2018 CX-5 GT Outer Hydraulic Lash Adjuster Knocking - Covered out of Warranty?

[cx5troubles]

My engine started making a continuous knocking noise 2 days ago. After letting it run for a good 20 minutes the noise continued so I decided to investigate myself. After taking the top off the engine, I noticed it was most likely one of my outer lash adjusters causing the knocking...I noticed there is some flexibility with it (I can push it up and down a bit) and can not do this with any of the others. So now I'm assuming it needs to be replaced. However, my CX-5 is not even 4 months out of warranty and only has 43K miles on it, so my question to everyone is has anybody had any luck getting this issue repaired by Mazda without having to pay a crap ton of money?

I've seen several NHTSA and Mazda service bulletins regarding issues with these lash adjusters on multiple Mazdas and I am shocked they haven't issued a recall or a Special Service Program (SSP) yet. After some research, I have seen so many people posting about this issue on here, reddit and youtube and I'm just not sure how to proceed from here. Others who were still under warranty got their lash adjusters replaced for free, so I'm thinking of bringing it into Mazda to see what they say. I'm just hesitant because I've heard they will charge $400-$500 just to open up the engine and diagnose the problem...I'm honestly debating if its worth the time and effort though. Does anyone have any advice? Or if you had a similar issue what your final outcome was?

A mechanic buddy of mine suggested if I'm replacing one of the lash adjusters then I should replace them all at the same time, but this is like $800-$900 bucks just in parts alone. What would you guys do? Any help/advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[cz5gt]

There is a procedure to remove air (if any). You can try that first. There is tsb on that.
If no help - I would try with a good dealer or your dealer where you got the car and see if Mazda can do a good will to share the cost for full repair.
Get the tsb printed and bring it up to the dealer. If Mazda says no, at least your tried. If you have a video or pictures to add thet may help.
You may have to pay the disassembly job though even if they dont agree to pay or split the repair cost.
Not much else you can do beside fixing it on your own dime or trade in the car. I know it sucks. Its one of the common issues with the Non turbo engines in the 2018-2020 .

 

[edmaz]

First off, the only owners who MIGHT get some goodwill on HLA replacement are the most 'loyal' (i.e. who have had all maintenance done at that dealership). And it sounds like you're way too much of a DIYer to be in that category.

Next, have you experimented with the 'rev' procedure described in the TSB? If you have not, it's something free that you can easily try. For quite a while, before Mazda started the HLA replacement, the rev procedure was the only thing specified in the early TSBs. It must have been helping sometimes, so IMO it's definitely worth trying it a few times to see if there's any reduction in the noise.

And the final thing I'll add is that there has been one case reported here, of an owner who had all 8 of the switchable HLAs replaced. And, although the 'updated' HLAs seemed to resolve the issue, he came back later to say that the noise returned after just a few months. That was a highly credible report, and it convinced me that I'd never even buy the replacement HLAs and do the replacement myself. But as always, your vehicle your choice.

 

[cx5troubles]

First off, the only owners who MIGHT get some goodwill on HLA replacement are the most 'loyal' (i.e. who have had all maintenance done at that dealership). And it sounds like you're way too much of a DIYer to be in that category.

Next, have you experimented with the 'rev' procedure described in the TSB? If you have not, it's something free that you can easily try. For quite a while, before Mazda started the HLA replacement, the rev procedure was the only thing specified in the early TSBs. It must have been helping sometimes, so IMO it's definitely worth trying it a few times to see if there's any reduction in the noise.

And the final thing I'll add is that there has been one case reported here, of an owner who had all 8 of the switchable HLAs replaced. And, although the 'updated' HLAs seemed to resolve the issue, he came back later to say that the noise returned after just a few months. That was a highly credible report, and it convinced me that I'd never even buy the replacement HLAs and do the replacement myself. But as always, your vehicle your choice.

Thanks for your input. I do plan on trying to "bleed" the air from the HLA(s) this weekend before talking or bringing it to my Mazda dealer. But to my knowledge, and after looking at the engine, I see 16 HLAs (8 outer and 8 inner)...should I only be worried about the outer ones since thats where my problem lies? I saw on Mazdausa parts that they don't even have a replacement part available for the outer HLAs, however my local mechanic said he could order one for $90.

So now I'm considering just replacing the one "bad" HLA to save some cash, but after reading your last paragraph I'm worried about just throwing money away. I guess I'll make that call after I try to get the air out. Any thoughts on the problem possibly originating from a faulty rocker arm/roller and in turn causing the HLA issue?

It's so weird, I've never had to replace a lifter in any vehicles that I have owned. Certainly not on my previous Mazdas either (all from the same dealer). I have loyalty in purchasing cars from dealers I trust, but I do prefer to do my own maintenance. I hate to say it but after this debacle I may have to move away from Mazdas for my next vehicle.

Thanks again!

 

[cx5troubles]

There is a procedure to remove air (if any). You can try that first. There is tsb on that.
If no help - I would try with a good dealer or your dealer where you got the car and see if Mazda can do a good will to share the cost for full repair.
Get the tsb printed and bring it up to the dealer. If Mazda says no, at least your tried. If you have a video or pictures to add thet may help.
You may have to pay the disassembly job though even if they dont agree to pay or split the repair cost.
Not much else you can do beside fixing it on your own dime or trade in the car. I know it sucks. Its one of the common issues with the Non turbo engines in the 2018-2020 .

Thanks for your response. I do plan on trying this tsb you mentioned this weekend, but from what I've seen and heard that this is typically a temporary fix. I'd much prefer a permanent solution, but I understand I may be s.o.l. in this case.

 

[edmaz]

.... I do plan on trying to "bleed" the air from the HLA(s) this weekend before talking or bringing it to my Mazda dealer.....

Here's what I'd recommend AFA taking it to Mazda. You've already done the same diagnosis that their tech would do, and confirmed with the 'press' test that one HLA is having a problem. So you certainly don't want to pay a pile of $$ for diagnosis, only to find out that they won't provide any goodwill for the repair. So I suggest just telling them you've already confirmed a bad HLA and simply ask them for a quote on replacement of one HLA, and then ask how much goodwill they would kick in (if any). That way you can find out the information you're looking for, without paying anything upfront.

....
But to my knowledge, and after looking at the engine, I see 16 HLAs (8 outer and 8 inner)...should I only be worried about the outer ones since thats where my problem lies? I saw on Mazdausa parts that they don't even have a replacement part available for the outer HLAs, however my local mechanic said he could order one for $90. ....

Only the 8 switchable HLAs on cylinders 1 and 4 have been identified by Mazda as having the air bubble issue. The supposedly 'improved' part # is PYFA121A0A, and probably not stocked by many dealers, but should be available from the Mazda online sites. $90 is right around what most of them will get.

...
So now I'm considering just replacing the one "bad" HLA to save some cash, but after reading your last paragraph I'm worried about just throwing money away. I guess I'll make that call after I try to get the air out. Any thoughts on the problem possibly originating from a faulty rocker arm/roller and in turn causing the HLA issue? ....

Mazda says the root cause is air bubbles getting trapped inside of the HLA body, and that explanation is confirmed by the 'sponginess' symptom when one is bad, as you discovered yourself. The question of course is why does this happen to some HLAs and vehicles, but not others. I certainly don't have an answer to that and unfortunately neither does Mazda, based on the report I mentioned of the 'improved' replacement HLAs not permanently resolving the air bubble issue. We have 2 of these CD vehicles in the family (2019 and 2020), and there has never been a single lifter noise coming from either one (and I do check for this often). So it continues to remain a mystery why some and not others.

....
It's so weird, I've never had to replace a lifter in any vehicles that I have owned. Certainly not on my previous Mazdas either (all from the same dealer).... I hate to say it but after this debacle I may have to move away from Mazdas for my next vehicle.

One thing to be aware of is that these switchable HLAs are 'special' cases of lifters. They actually have to perform double duty, and change their functionality when the PCM switches to deactivation mode. Whenever those 2 cylinders are deactivated, the lifters have to adjust to the forces and shock from the 2 other cylinders firing while they are not, There are 2 extra OCVs (one for each deactivated cylinder), which adjusts the flow of oil into those switchable HLAs. Different flow rate when deactivated versus normal operation. So given that level of complexity, it's easy to imagine how many different ways excessive air bubbles can form in the oil and get trapped in the HLAs.

AFA giving up on Mazda, one piece of extremely good news is that they have rolled back the clock and are now providing the option of buying a non-CD version of the 2024 CX-5, by dropping back to the good old gen 1 PY-VPS engine

So if you liked the older Mazdas and its within your budget, you might want to consider swapping the 2018 for a 2024 non-CD. No cracked heads. No noise from switchable HLAs. No coolant control valves crapping out. That and all of the rest of the CD-related $hit gone. Just one more thing for you to think about

 

[stickerbush]

So if you liked the older Mazdas and its within your budget, you might want to consider swapping the 2018 for a 2024 non-CD. No cracked heads. No noise from switchable HLAs. No coolant control valves crapping out. That and all of the rest of the CD-related $hit gone.

We know that some 2024 CX5's do not have CD due to unavailability of certain computer chips but do we know with any degree of certaintity that the vehicles without CD do not have any of the CD-related parts? I can imagine a scenario where the most cost effective thing to do would be to keep most of the parts the same and just disable CD in software. It's easy to speculate about this but it would be great to know for sure what the parts differences are between models that have CD and models that do not have CD.

 

[edmaz]

We know that some 2024 CX5's do not have CD due to unavailability of certain computer chips but do we know with any degree of certaintity that the vehicles without CD do not have any of the CD-related parts? I can imagine a scenario where the most cost effective thing to do would be to keep most of the parts the same and just disable CD in software. It's easy to speculate about this but it would be great to know for sure what the parts differences are between models that have CD and models that do not have CD.

Based on very reliable feedback from owners posted on other sites, these non-CD CX-5 vehicles are definitely the original gen 1 PY-VPS engines. And confirmation of that is that the VIN of these vehicles has 'L' in position 8, instead of 'M', which is the same engine code as 2017 CX-5 and earlier.

And AFA that 'parts shortage' thing, IMO this may instead very well be Mazda's clever way of starting to bail out of CD completely. Considering how much lead time and planning is required to produce a large number of these 'new' non-CD vehicles, it's not something that could not have been a last-minute, rushed resolution to a parts problem. And why is there not a shortage of parts for the non-cd engine as well? Lots of puzzling aspects related to this. I guess we'll find out the true story when the 2025 vehicles start rolling out later this year.

 

[stickerbush]

Based on very reliable feedback from owners posted on other sites, these non-CD CX-5 vehicles are definitely the original gen 1 PY-VPS engines. And confirmation of that is that the VIN of these vehicles has 'L' in position 8, instead of 'M', which is the same engine code as 2017 CX-5 and earlier.

And AFA that 'parts shortage' thing, IMO this may instead very well be Mazda's clever way of starting to bail out of CD completely. Considering how much lead time and planning is required to produce a large number of these 'new' non-CD vehicles, it's not something that could not have been a last-minute, rushed resolution to a parts problem. And why is there not a shortage of parts for the non-cd engine as well? Lots of puzzling aspects related to this. I guess we'll find out the true story when the 2025 vehicles start rolling out later this year.

Interesting, thanks! Just confirmed that my 2024 without CD has the 'L' in the VIN as you mentioned. I traded my 2020 in January based on the availibility of models without CD and iStop (and the 0% financing that was available then).

 

[edmaz]

Interesting, thanks! Just confirmed that my 2024 without CD has the 'L' in the VIN as you mentioned. I traded my 2020 in January based on the availibility of models without CD and iStop (and the 0% financing that was available then).

IMO you are VERY fortunate to have dumped all of those potential CD-related issues, and replaced it with the highly regarded gen 1 engine, which has none of that trash associated with it. Good for you

 

[stickerbush]

IMO you are VERY fortunate to have dumped all of those potential CD-related issues, and replaced it with the highly regarded gen 1 engine, which has none of that trash associated with it. Good for you

It helped that my 2020 had transmission failure that is now known to be related to CD.

 

[dunhillmc]

while parked, get the engine up to 2500 RPM for 5 min. Do it twice if it doesn't stop after that

 

[cx5troubles]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Update:
Bleeding the air out of the HLA did not work unfortunately so I went ahead with replacing the adjuster. However upon reassembly, my engine is now misfiring. When I go to start my car, it struggles to turn over and takes a good 15 seconds for it to actually start. However when it finally does start it runs incredible rough, one time it even stalled out on me quite quickly. Theres an extreme shaking/vibration through the whole vehicle and my check engine light is now on. Any thoughts what might be causing this?

I got frustrated and called it for the night but I do plan on taking the top off the engine again tomorrow and trying to diagnose the issue. I’m hoping it’s something minor like a rocker arm got knocked out of place but if you guys have any thoughts on what I should look for it would be much appreciated. Thanks again!

 

[edmaz]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Update:
Bleeding the air out of the HLA did not work unfortunately so I went ahead with replacing the adjuster. However upon reassembly, my engine is now misfiring. When I go to start my car, it struggles to turn over and takes a good 15 seconds for it to actually start. However when it finally does start it runs incredible rough, one time it even stalled out on me quite quickly. Theres an extreme shaking/vibration through the whole vehicle and my check engine light is now on. Any thoughts what might be causing this?

I got frustrated and called it for the night but I do plan on taking the top off the engine again tomorrow and trying to diagnose the issue. I’m hoping it’s something minor like a rocker arm got knocked out of place but if you guys have any thoughts on what I should look for it would be much appreciated. Thanks again!

Sounds like a timing issue. What exactly did you do with the chain, while the cam was off the head?

 

[cx5troubles]

Sounds like a timing issue. What exactly did you do with the chain, while the cam was off the head?

The HLA that went bad was in the 4th cylinder so after taking the cam brackets off there was enough play in the cam to just lift it slightly and pull the HLA out/slide the new one in. So basically I never did anything with the timing chain at all…that’s why I’m hoping it’s just a rocker arm out of place and also why it threw a check engine code. If it’s not a rocker arm issue then I’m just not sure what to check first after that. I’ll update my post again tomorrow when I take the top off and let you guys know what I see.

 

[edmaz]

The HLA that went bad was in the 4th cylinder so after taking the cam brackets off there was enough play in the cam to just lift it slightly and pull the HLA out/slide the new one in. ...

The procedure that Mazda specifies for this job is to relieve tensioner pressure and pin the chain with the use of a couple of bolts going through service ports in the timing cover, so that it gets locked into place relative to the cam sprocket.

Although I've never tried something like what you did, it seems that the cam sprocket (and the attached chain) must have dropped down somewhat, when you raised the other end of the cam. Sort of like a lever in reverse. And with the tensioner still applying full pressure on the chain, it seems possible the chain could have jumped a tooth on the crank sprocket (which of course you wouldn't be able to see). Just speculation there, and I certainly hope that's not the case and will be something much easier and simpler instead. I hope this works out ok for you!

 

[cx5troubles]

The procedure that Mazda specifies for this job is to relieve tensioner pressure and pin the chain with the use of a couple of bolts going through service ports in the timing cover, so that it gets locked into place relative to the cam sprocket.

Although I've never tried something like what you did, it seems that the cam sprocket (and the attached chain) must have dropped down somewhat, when you raised the other end of the cam. Sort of like a lever in reverse. And with the tensioner still applying full pressure on the chain, it seems possible the chain could have jumped a tooth on the crank sprocket (which of course you wouldn't be able to see). Just speculation there, and I certainly hope that's not the case and will be something much easier and simpler instead. I hope this works out ok for you!

Just wanted to update yall. Took the top back off and found that I somehow knocked a rocker arm loose on the 2nd cylinder which was causing it to misfire. Once I put everything back together it started just fine and the knocking was gone. After a good 10-15 minute test drive then turning it off and back on, I was able to clear the check engine code as well. Everything sounds good and appears to be back to normal so hopefully this problem is in the rearview. Thanks again to everyone who provided input and advice…I sincerely hope none of you with the 2.5L ever have to deal with this BS lol

 

[edmaz]

Glad it ultimately worked out so well or you