of cars anymore don't even have fuel filters, they just have the strainer on the fuel pickup in the tank.

The problem with running the tank down isn't so much the garbage getting sucked up, but instead the negative effect on the fuel pump.

Fuel pumps use the gasoline that they're submerged in for lubrication and to dissipate heat.

When you run a tank low the fuel pump is not submerged and consequently runs hotter. This can shorten the life of the fuel pump if done regularly.

I rarely go below a quarter tank for this reason.

Never had to replace a fuel pump and I keep my cars (and motorcycles) a long time.

Glad you've been fortunate. My wife that doesn't listen to me and always runs her tank down has been through two since we've been together. That's about $600 worth of I-told-you-so's.

 

[MikeM.]

Fuel pumps use the gasoline that they're submerged in for lubrication and to dissipate heat.

When you run a tank low the fuel pump is not submerged and consequently runs hotter.

Fuel pumps are sealed units. There is no lubrication advantage to having fuel surrounding the pump body. As long as you don't start sucking air the pump will get all the lubrication it will ever get. As to heat dissipation, they do not generate a whole lot of heat for their size. While fuel will conduct more heat than the fuel vapor in a nearly empty tank the pump materials are good up to hundreds of degrees F. and, as long as the pump is not sucking air, the fuel being pumped through the pump will cool the seals more than adequately. If your pump is getting that hot you have more significant issues (safety) than worrying about pump failure and I would not worry about this except perhaps in extremely hot weather. Where I live it would rarely be an issue.

I do agree that running out of fuel entirely (sucking air) is bad for the life of the fuel pump and should be avoided entirely.

 

[Kayger12]

Gotcha. All the same I'll take less heat over more heat.

Not worth the risk for me.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

There will always be those (especially older generation), who have a difficult time swallowing the fact that gasoline is gasoline.

The ABC News article states almost exactly what I have said for years on this, and other forums.
The product at a generic station IS SHELL/EXXON/CHEVRON/BP/VALERO GAS. The difference is additive, and that is it.
Gas varies accross the country, yes. But if you're filling up in the same county/region, it is all the same stuff.

HOWEVER...
Quality issues arise AFTER the distribution (99% of the time) level, and happen most often during transportation and storage at retail filling stations. I have heard some real horror stories from drivers and carriers about mom and pop stations...
Basically, buy branded for THIS reason, not because it is any better or different than unbranded (it isn't when it leaves my facility)...
IMO, you are safer buying unbranded from grocery stores and WalMart, because they have corporate QC protocols which are far more scrutinized than (forgive my policitcal incorrectness) Abu at the local Kwik Trac station, who may very well be dealing under the table for his gas, dropping regular into his super tanks, contaminating, and an array of other nightmarish scenarios.
And for the record, Shell additizes their fuels (esp. premium) far more than anybody else. I won't throw around actual recipes/injection rates, but it is significantly more than unbranded (and other brands), between all grades.

 

[MikeM.]

The product at a generic station IS SHELL/EXXON/CHEVRON/BP/VALERO GAS. The difference is additive, and that is it.
Gas varies accross the country, yes. But if you're filling up in the same county/region, it is all the same stuff.

While I agree that gasoline is cross-branded regularly and it is impossible to assure better quality simply by choosing a certain brand, I strongly disagree that gasoline is gasoline. Just as with beer, it varies from batch to batch even while meeting industry standards and this variation is often enough to be noticeable in some vehicles. That is not to say that inexpensive gasoline should be avoided because it may very well be from a better batch than the more expensive stuff across the street.

But not all gasoline is the same (regardless of different additives). I live near four major refineries and their fuel quality varies from batch to batch for many different reasons. Considerations include differing outside temperatures, wind chill, differing specifications of the raw crude oil and (between refineries) equipment differences. Refineries periodically update their facilities but they do not all do so the same year. While they may all meet minimum standards for the grade being produced, they are not identical products (anymore than the most modern brewery could turn out identical beer year after year).

 

[sxa]

Personally I have seen no difference in fuel economy from when I fill up at a Shell Or Chevron from when I go to generic places like the HEB or a chain we have here called "Major Brand Gas". I am sure there might be some advantages to the fact that some fuel as different additives but I haven't ran into problems. I typically fill up at the Valero near my house or the Valero near the office, but when traveling I just stop at where the cheapest gas is.

 

[CXVille]

While I agree that gasoline is cross-branded regularly and it is impossible to assure better quality simply by choosing a certain brand, I strongly disagree that gasoline is gasoline. Just as with beer, it varies from batch to batch even while meeting industry standards and this variation is often enough to be noticeable in some vehicles. That is not to say that inexpensive gasoline should be avoided because it may very well be from a better batch than the more expensive stuff across the street.

But not all gasoline is the same (regardless of different additives). I live near four major refineries and their fuel quality varies from batch to batch for many different reasons. Considerations include differing outside temperatures, wind chill, differing specifications of the raw crude oil and (between refineries) equipment differences. Refineries periodically update their facilities but they do not all do so the same year. While they may all meet minimum standards for the grade being produced, they are not identical products (anymore than the most modern brewery could turn out identical beer year after year).

While this is true, much of the fuel in the US is shipped via pipeline to local tanks, which is where they add many of the additives to make it one brand versus another. So, you could have four or more brands in a given area using the same gas with different additives. Or, you could have one with gas that is not sold to by other vendors. Good luck on figuring that out. I stick to name brands and that seems to work - I have only had an issue I could trace to gas once in the past 30+ years - from a local, unbranded station.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

I take in multi-million gallon batches weekly through pipeline. Different batch to batch yes, but it is only subtleties. So subtle that it takes expensive lab analysis equipment to analize these characteristics. Your car's ECU/engine won't know the difference.
There is no differenciating of these inconsequential "differences" on my part. It just mixes in several 50 ft. tall storage tanks. There's fairly broad QA standards fuels must meet, which differ per wholesaler, but based obviously on even broader government mandate.

CXVille is correct. The gas that leaves nearly all distribution facilities goes into countless mom n' pop stations, Exxon stations, Shell, Chevron, etc. and into common chain stations, like grocers as well, because they do third party, exchange and proprietary, branded business.

I sell this stuff to retail filling stations, in the tens of thousands of gallons, and deal with the transport carriers that haul them there - buy branded, and buy from well maintaned, high throughput filling stations.

 

[CX-SV]

Thanks IHeartGroceries for the information from an insider. The usual internet hearsay on subject of gasoline tends to get old and out of date.

 

[MikeM.]

I take in multi-million gallon batches weekly through pipeline. Different batch to batch yes, but it is only subtleties.

The city I live in has two major refineries inside the city limits. The refineries both claim to have safe reliable equipment and modern procedures but much of the equipment is over 50 years old and cobbled together over years of repairs and upgrades. On April 2, 2010 5 local men and 2 local women lost their lives when the refining process went wrong. The explosion was so loud I thought my windows had blown out. I grabbed my camera and went outside. This is what it looked like (yes, the explosion woke me up and I took the photo around 1AM):

Unfortunately, I knew one of the victims and many local family members of other victims.

These refineries sell most of their product in Washington and Oregon. What's unusual about this refinery (compared with most refineries in Texas) is that the raw crude oil it processes comes from many different sources including the North Slope of Alaska and Alberta Tar sands. North slope crude varies widely in quality, some of it is very difficult to refine and the crude mined from the Alberta tar sands is even worse. Most Texas refineries refine sweet, light crude, a very different product.

So, how do these fatal accidents happen in a modern refinery? The answer is, it's not very modern and owners don't like to shut them down or spend a lot of money on upgrades. The equipment is not modern at all, it's very old and crude (excuse the pun).
Tesoro’s long list of willful violations included: "Failing to inspect equipment consistent with recognized engineering practices and industry standards; failing to test for cracks and other defects in equipment prone to damage from thermal fatigue, chemical exposure; failing to implement its own corrosion awareness and management program". The company also failed to repair equipment, had no start-up protocols for the heat exchangers, describing the potential hazards, and neglected to ensure workers were properly trained for the task.

These were not accidents, they were WILLFULL violations. And the fact is, most of the quality testing is not done by government regulators - the regulators primary source of information about the quality of the fuels leaving the refinery is straight from the labs of the refineries themselves. Yes, the very people who have to answer to the shareholders when profits are not as good as expected. Nope, they NEVER fudge the numbers - I know because I go to church with them on Sunday, LOL! You would have to be quite gullible to believe the industry speak about how safe and modern the equipment and processes are and how good their quality control is. That's just BS put out by greedy people who don't want to spend $750 million to bring the plant up to modern safety and quality standards. Not only does quality suffer - people lose their lives, children lose parents because of it.

And, yes, different batches of fuels ARE blended together when one or more batches are substandard in one way or another. But this doesn't make the final product consistent because there is only so much blending they can do and the crude oil arrives on huge tankers and there is only so much storage available at the refinery (for both crude oil and refined product).

I believe in Texas you may have a more consistent final product because, as far as I know, most of the low grade, heavy crude oil is processed and sold up north. The refining process is much simpler and it is easier to get a more consistent product when you are not dealing with huge variation in the raw product and the associated problems with meeting air quality emissions standards while refining this heavy crude. Of course, they really don't meet the air quality standards all the time but the EPA gets it's compliance data from the refineries themselves! The regulators trust the refineries so much that they announce IN ADVANCE when they will be showing up to check for compliance.

So don't for a minute try to snow us with feel good oil industry speak about how consistent the final product is across the country. Not only does it vary within the allowed specification but some of it doesn't even meet the minimum specifications even after it's blended. But the labs have complicated formulas they can use to "show" that it does. And even fuel that meets the minimum octane requirement can vary in how likely it is to cause detonation under different conditions. All fuel that meets the legal specification of 87 octane does not behave the same way in your engine because there are different methods a refinery can use to meet the minimum octane spec. and not all the methods create fuels that behave the same in your engine.

And to top that off, the alcohol content of fuel labeled "regular unleaded" in the U.S. can vary from 0% to 10% and the retailer's are not required to tell you what it is because they often don't know themselves once fuels of varying alcohol content are dumped into their underground service station tanks. That alone shows that fuels can vary from fill-up to fill-up, even at the same station from week to week.

About the only thing we agree upon is that by sticking with one brand or another you are not guaranteed to be getting better fuel than with any other brand. Personally, I fill up at the cheapest station in my area because they do a lot of volume and have newer tanks and pumps.

BTW, the refinery in the photo above is owned by Tesoro, a Texas company.

 

[Gio26NJ]

The city I live in has two major refineries inside the city limits. The refineries both claim to have safe reliable equipment and modern procedures but much of the equipment is over 50 years old and cobbled together over years of repairs and upgrades. On April 2, 2010 5 local men and 2 local women lost their lives when the refining process went wrong. The explosion was so loud I thought my windows had blown out. I grabbed my camera and went outside. This is what it looked like (yes, the explosion woke me up and I took the photo around 1AM):

Unfortunately, I knew one of the victims and many local family members of other victims.

These refineries sell most of their product in Washington and Oregon. What's unusual about this refinery (compared with most refineries in Texas) is that the raw crude oil it processes comes from many different sources including the North Slope of Alaska and Alberta Tar sands. North slope crude varies widely in quality, some of it is very difficult to refine and the crude mined from the Alberta tar sands is even worse. Most Texas refineries refine sweet, light crude, a very different product.

So, how do these fatal accidents happen in a modern refinery? The answer is, it's not very modern and owners don't like to shut them down or spend a lot of money on upgrades. The equipment is not modern at all, it's very old and crude (excuse the pun).
Tesoro’s long list of willful violations included: "Failing to inspect equipment consistent with recognized engineering practices and industry standards; failing to test for cracks and other defects in equipment prone to damage from thermal fatigue, chemical exposure; failing to implement its own corrosion awareness and management program". The company also failed to repair equipment, had no start-up protocols for the heat exchangers, describing the potential hazards, and neglected to ensure workers were properly trained for the task.

These were not accidents, they were WILLFULL violations. And the fact is, most of the quality testing is not done by government regulators - the regulators primary source of information about the quality of the fuels leaving the refinery is straight from the labs of the refineries themselves. Yes, the very people who have to answer to the shareholders when profits are not as good as expected. Nope, they NEVER fudge the numbers - I know because I go to church with them on Sunday, LOL! You would have to be quite gullible to believe the industry speak about how safe and modern the equipment and processes are and how good their quality control is. That's just BS put out by greedy people who don't want to spend $750 million to bring the plant up to modern safety and quality standards. Not only does quality suffer - people lose their lives, children lose parents because of it.

And, yes, different batches of fuels ARE blended together when one or more batches are substandard in one way or another. But this doesn't make the final product consistent because there is only so much blending they can do and the crude oil arrives on huge tankers and there is only so much storage available at the refinery (for both crude oil and refined product).

I believe in Texas you may have a more consistent final product because, as far as I know, most of the low grade, heavy crude oil is processed and sold up north. The refining process is much simpler and it is easier to get a more consistent product when you are not dealing with huge variation in the raw product and the associated problems with meeting air quality emissions standards while refining this heavy crude. Of course, they really don't meet the air quality standards all the time but the EPA gets it's compliance data from the refineries themselves! The regulators trust the refineries so much that they announce IN ADVANCE when they will be showing up to check for compliance.

So don't for a minute try to snow us with feel good oil industry speak about how consistent the final product is across the country. Not only does it vary within the allowed specification but some of it doesn't even meet the minimum specifications even after it's blended. But the labs have complicated formulas they can use to "show" that it does. And even fuel that meets the minimum octane requirement can vary in how likely it is to cause detonation under different conditions. All fuel that meets the legal specification of 87 octane does not behave the same way in your engine because there are different methods a refinery can use to meet the minimum octane spec. and not all the methods create fuels that behave the same in your engine.

And to top that off, the alcohol content of fuel labeled "regular unleaded" in the U.S. can vary from 0% to 10% and the retailer's are not required to tell you what it is because they often don't know themselves once fuels of varying alcohol content are dumped into their underground service station tanks. That alone shows that fuels can vary from fill-up to fill-up, even at the same station from week to week.

About the only thing we agree upon is that by sticking with one brand or another you are not guaranteed to be getting better fuel than with any other brand. Personally, I fill up at the cheapest station in my area because they do a lot of volume and have newer tanks and pumps.

BTW, the refinery in the photo above is owned by Tesoro, a Texas company.

Wow, this is some good pieces of information. Never knew how detailed the behind the scenes stuff could be. Interesting reads from both of you.

 

[MikeM.]

Since we have a fuel quality thread going on I thought this could add some useful data points.

The State of Washington does random sampling of fuel quality at three different levels - producers, distributors and retailers. The most recent data I could find on-line was published in 2009 (samples taken in 2008). The testing includes:

Octane
Flash Point
Total Glycerin
Free Glycerin
Water & Sediment
Water Suspended
Microbial Growth
Total Sulfur
Acid Number
Phosphorus
Octane Labeling
Over 10% Ethanol

Procedure:

Samples of gasoline, diesel, and biofuels are collected across the state. Inspectors use portable fuel analyzers and portable ethanol test kits for field tests. Samples failing field tests are sent to one of several in-state laboratories for detailed analysis. The laboratory analysis determines product compliance with motor fuel specifications of the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) and confirms the fuel is meeting state and federal labeling requirements. WSDA uses the nationally approved ASTM tolerance limits and National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) standards to determine if a sample has passed or failed.

765 samples were taken at facilities and retailers across the state with 30 percent of the samples found to have one or more quality standards out of tolerance. The most common problem found with the samples of gasoline was ethanol over 10 percent. You can bet that's going to affect the performance of your CX-5!

Field Testing of Compliance with Octane Standards

A total of 252 gasoline samples were analyzed in the field for percent of octane. Compliance across all grades of fuel tested was 96 percent, with compliance of 90 percent for regular, 99 percent for midgrade and 95 percent for premium (Figure 3). This level of compliance is consistent with compliance levels reported over the last ten years.

Laboratory Testing of Fuel Quality

A total of 544 samples were sent to laboratories for a full analysis. This included 243 gasoline/ethanol samples and 301 diesel/biodiesel samples (Figure 4).
Of the 243 gasoline/ethanol samples analyzed, 40 percent were out of compliance with quality and labeling standards. The most common reason for being out of compliance was exceeding the legal maximum of 10 percent ethanol, with 20 percent of all gas samples exceeding the maximum. Any sample exceeding 10 percent ethanol was considered out of compliance, with the majority of these samples between 1 and 3 percent over tolerance. Blends of ethanol slightly over 10 percent may not be an immediate concern, but ethanol blends in excess of 10 percent can lead to decreased fuel economy and potential engine problems, in addition to violating EPA emission standards. Five percent of the samples did not meet labeled octane levels, mostly due to mislabeling. Four percent of the samples showed water and/or sediment.

You can see the whole report here:

http://agr.wa.gov/fp/pubs/docs/257-2008MotorFuelQualityAnnualReportFINAL.pdf

Not only does fuel quality vary within the specifications, but a disappointing amount of it does not even meet the minimum standards! And this is true of the most basic specifications such as octane rating and alcohol percentage. And the report mentioned that these results were consistent with the testing results over the previous 10 years. So, don't let anyone in the petroleum industry try to tell you that all fuel is basically the same!

 

[Caspan]

Thanks for all the stories and info, I guess also I am in Canada and I hope or am naive that our standards are a bit tighter when it comes to this kind of stuff. Maybe I am in left field and Canada has given me the warm fuzzy feeling that they are making sure the products I am buying fall within a certain standard and are tested in some form or another to make sure they continue to meet that standard.

here is another story about Ethanol and how more and more is being used because of emissions with Ethanol being cleaner but also it cuts the fuel millage.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ng-with-ethanol-content-rules/article4197860/


So maybe they are just slowly going to go from 5% to 10% then keep creeping up till we get to 100% and by that point we don't notice the millage differences because it happened gradually.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

Mike, good luck finding any consistency at all between retail filling stations. It is a market business. If prices at my facility are high on Tuesday, guess what, they carry from the terminal 5 miles away because it is a fraction of a cent less. And where does that fuel go? Loaded on the same accounts, hauled to the same filling stations that they would have been delivered to if it had been loaded at my terminal. And where did it originate? s***, we might have sold it to them through an exchange.
Furthermore, out of all of those data points, ethanol is where the chief concern lies, and I'll give you that. That issue lies at the distribution level, because there's countless rag tag facilities disposing fuels who are poorly managed, poorly operated, have s*** equipment, etc. Not all distribution is cooperate, branded, "big oil" owned facilities. There's plenty that are privately owned that have loose QC standards, because outside of branded business (if they have it), they don't have a public reputation to keep.
What is more closely managed is the branded side of exchange distribution. If rag tag terminal is dispensing fuels for Chevron, the proprietary additive, tank(s) and pumping equipment belongs to Chevron. They inspect it periodically, monitor the injection rates of their additive into the fuel, and pay for any maintenance needed on the additive systems.
Your argument would be 100% valid if refinery "A" shipped to terminal "A" and terminal "A" distributed to retail station "A". But it isn't that simple. The market dictates a totally different situation. Instead, refinery "A" ships to terminal "A, B, C, D" and terminals "A, B, C, D" distributes to retail filling stations "A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P..." (you get the point).
It is nearly impossible to manage quality control once the fuel is being stored at the retail level, at least in regards to just yanking a sample from a filling station. It’s like, who knows where it originated? Who knows who is at fault? The number one cause of quality problems originates from poor handling by carriers. That’s why distribution QCA is so stringent with the big name branded facilities. I won’t go into detail about our standards, but we don’t allow over blended (or under) E10 leave the facility. We have safeguard measures built into the automation system which makes it virtually impossible to happen. There is rampant dishonesty on the part of carriers and consignees. Believe me, we don’t let BS fuel leave here, and if we are accused of such, we protect ourselves.
You can choose a filling station and fill up there for 20 years and never have an issue, but all it’d take is a single tank of contaminated or grossly off-spec fuel to change your opinion on the brand and station forever. That reputation is all they’ve got. They don’t make the mistake of just selling junk.

**EDIT**

And by the way, never once did I say fuel quality is comparable or static across the country. In fact, if you go back and read, I specifically stated it is all refined to adhere to differing mandates, per federal, state, county or even municipality. What I said was, within these regions it is not differentiated.
Just as an example of the final product leaving a refinery having little to do with the crude coming in, Motiva Enterprises' new Port Arthur refinery expansion allows them to take in essentially any quality of crude. The expansion also increased their refining capacity to largest in the United States.

Texas refineries don't just accept light sweets. We are much closer to the sour junk from South America than you are. Generally, there are refineries that are equipped and "known" to process sweets, and adversely, others equipped to better handle the sour, less desirable crudes. That is what makes the P.A. expansion exciting from consumers and for Motiva associates.

Any incidents I will take with a grain of salt. It is very easy to roll blame for essentially anything onto an oil company. But, at the same time, I have worked at some seriously ragged privately owned refineries, and it wouldn't come as a surprise for maintenance and upgrade lapses. It isn't easy just to shut down a refinery. It doesn't have to do with just an unwillingness to spend money. Believe me, the Fed and government, environmentalists, and civil organizations make it very difficult to do much of anything.

Mike, we aren’t even in much of a disagreement here. I am simply saying one is doing themselves (and their car’s engine) a disservice by buying from unbranded stations. My opinion is that if you fill up at branded stations with high throughput, your car will remain mechanically healthy, and you will likely never have an incident. Arguing minute differences in fuels from region to region, filling station to filling station is all water under the bridge.

 

[CX-5um]

I'm at 6,500 miles. Use 87 octane from QT (high traffic locations only). 31.5mpg mostly city driving 20 miles round trip ( total 1 hour 45min daily commute time). MPG may dip a bit in summer when AC is on full time.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

Thanks for all the stories and info, I guess also I am in Canada and I hope or am naive that our standards are a bit tighter when it comes to this kind of stuff. Maybe I am in left field and Canada has given me the warm fuzzy feeling that they are making sure the products I am buying fall within a certain standard and are tested in some form or another to make sure they continue to meet that standard.

here is another story about Ethanol and how more and more is being used because of emissions with Ethanol being cleaner but also it cuts the fuel millage.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ng-with-ethanol-content-rules/article4197860/


So maybe they are just slowly going to go from 5% to 10% then keep creeping up till we get to 100% and by that point we don't notice the millage differences because it happened gradually.

DBL POST

I don't know anything about the business specifics up there, but I believe it is pretty well accepted that your fuel is better than ours, or at least refined to a higher standard. Several of the very accredited tuners on MSF have confirmed this, e-tuning cars north of the border.

I am pretty sure it is a similar situation in Canada as it is in the states - There are several thresholds for fuel to pass through in regards to quality assurance.
For example, the refinery has its standards in place; they analyze their product before shipping it out. It is very typical for these days for pipeline companies to contract or service transportation of refined product shipped out of the refinery. They have their set of standards to adhere to, perform their own analysis, etc. They just as stringent, because they don't want to deal with any losses associated with contaminated fuels, and they don't want that liability. Then, once it is shipped to a distribution terminal, it undergoes more analysis before it even enters the holding tank, in order to make verify what is being dispensed to carriers meets QCA. So, there are several layers of assurance.
The one area where it seems to lapse is after it leaves the terminal, (or as it is being loaded). It isn't uncommon for a driver to either knowingly or mistakenly load one product onto of another, then proceed to drop it a filling station. There isn't any more analysis completed after it leaves a terminal. So, what left the risers at the terminal load rack may not be what ends up getting dropped, because it was mixed or loaded on top of something else. That would likely be an inadvertent example...

That is why I say carrier transportation is the weakest link, and yet another reason I say buy branded. Often times, big name branded retail stations will have major contracts drawn up, so that this specific carrier is the only business who will haul fuels for the retail station. Often times, but not always, it is the bigger, better managed carrier companies who get these contracts, and who want to preserve a business relationship (because these contracts are lucrative), so they make sure their drivers do their job correctly. These load to load, one jobbers and owner operators are much more suspect to problems that may show up in your fuel quality.

 

[MikeM.]

Mike, good luck finding any consistency at all between retail filling stations. It is a market business. If prices at my facility are high on Tuesday, guess what, they carry from the terminal 5 miles away because it is a fraction of a cent less. And where does that fuel go? Loaded on the same accounts, hauled to the same filling stations that they would have been delivered to if it had been loaded at my terminal. And where did it originate? s***, we might have sold it to them through an exchange.
Furthermore, out of all of those data points, ethanol is where the chief concern lies, and I'll give you that. That issue lies at the distribution level, because there's countless rag tag facilities disposing fuels who are poorly managed, poorly operated, have s*** equipment, etc. Not all distribution is cooperate, branded, "big oil" owned facilities.

Give me a break - did you even read the report from the Washington State Department of Agriculture Weights and Measurements fuel quality testing report? These people actually sampled the fuel at the production facilities (refineries) which are all owned by large private corporations. The alcohol is added to the gasoline at the refinery and, at the refinery level in Washington in 2008, over 27 percent of the fuel samples did not meet the minimum quality standards. The most common violation of the gasoline samples was gasoline with more than 10% alcohol - the maximum allowed by federal law. This is not a distributor problem, it is a refinery problem (although I acknowledge that other problems can arise at the distribution and retail levels). But with 27% of the fuel leaving Washington refineries not even meeting the minimum quality standards, mostly because it had too much alcohol, I don't think you can put big oil on a pedestal and claim they hold high standards and have a reputation to protect. And I know many relatives of dead refinery workers who would take issue with your claim that they operate in an upstanding fashion.

Your argument would be 100% valid if refinery "A" shipped to terminal "A" and terminal "A" distributed to retail station "A".

Errr... what argument are you referring to?

I won’t go into detail about our standards, but we don’t allow over blended (or under) E10 leave the facility. We have safeguard measures built into the automation system which makes it virtually impossible to happen.

If that is true then you run a better facility than the refineries in Washington that had 22 samples taken and that were sent to the lab for analysis. My point is that fuel does vary in quality significantly, even at the refinery level. Not only does it vary within the allowed specifications, but a shocking amount of it doesn't even meet the minimum standards as set by the federal government. The lab results prove it. Yes, around here the alcohol is generally added by the refineries which are not mom and pop operations, they are huge corporations (the same ones you claim "have a reputation to protect"). Please don't put them on a pedestal, they have enough lobbyists and spend millions every year on propaganda to convince us of their good intentions. Anyone with half a brain knows they do this for one reason - to maximize profits. The lab tests show they care more about profits than how well your car runs or whether their products are in compliance with federal fuel quality standards. Really, how do you think the fuel gets more than 10% alcohol in it? It doesn't just materialize out of thin air - they put it in there because alcohol is cheaper than gasoline.

And by the way, never once did I say fuel quality is comparable or static across the country. In fact, if you go back and read, I specifically stated it is all refined to adhere to differing mandates, per federal, state, county or even municipality. What I said was, within these regions it is not differentiated.

Again, the lab testing in the only State I checked showed this is not the case. The fuel is different within the same region, 27% of it did not meet federal minimum standards. Did you even read the report?

Texas refineries don't just accept light sweets. We are much closer to the sour junk from South America than you are. Generally, there are refineries that are equipped and "known" to process sweets, and adversely, others equipped to better handle the sour, less desirable crudes.

I never claimed that Texas refineries ONLY handle light sweet crude. But, it's undeniable that the average crude refined in Texas is much lighter and sweeter than that of the northern refineries.

Any incidents I will take with a grain of salt. It is very easy to roll blame for essentially anything onto an oil company.

Yes, it's easy to blame a big oil company for the deaths of many loyal and hard working refinery workers, especially when a very extensive investigation concluded that the deaths were the direct result of WILLFUL violations.

But, at the same time, I have worked at some seriously ragged privately owned refineries, and it wouldn't come as a surprise for maintenance and upgrade lapses. It isn't easy just to shut down a refinery. It doesn't have to do with just an unwillingness to spend money. Believe me, the Fed and government, environmentalists, and civil organizations make it very difficult to do much of anything.

Sure, blame it on the government, environmentalists and civil organizations. That would be funny if we weren't talking about real people who left their families fatherless and motherless. The environmentalists actually WANT the refineries to upgrade their derelict equipment but that costs money (less profits). And if the government is to blame, it is for NOT ENOUGH oversight, not for having too many regulations. The government is a popular scapegoat that shills for big oil like to blame but nothing could be further from the truth.

Mike, we aren’t even in much of a disagreement here.

I must be delusional then.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

There is no point in contuining this discussion from here.
My suggestion to folks was, and still is, buy branded gasoline, from high throughput filling stations, and that appears to be what you do, Mike.

 

[CX-SV]

Thanks IHG, some useful gasoline-related advice for CX-5 owners, without hyperbole.

 

[paris1]

Bumping this thread because I recently noticed a Top Tier sign on a Costco gas pump as I was filling my car. This may be old news to some (and it's not something that's terribly important to me), but I know many here care about this sort of thing and I've seen Costco gas bashed on this and other forums as being somehow inferior. I've used it almost exclusively for about ten years and never had a problem, but for those that are reassured by labels, Costco gas is not only cheap, it's got the right sticky! (At least in Calif.)