Volkswagen Ordered To Recall 500K Vehicles Over Its Own Malicious Programming

That's certainly possible. Perhaps that's what the $18+ billion in possible fines will go toward. I can see how tracking that with used/second hand cars would be difficult. Not mention vehicles that have moved counties/states. If VW is going to handle the recall there are many questions that's need to be answered? How do you deal with people who've taken their cars to multiple dealerships, independent shops, or none at all. Will I get 4 recall notices because I've taken my car to four dealership services shops? Will I get none because I've never taken it to a service shop? What about people who've purchased cars....

Interesting points throughout this. Makes me think, in the end, the regulatory agencies in any of the states and/or countries won't expect to catch ALL vehicles but they may see a benefit to casting the widest possible regulatory net. VW will, of course, have to pay for the remediation whatever it is (modification, replacement) and they will have to set aside sufficient capital to cover the risks: the bigger the net, the bigger the risk. Just like Exxon and BP did. That alone will have a desired effect; chucking 12 to 14 billion into an escrow has a very sobering effect on cash flow when added to that 18 billion in fines (I would think the fines are in addition to the costs of remediation). Since this is possibly the first time anybody's been caught willfully gaming certification testing on such a grand scale the desire will be (or should be) to set an example.
 
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And you should read the article you referenced and its sources before making claims about cost-savings. That "hundreds of thousands of dollars" quoted does not include the cost of purchasing CNG/LPG-run vehicles (more than diesel or gas vehicles) or upgrading current vehicles to run on CNG/LPG (a $10,000+ per vehicle fee).

What? CNG and LPG tractors are about the same price as diesel tractors. The difference in cost is in the pressurized fuel tanks. So, yes, a bit more but less than the 10,000 cost to retrofit. Even if it cost $10,000 more, that's easily worth it to save over $100,000-$200,000 in fuel costs (not to mention extended oil changes and cleaner exhaust).


The fuel savings also assume a "diesel gallon equivalent" of LPG. Since LPG has a much lower energy density than diesel this means more fuel and larger fuel storage tanks, which means less storage space and/or more weight. This means less towing capacity and less profit per haul. Assuming a constant fuel volume any savings are severely impacted by the relative cost of LPG to diesel fuel, which right now, is not in CNG/LPG's favor.


Currently, even with the recent plunge in diesel prices (which is temporary), CNG and LPG pricing is more than favorable with diesel. Yes, comparisons must be made in DGE (diesel gallon equivalent). CNG is generally sold by the GGE (gallon gasoline equivalent) and is going for around $1.75 GGE. To convert to the energy equivalent of diesel, multiply the gallons by .88 (or the price by 1.13). CNG is about $1.98/DGE while diesel is about $2.50/gal (or DGE). It doesn't take a Nobel winning economist to see that a fleet of CNG trucks is going to be very beneficial from a cost standpoint alone. And, as diesel goes back to historic norms, it makes even more sense.


But don't take it from me, take it from the people who own the trucks:


http://www.lpgasmagazine.com/factory-built-propane-fueled-bobtail-now-a-reality/

The propane vehicles are comparable in power to gasoline and diesel, cheaper to fuel and cleaner for the environment.

Taylor cites several key selling points for the propane marketer utilizing the chassis as a bobtail: the cost to operate will be substantially less than a diesel-powered vehicle; warranty and maintenance issues will be minimal compared to the diesel engine; and costly requirements like anti-idling and regeneration on new diesel emissions technology will be avoided.While the selling points of the LPG chassis appear aplenty, perhaps the biggest obstacle is the perception by some who still question propane’s reliability as an engine fuel.
“I hear it frequently – been there, done that; won’t work then, won’t work now,” Taylor says. “For those guys, I just say thank you for your feedback and I look to the early adopters and advocates because they are the companies who will get this project off the ground and ensure our success. I truly believe anyone who has concerns will follow the move to propane autogas soon.”

Or LPG can be introduced along with diesel for big savings and cleaner exhaust:

http://gastoday.com.au/news/lpg_delivers_big_savings_for_diesel_trucks/004552/


http://seekingalpha.com/article/234...rucks-could-give-a-boost-to-propane-suppliers

The bottom line is that "serious advances" are not needed for trucking to move to LPG/CNG, the technology is here today and it's cheaper.


I can cite many examples of states with counties that do not require yearly emissions or safety inspections. You get a statement in the mail every year saying "pay up or your registration will expire" and that's it. Few of these I'd consider to be "backward."

We are not talking about whether inspections are required. The point is, many states will not renew the licenses if the vehicles model/year doesn't comply with federal regulations. They will require proof that the recall work was completed. Also, VW may be required to flash any non-compliant vehicle that comes into it's shop for any kind of work. Of course the recall work will be free.
 
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I can cite many examples of states with counties that do not require yearly emissions or safety inspections. You get a statement in the mail every year saying "pay up or your registration will expire" and that's it. Few of these I'd consider to be "backward."

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily matter. In the CARB states, in particular, there are few or no emissions inspections. You can register a car if it is CARB certified. If the CARB certification is updated to require recall work, you won't be able to renew your registration until that recall work is done (and you or the car company provide appropriate paperwork to the appropriate agency).

Those states are: Arizona, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, and District of Columbia

They vary in their exact implementations, but in general, there are no emissions tests or an emissions test that consists of plugging in to the OBD-II port and making sure the equipment is all there (which passes on today's unrepaired cars).

Granted, there's already a crowd of VW enthusiasts that are prepared to re-flash their ECUs after getting the recall if it turns out that the "fix" removes everything they love about their cars, but that's a separate problem (and a political/ethical/philosophical debate that's probably not worth arguing about because no one is going to change their mind).


Also, hello, I was a lurker on this forum a few months ago as I wanted to buy a car because I was graduating from college, moving from Texas to Washington, and starting my first job. Spent a long time debating between the CX-5, Volkswagen Jetta Sportwagen TDI, and a few others. I test drove a 2015 CX-5 and liked it, but I wasn't convinced I wanted/needed an SUV. Ended up getting a good deal on a used Sportwagen TDI with the intent that if I did end up wanting an SUV, it wouldn't be hard to sell a used TDI (particularly because it was from Texas and had never seen snow/salt). Suddenly that plan doesn't seem as solid as it used to.
 
Thank God for Fracking It has given us lower prices for LPG

Fracking is, no doubt, a double-edged sword. But, as oil prices rise, fracking will pick up again thus keeping the prices of the gaseous products like LPG/CNG low relative to gasoline/diesel. These are largely by-products of oil fracking and the US has a huge surplus but it is more expensive to export than crude. These factors will keep the gaseous products cheaper than the liquids for many years to come. And we don't need to import it from the Middle East, one of USA's natural resources.
 
VW's former CEO is getting a 32 million dollar pension. Not including his severance package from leaving.

http://time.com/4047499/volkswagen-ceo-martin-winterkorn-pension/
...and? His pension has nothing to do with this issue. Pension is part of the contract signed between him and VW when he became CEO. To not receive the agreed pension he would have to be found to be in breach of his contract otherwise VW would be open to legal ramifications, should he decide to go that route.

That's good because I hear cigarettes can be expensive in the slammer. (wink)
LOL, you still think he's going to jail. My feelings on prison time aside, there's no evidence of his knowledge of the issue, there's currently no indication any laws were broken in Germany, and there's no way Germany would extradite him.

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily matter. In the CARB states, in particular, there are few or no emissions inspections. You can register a car if it is CARB certified. If the CARB certification is updated to require recall work, you won't be able to renew your registration until that recall work is done (and you or the car company provide appropriate paperwork to the appropriate agency).

Those states are: Arizona, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, and District of Columbia

They vary in their exact implementations, but in general, there are no emissions tests or an emissions test that consists of plugging in to the OBD-II port and making sure the equipment is all there (which passes on today's unrepaired cars).

Granted, there's already a crowd of VW enthusiasts that are prepared to re-flash their ECUs after getting the recall if it turns out that the "fix" removes everything they love about their cars, but that's a separate problem (and a political/ethical/philosophical debate that's probably not worth arguing about because no one is going to change their mind).


Also, hello, I was a lurker on this forum a few months ago as I wanted to buy a car because I was graduating from college, moving from Texas to Washington, and starting my first job. Spent a long time debating between the CX-5, Volkswagen Jetta Sportwagen TDI, and a few others. I test drove a 2015 CX-5 and liked it, but I wasn't convinced I wanted/needed an SUV. Ended up getting a good deal on a used Sportwagen TDI with the intent that if I did end up wanting an SUV, it wouldn't be hard to sell a used TDI (particularly because it was from Texas and had never seen snow/salt). Suddenly that plan doesn't seem as solid as it used to.
Yeah, people in CARB states will have some tough decisions to make for sure. One of the (many) reasons I chose to never live in those states/districts you listed. I'd still like to see VW take a mechanical approach to the "fix" since it'd likely involve the smallest impact to the car's performance. I'm not nervous about the resale of our Jetta since we've committed to running it into the ground but I can see where one could be. I'm jealous of the Sportwagen. I really wanted one but I couldn't convince my wife to buy a "station wagon." I should keep my eye out for good deals though. I'd pick up an under-valued SportWagen or Jetta TDI Cup in a heartbeat!
 
VW diesel scandal spreads to Audi, Porsche and possibly even BMW

"Meanwhile, theres word from the German newspaper Auto Bild that BMWs diesel engines were also significantly exceeding regulatory limits, CNBC reports, with the BMW X3 2.0-liter diesel model spitting out 11 times more nitrogen oxide than the current level set by the European Union."

Audi's R&D boss, Porsche engine chief to quit: Bild

"Two of Volkswagen group's highest-ranking engineers will be forced to quit as the German carmaker is pushing steps to clear up the diesel emissions scandal, Bild reported on Thursday, citing unnamed company sources.

Audi's R&D boss Ulrich Hackenberg, a long-time VW brand executive and Porsche's engine chief Wolfgang Hatz will be dismissed at a meeting of the supervisory board on Friday, the newspaper said.

VW and Porsche declined comment while Audi couldn't be reached for comment."
 
...and? His pension has nothing to do with this issue. Pension is part of the contract signed between him and VW when he became CEO. To not receive the agreed pension he would have to be found to be in breach of his contract otherwise VW would be open to legal ramifications, should he decide to go that route.


LOL, you still think he's going to jail. My feelings on prison time aside, there's no evidence of his knowledge of the issue, there's currently no indication any laws were broken in Germany, and there's no way Germany would extradite him.


Yeah, people in CARB states will have some tough decisions to make for sure. One of the (many) reasons I chose to never live in those states/districts you listed. I'd still like to see VW take a mechanical approach to the "fix" since it'd likely involve the smallest impact to the car's performance. I'm not nervous about the resale of our Jetta since we've committed to running it into the ground but I can see where one could be. I'm jealous of the Sportwagen. I really wanted one but I couldn't convince my wife to buy a "station wagon." I should keep my eye out for good deals though. I'd pick up an under-valued SportWagen or Jetta TDI Cup in a heartbeat!

One of the things I don't miss about the Socialist Republic of California
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German news headlines today.

• Transport Ministry: Nationwide 2.8 million VW affected
• manipulation on 1.6 and 2.0 TDI, and possibly 1.2 TDI
• Including light commercial vehicles (VW Transporter)
• Porsche CEO Mller suceeds Winterkorn
• boards Hackenberg, Hatz and Neuer must also probably go
• Skoda CEO Vahland will replace VW-USA-Boss Horn
• Also in Europe VW models are affected
• Worldwide it's about 11 million cars, including Audi, Skoda and Seat
• 482,000 cars in the United States, class actions run
• Germany will also charge VW
• VW CEO Winterkorn was not aware of the manipulations
• VW is preparing itself with billion-provision

The Swiss have forbidden the sale of all affected cars, that's around 180'000.

http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/Schweiz-verbietet-Verkauf-von-manipulierten-VWs-24249751
 
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Yep, VW being debt-ridden does not have a strong Balance Sheet to weather this fiasco easily. Just be glad most of us here don't own any VW product.
 
Volkswagen’s falsification of pollution tests opens the door to a very different car industry

"EMISSIONS of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and other nasties from cars’ and lorries’ exhausts cause large numbers of early deaths—perhaps 58,000 a year in America alone, one study suggests. So the scandal that has engulfed Volkswagen (VW) this week is no minor misdemeanour or victimless crime (see article)."

"Though few Chinese motorists buy diesel cars, the scandal may prompt its government to tackle the firm for overstating fuel-economy figures for petrol engines."

" In a speech this month, America’s deputy attorney-general, Sally Yates, said that from now on, fining businesses would take second place to pursuing criminal and civil charges against individuals. An accused firm will no longer get credit for co-operating with investigations (as VW says it will) unless it gives the feds the names of every manager or employee involved in wrongdoing, and seeks to gather and submit evidence of their personal responsibility. "
 
That would be a good start!

Volkswagen’s falsification of pollution tests opens the door to a very different car industry

"EMISSIONS of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and other nasties from cars’ and lorries’ exhausts cause large numbers of early deaths—perhaps 58,000 a year in America alone, one study suggests. So the scandal that has engulfed Volkswagen (VW) this week is no minor misdemeanour or victimless crime (see article)."

"Though few Chinese motorists buy diesel cars, the scandal may prompt its government to tackle the firm for overstating fuel-economy figures for petrol engines."

" In a speech this month, America’s deputy attorney-general, Sally Yates, said that from now on, fining businesses would take second place to pursuing criminal and civil charges against individuals. An accused firm will no longer get credit for co-operating with investigations (as VW says it will) unless it gives the feds the names of every manager or employee involved in wrongdoing, and seeks to gather and submit evidence of their personal responsibility. "

Now let's see if the Feds really do it!! They really should have done the same with GM!!!
 
I wouldn't be surprised if this ends VW's sale of diesels in the US though, at least for awhile.

My understanding is, VW can't sell the 2015's and the 2016's. Owners can sell them, for now. But, yeah, if I owned one of these, I'd be royally pissed!! There will likely be a class action suit to divvy up the 18 Billion dollar fine to effected owners.
 
And so it begins!

CNN Money_

" Since the EPA revealed a week ago that VW used software in its diesel-powered cars to cheat on emission tests, there have been 89 federal lawsuits filed against VW across the country.

Most of those suits have been on behalf of car owners who argue the value of their cars has been hurt by VW's deception. The suits seek class action status, and could produce verdicts in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Toyota (TM) agreed to pay $1.1 billion to settle a class action suit with owners of cars that suffered from an unintended acceleration problem."

I owned a 2009 Toyota and ditched it. I received about USD $900 a couple of years later from the above suit.
 
Most of those suits have been on behalf of car owners who argue the value of their cars has been hurt by VW's deception.
difficult to substantiate that at this point isn't it ?

there is no resell value unless you actually re-sell it :)

it's all really a guessing game at this point -there's enough options and opinions out there for everyone to find one they like
 
Not difficult to predict that TDi resale values are declining, reputable sources of that data will soon confirm it in their monthly/periodic updates (so it will be easy to substantiate soon enough). None of this news is good for any VW resale values (gas or diesel). Many customers are done with VW, with its claim to fame being the biggest fraud in automotive history. Some people like myself will not own VW products now or in the future.

Fortunately this is a Mazda forum, so most own Mazda's.... (I used to own CX-5, sold it to a family member who's very happy with it, currently own Lexus, Mercedes, Honda cars).
 
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