I can spin the front tires on my AWD CX-9 .... is this normal for this AWD system?

Lets talk AWD...

My 2017 CX-9 AWD Signature has been in a few situations where the road has been slippery and i am not sure if it behaved like AWD car.

First one was in March when i took it to the mountains and on a semi-steep driveway covered with snow/slush/ice.... on stock Falken A/S tires, the CX-9 did very very poorly. I could not go more than 5 ft up the hill. It felt like only the front wheels were spinning with no traction and i was getting no help from the rear wheels at all. I blamed it on the poor A/S Falken tires. Btw... my old Lexus GX470 4WD, on the same exact spot had zero issues with traction.

2 weeks ago.... i took my family camping. The camp site had a loading zone that was basically a steeper dirt road driveway. It was covered in dry gravel and dirt. Nothing too crazy. I unloaded the CX-9 and when i tried to drive up the steep dirt road driveway, i noticed that i was easily spinning the front tires again if i gave it any decent push. It regained traction and i got out of the steep section fine.... but it was clear that the car was acting like a FWD car for the first 1-2+ seconds. I am suspecting that the Rear wheels were engaged at some point but why the delay?? Why not instant? Isn't the Mazda AWD system super smart, with multiple sensors' inputs being collected every second, etc, etc? Mazda claims instant responsiveness and safety in slippery situations. Really?? It felt to me like it takes seconds before the rear tires engage... if they even do it.

Also, on a couple of occasions... coming out of a gas station or sharp right turn... if i floor the car hard, i can easily chirp the front tires... just like i can do on any front wheel drive car.
The FWD Mazda CX-5 i was given as a loaner... had similar tire chirping/spinning when i floored it - but i was FWD, not AWD.


Is this normal behavior for the CX-9 AWD system? Should i go get it checked? Btw... i have no warning lights or any other weird behavior. Car has only 15k miles.
It is a bit disappointing that such a "Smart awd system" can allow for so much wheel spin on snow, dirt and even on dry pavement under full power.


I have had a good number of AWD cars in my life... mostly Audis, Lexus and a Subaru... and wheel spin was not so easily achievable with any of them. The only time i could spin ALL four tires was in my Audi S4 AWD, but it was pushing close to 450hp on the wheels, which is a good problem to have.


Ideas? Other observations?

Normal - yes. Mazda's AWD system is like many others on the market where it is primarily FWD until the front wheels start to lose traction and then more power is routed to the back wheels. I believe I've read that the power split is by default ~98% front / ~2% rear and then redistributed as needed.

Mazda touts their system as being superior to other primarily-FWD systems though in that it uses an array of sensors in an effort to predictively/proactively move power to the various wheels so that the delay isn't as noticeable. There are certain situations though where these sensors may not predict loss/lack of traction which will still result in some wheel/tire spin before the power is redistributed for better traction.

My car history includes Subaru WRX and a couple xDrive BMWs before I got my CX-9, so I understand where you're coming from in that those vehicles are much harder to spin the wheels. Their AWD systems though are "full time" whereas Mazda's may be more accurately described as, to use Honda terminology, "real time" AWD.

https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/newsroom/mazda-i-activ-awd/

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/02/snow-testing-mazda-s-i-activ-all-wheel-drive.html

Seems that it is normal with the Mazda system. Norsairius is right in that most of the power is sent to the front wheels first, and then only re-distributed once the system detects slip. I think this section of the above-linked article kind of says it all:

"In normal operation, vehicles route approximately 98 percent of their power to the front wheels, but torque transfer can reach as much as 50:50 front-to-rear if the vehicle determines more power is needed at the rear wheels. Where many systems are touted as sending power from “the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip”—a reactionary system—Mazda’s i-ACTIV AWD is predictive, reading road, engine, transmission, weather, windshield wiper use, internal and external temperature, yaw sensors, steering and other conditions more than 200 times per second to determine torque transfer. In all, i-ACTIV AWD uses 27 different sensors that feed to a central control module to determine how wheels need to be driven before the ever reach a patch of ice or deep puddle."

So basically if your system isn't gripping enough, turn on the windshield wipers and saw the steering wheel side to side! (whistle)

Honestly, it bugs me when I get wheel slip too, especially torque steer, which I think should be pretty much non-existent on an AWD car. Maybe I've been spoiled by having true 4wd cars/trucks in the past. There was never any waiting when 4wd was engaged, there was no slip (unless I was making it slip). It's the price we pay for fuel economy I guess.

Srad600 said:

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"In normal operation, vehicles route approximately 98 percent of their power to the front wheels, but torque transfer can reach as much as 50:50 front-to-rear if the vehicle determines more power is needed at the rear wheels. Where many systems are touted as sending power from “the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip”—a reactionary system—Mazda’s i-ACTIV AWD is predictive, reading road, engine, transmission, weather, windshield wiper use, internal and external temperature, yaw sensors, steering and other conditions more than 200 times per second to determine torque transfer. In all, i-ACTIV AWD uses 27 different sensors that feed to a central control module to determine how wheels need to be driven before the ever reach a patch of ice or deep puddle."
.

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The above statement from Mazda is what bothers me. They make it sound like Mazda uses this very unique and highly predictive, smart system, that is PRO-active and prevents any wheels spin, because "27 different sensors" are taking data "200 times per second". Really??
If this was the case.... my CX-9 would not be spinning its front wheels on gravel for few seconds before it starts climbing up the hill. The rear wheels should engage immediately if the system is so smart, no?
It also would not fully fail to send power to the rear wheels when all 4 wheels are on the snow.
I have seen a few AWD cars with bad tires spin ALL 4 wheels on the snow/ice when going uphill. That is understandable and fully can be blamed on the tires. However, when my new CX-9 with 80% new A/S tires is spinning only the front tires forever and i don't see the rear tires spinning in the snow.... i start to wonder... where is the AWD functionality in this?? Where are all these 27 sensors? Why no power sent to the rear? Why are the rear wheels not spinning at all in the snow? Are all these 27 sensors blind to what's going on with the front wheels? Something is way off here.

danmm7 said:

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The above statement from Mazda is what bothers me. They make it sound like Mazda uses this very unique and highly predictive, smart system, that is PRO-active and prevents any wheels spin, because "27 different sensors" are taking data "200 times per second". Really??
If this was the case.... my CX-9 would not be spinning its front wheels on gravel for few seconds before it starts climbing up the hill. The rear wheels should engage immediately if the system is so smart, no?
It also would not fully fail to send power to the rear wheels when all 4 wheels are on the snow.
I have seen a few AWD cars with bad tires spin ALL 4 wheels on the snow/ice when going uphill. That is understandable and fully can be blamed on the tires. However, when my new CX-9 with 80% new A/S tires is spinning only the front tires forever and i don't see the rear tires spinning in the snow.... i start to wonder... where is the AWD functionality in this?? Where are all these 27 sensors? Why no power sent to the rear? Why are the rear wheels not spinning at all in the snow? Are all these 27 sensors blind to what's going on with the front wheels? Something is way off here.

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I agree, they do make it sound like the system is all conquering...but IMHO there's alot of marketing hype in that statement. I'm sure the fundamentals are true, but the reality of it is that the system will take some time to "catch up" to what the sensors are seeing and adjust.

https://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123861788-CQ-CX-9-diagonal-and-offroad-test-Fail!

(uhm)

Sadly, it looks like this amazing AWD system is only available on paper and in Mazda's marketing team imagination. Not cool. (mad)(screwy)

I can't wait to do more testing this winter. I got a brand new set of Nokian Hakka tires. I have the perfect course to see how much better the CX-9 does on snow tires vs A/S Falkens.

It seems to do what I'd put it through. I think they just didn't attack the diagonal at the right angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfCNpmAjF4I

danmm7 said:

Sadly, it looks like this amazing AWD system is only available on paper and in Mazda's marketing team imagination. Not cool. (mad)(screwy)

I can't wait to do more testing this winter. I got a brand new set of Nokian Hakka tires. I have the perfect course to see how much better the CX-9 does on snow tires vs A/S Falkens.

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There is a whole genre of videos out there discussing the shortcomings of the various manufacturers AWD systems. In short, almost none of the current systems used on crossovers are "full time" mechanical systems with real limited slip or lockable mechanical differentials. Instead, the systems use various combinations of differentials, clutch packs, hydraulic couplers, the brakes, and computers all working in concert to behave like AWD when there is a shortage of traction and more like FWD at all other times. Some of these systems are more successful at this than others. That's why you get the momentary wheelspin, it takes a short period of time for the system to start sending torque to the wheels that are normally not powered.

I would suspect you will find the snow tires will make a huge difference. In my experience (when I lived in the great white north), I'd rather have FWD with snow tires than AWD with all seasons.

danmm7 said:

Sadly, it looks like this amazing AWD system is only available on paper and in Mazda's marketing team imagination. Not cool. (mad)(screwy)

I can't wait to do more testing this winter. I got a brand new set of Nokian Hakka tires. I have the perfect course to see how much better the CX-9 does on snow tires vs A/S Falkens.

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Mazda's AWD is basically what Honda, Toyota and Nissan use. Basically FWD until the need arises. From your reports, it did what it was supposed to do. I think you are just expecting too much.

Also, I don't understand why you are upset that Mazda's advertisement sounded too good to be true.

dougal said:

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Also, I don't understand why you are upset that Mazda's advertisement sounded too good to be true.

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So i should not be upset that Mazda lied and exaggerated about one of their key features?

They went through all the trouble to create fancy graphs and videos to tell us all that their AWD system is better, smarter, quicker than the rest of the competitors. They emphasized that their system is PROACTIVE and sends power to rear wheels BEFORE there is any traction loss on the front and this is simply NOT true. As you said it yourself - Mazda AWD is no better than Nissan, Toyota, Honda.
I can tell you that Toyota at least takes it a step further and offers you a "Diff lock" button, so you can force power to be sent to front and rear wheels. This to me is an advantage over Mazda....where you have ZERO control over where the power goes.

Like i said, in the snow.... my CX-9 was helplessly spinning ONLY the front wheels. The rear did not even move - as if i had a FWD car. A newer Audi Q5, on A/S Pirelli tires drove by me with zero issues. Pretty sad.
This is why i am upset and i started to wonder if there is something mechanically wrong with my AWD system. From the response in this thread, it sounds like there is nothing wrong with my car's AWD. It's just designed this way and i should ignore/forget everything about Mazda's claims in their AWD advertising.

Btw, If you're happy/OK when vendors misrepresent their products just to take your money, i am not, sorry.

Just to be clear - I never expected an offroad monster when i bought the CX-9. I would never expect the Mazda to keep up with a Land Cruiser. What I expected is a decent, smart AWD system that can get me out of gravel/dirt roads and snow...without crazy wheel spin, chains, and drama. So far... i have been fully stuck in the snow once going uphill (blame it on Falken A/S tires) and i had one not too impressive trip on dirt/gravel roads where i managed to get in and out of things fine, but so did other cars and they were only FWD. Clearly more testing to come...and lowered expectations.

Like i said, in the snow.... my CX-9 was helplessly spinning ONLY the front wheels.

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Not my experience at all. My CX9 has shown no wheel spin at any time on slippery surfaces. I've had other AWD vehicles where the primary end spun momentarily, then the other end started helping. I have not even had that happen with my car. This is not what you are describing. Something needs fixing.

I agree. I've "played" with mine (2016 GT) in the snow and when stepping on the gas hard, I've only gotten all four wheels to spin. I don't recall only the front ever spinning.

markts said:

I agree. I've "played" with mine (2016 GT) in the snow and when stepping on the gas hard, I've only gotten all four wheels to spin. I don't recall only the front ever spinning.

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Interesting. If this is really the case and you never got only front wheel spin, even for 1-2 seconds, then my car has a problem.

danmm7 said:

Interesting. If this is really the case and you never got only front wheel spin, even for 1-2 seconds, then my car has a problem.

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Honestly I can't be sure but I don't recall saying to myself, "Huh. I wonder why the front wheels are spinning?" I can try it again, but it might be a few months. Maybe someone else has had the same experience?

danmm7 said:

So i should not be upset that Mazda lied and exaggerated about one of their key features?

They went through all the trouble to create fancy graphs and videos to tell us all that their AWD system is better, smarter, quicker than the rest of the competitors. They emphasized that their system is PROACTIVE and sends power to rear wheels BEFORE there is any traction loss on the front and this is simply NOT true. As you said it yourself - Mazda AWD is no better than Nissan, Toyota, Honda.
I can tell you that Toyota at least takes it a step further and offers you a "Diff lock" button, so you can force power to be sent to front and rear wheels. This to me is an advantage over Mazda....where you have ZERO control over where the power goes.

Like i said, in the snow.... my CX-9 was helplessly spinning ONLY the front wheels. The rear did not even move - as if i had a FWD car. A newer Audi Q5, on A/S Pirelli tires drove by me with zero issues. Pretty sad.
This is why i am upset and i started to wonder if there is something mechanically wrong with my AWD system. From the response in this thread, it sounds like there is nothing wrong with my car's AWD. It's just designed this way and i should ignore/forget everything about Mazda's claims in their AWD advertising.

Btw, If you're happy/OK when vendors misrepresent their products just to take your money, i am not, sorry.

Just to be clear - I never expected an offroad monster when i bought the CX-9. I would never expect the Mazda to keep up with a Land Cruiser. What I expected is a decent, smart AWD system that can get me out of gravel/dirt roads and snow...without crazy wheel spin, chains, and drama. So far... i have been fully stuck in the snow once going uphill (blame it on Falken A/S tires) and i had one not too impressive trip on dirt/gravel roads where i managed to get in and out of things fine, but so did other cars and they were only FWD. Clearly more testing to come...and lowered expectations.

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First of all, it is called marketing. They did not lie. All companies do it and if you actually believe everything a company says to you, I have a bridge to sell you. Mazda's AWD system is very similar to what the other major players use. Plain and simple. The Mazda AWD system will assist in gravel, rain, and snow. It does not make the car a tractor but it should be better than FWD. I wonder if all that torque at such a low RPM is causing problems. Heck, when you stomp on the CX-9, you feel the torque steer before the rear kicks in and propels you.

The CX-9 did not get you up your snow covered driveway and as you said, IT FELT like only the front wheels were spinning. Maybe it was something else and the tires were the culprit? I generally trust these guys with their comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfCNpmAjF4I

dougal said:

....
The CX-9 did not get you up your snow covered driveway and as you said, IT FELT like only the front wheels were spinning. Maybe it was something else and the tires were the culprit? I generally trust these guys with their comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfCNpmAjF4I

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I am so glad you shared this video. I have seen it a few times. Not too impressed.

Watch it around the 4:00 minute and you will see exactly what i was experiencing on gravel with my CX-9. Front wheels spinning...rear wheels - not moving. If the rear wheels engaged right away with enough power - then the car would not stop and struggle to gain traction like it did. Even the guy in the video was puzzled. See link:

https://youtu.be/wfCNpmAjF4I?t=241

Imagine if this hill was covered with snow...

danmm7 said:

I am glad you shared this video. I have seen it a few times. Not too impressed.

Watch it around the 4:00 minute and you will see exactly what i was experiencing on gravel. Front wheels spinning...rear wheels - not moving. If the rear wheels engaged right away with enough power - then the car would not stop and struggle to gain traction like it did. See link:

https://youtu.be/wfCNpmAjF4I?t=241

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His issue was that he only had 3 wheels on the ground. That could be your issue as well. The way the car performed in the video is exactly the way most AWD systems perform (not 4-wheel drive).

dougal said:

His issue was that he only had 3 wheels on the ground. That could be your issue as well. The way the car performed in the video is exactly the way most AWD systems perform (not 4-wheel drive).

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Hmm... if the Mazda AWD was so smart (27 sensors, sending data 200 times per second) ... WHY power was not sent to the rear wheels that were firmly on the ground with full traction?

The whole point of having AWD is to be able to get out of slippery situation by counting on the wheels (could be 2 or 3 wheels only) that have any traction, right?? Wheel spin always happens because at least one wheel has lost traction. If the response is....well, your AWD Mazda got stuck because one wheel had no traction, then that is a very lame response/excuse. I would be equally screwed with a simple FWD system...why even bother buying an AWD Mazda, seriously?

Btw - i had all my wheels on the ground, in both situations! In the snow - the front wheels were sitting in deep snow and spinning. The rears were not moving and helping at all. No wheel was ever in the air.


From everything i have seen and experienced so far, i think Mazda simply fails to send enough power to the rear in slippery conditions. Maybe it is a limitation with the electric clutches in the tiny rear differential, maybe it is something else.... but i am pretty sure the rear never gets enough power to "push" the car out of a slippery spot, UNLESS the front wheels also have some traction. It feels as if one of the front wheels loses traction 100%, the power to the rear is just not enough to help or it gets cut off completely to prevent damage to rear drive train. My 2 cents....and i'll have a great way to test this soon. (ramp with rollers)

The Hyundai SantaFe that my wife and I were looking at also had a diff lock button. I was kinda digging that.
So let's talk manual overrides. What can we do to fool the Mazda system into favoring the rear wheels more?
It's computer controlled. The computer reads sensors and takes that input to make the decision.

IF sensors indicate XXX conditions.
THEN engage rear wheels.
ELSE FWD only.

We can easily override the outdoor temp sensor to make the car think it's freezing.
The wipers are rain sensing, but I suppose we can turn the wipers on high, manually from inside the car.

What other sensors does it read?



OR There is another option:

Instead of fooling it on the front end, you fool it on the back end.
The rear driveshaft spins with engine power at all times. It's the electrically actuated clutch pack in front of the rear diff that controls power application to the rear wheels.
The computer likely sends a PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) signal to that clutch pack to control lock up and thusly power split.
Just send a 100% duty cycle signal (Straight 12 volts) to the clutch pack to engage it fully and have full time 4WD.

Should be easy to put as a dashboard switch.