Help Me Understand Engines Imported From Japan

S

StevieB

Member
Seems like there is NO solid info on this subject on the internet. LOTS of importers, all happy to make a buck, but not a one that I could find with any really useful info. What is this all about?

From what I can tell, or rumor I have heard, is that Japan required a car's engine to be replaced after a certain number of miles. Is this true? If so, why?

It also appears that high-performance engine are falling out of the trees in Japan, ready to be scooped up like so many cherry blossoms and shipped to the US. What's the real story?

I just read, on Wikipedia, the following (I have a Protege5, btw)
The 2.0 L (1991 cc) FS has an 83 mm bore and 92 mm stroke and produces 130 hp and (97 kW) and 135 lbfft (183 Nm) in its most common variant up to 170 hp in the Japanese Domestic Market. In 1998 the engine evolved into the FS-DE by undergoing several changes, most notably a distributorless ignition as well as the move from hydraulic lifters to solid shim-on-bucket lifters. Japan received a higher-performance 170 hp version, known as the FS-ZE. Mazdaspeed decided to turbocharge the regular FS-DE, as the FS-DET in 2003 for the Mazdaspeed Proteg and it generated 170 hp (127 kW) and 160 lbfft (217 Nm), the same hp rating as the naturally aspirated JDM FS-ZE but with a sharper torque curve. This means that the Mazdaspeed Proteg's engine is internally identical to the regular FS-DE, except with a turbocharger installed onto it.

Now, wait a minute, here. How could the Mazdaspeed engine be "internally identical to the regular FS-DE, except with a turbocharger installed onto it," yet make the same horsepower? To my way of thinking, "internally identical" means the same pistons with the same compression ratio, same cams, etc- that all the things that make more or less horsepower are the same. So if the two motors make the same horsepower, they CAN'T be "internally identical," unless the turbo is just there for show and isn't actually DOING anything.

Now, that just can't be the case. So what IS the story??

And I have some more specific questions:

Is the JDM 170HP a drop-in replacement for the 2.0 in my P5? I mean, drop in and plug up and go, with no mods to make it pass US emission tests? (Atlanta test emissions yearly, no pass means no re-registration.)

If not, what is necessary to get it to pass?

I am guessing that the pistons in the JDM motor are higher-compression- can it be turbo'ed without going "boom?" Actually, if the JDM produces 170HP, and (if I understand correctly) a cat-back and CAI add approx. 15-20 HP, I'd probably be happy as a clam at high tide with the resulting 185-190 HP, especially if I thought I'd have a reliable engine- and that would be far less trouble than installing a turbo on anything, wouldn't it?

Does the FS-ZE engine have (dare I hope?) forged pistons and/or rods?

What should I expect to pay of a JDM FS-ZE engine? Any suggestions for who I should buy from?

Any suggestions appreciated. Oh, and I did a forum search. It has been my experience that forum search tools are useless- this forum, included.
 
You're confusing yourself
Fsde ( what you have) 130 hp. MP3 got 140 hp from a better tune and vtcs delete
Fsdet ( what you have with a turbo bolted on) 170 hp
Fsze ( higher compression better cams. Not nearly the emissions stuff we have gave it the extra power, along with a few other things better intake tune etc)

Supposedly in japan the motors are replaced every 100k kilometers because after that they pollute more in theory. Now if this is true what you have to look at is people not giving 2 s**** about maintenance and runing the s*** out of them because at 60k miles their motor is replaced. Lots of 240 owners that do sr20 swaps don't last long unless they rebuild them. Although I think this rumor just came from the honda community so that they could sell their ragged out civics with swaps that had "70k" miles on them

The fsze will bolt right up. Several things need changed out from the fsde. Some people have pinging issues others don't. You're better off getting pistons and cams and doing a rebuild or going turbo
 
I appreciate the help, but I am afraid you have only confused me further by bringing yet another engine/car into the discussion. So now we have FOUR cars/engines being considered:

US-spec Mazda Protg with FS-DE with 130 HP motor;
US-spec Mazda MP3 with FS-DE tuned n/a 140HP motor;
US-spec MazdaSpeed Protg with FS-DE-T factory turbo 170HP motor;
Japan-spec Mazda n/s FS-ZE 170HP motor.;
the four motors listed in ascending HP ratings.

Some things seem to be emerging:
10-15HP is easy to achieve, with CAI and cat-back, on virtually any engine.
IMHO, 170 n/a is preferred over 170 turbo'ed. Quicker throttle response, less stress on the engine (you can't have a BOF stick if you don't HAVE a BOV.)
JDM motors are a crap shoot- you don't know who to trust (even a "reputable" importer may sell you a worn-out motor.) I'd agree that if you build it yourself you better know what you have. Still, forged pistons and rods are running about $1100-1200- JDM motors seem to sell for $400 or so less than that. IF JDM FS-ZE motor has forged innards, it could be cheaper even after a rebuild;

I'm not sure Japan-market cars have less stringent emission controls than the US. Seems I have heard that emission regs in most countries are close enough that makers are building all their cars to the same emission specs, because economies of scale makes it less expensive.

Assume, just for the moment, one has a sound, 170HP FS-ZE motor and a US-emissions compliant FS-DE equipped car- couldn't you make the ZE motor meet emissions with the DE emissions equipment? I am sorry, tweety, but I don't buy that the emissions control difference is responsible for 40HP difference- you yourself said "higher compression/ better cams/ intake tune," which probably would be the lion's share of the difference.

Mixing and matching parts from two or more engines to make one "better" engine is a time-honored method of back-yard hot-rodding (consider the Ford 351W/351C 2v/4v/open chamber/closed chamber, Chevy small-block and Ford flathead stories, probably dozens others.) It seems to me we Mazda FS owners may have a similar opportunity just waiting to be exploited- that's really what this thread is about, I hope.
 
StevieB said:
Seems like there is NO solid info on this subject on the internet. LOTS of importers, all happy to make a buck, but not a one that I could find with any really useful info. What is this all about?

From what I can tell, or rumor I have heard, is that Japan required a car's engine to be replaced after a certain number of miles. Is this true? If so, why?

It also appears that high-performance engine are falling out of the trees in Japan, ready to be scooped up like so many cherry blossoms and shipped to the US. What's the real story?

I just read, on Wikipedia, the following (I have a Protege5, btw)
The 2.0 L (1991 cc) FS has an 83 mm bore and 92 mm stroke and produces 130 hp and (97 kW) and 135 lbfft (183 Nm) in its most common variant up to 170 hp in the Japanese Domestic Market. In 1998 the engine evolved into the FS-DE by undergoing several changes, most notably a distributorless ignition as well as the move from hydraulic lifters to solid shim-on-bucket lifters. Japan received a higher-performance 170 hp version, known as the FS-ZE. Mazdaspeed decided to turbocharge the regular FS-DE, as the FS-DET in 2003 for the Mazdaspeed Proteg and it generated 170 hp (127 kW) and 160 lbfft (217 Nm), the same hp rating as the naturally aspirated JDM FS-ZE but with a sharper torque curve. This means that the Mazdaspeed Proteg's engine is internally identical to the regular FS-DE, except with a turbocharger installed onto it.

Now, wait a minute, here. How could the Mazdaspeed engine be "internally identical to the regular FS-DE, except with a turbocharger installed onto it," yet make the same horsepower? To my way of thinking, "internally identical" means the same pistons with the same compression ratio, same cams, etc- that all the things that make more or less horsepower are the same. So if the two motors make the same horsepower, they CAN'T be "internally identical," unless the turbo is just there for show and isn't actually DOING anything.

Now, that just can't be the case. So what IS the story??

And I have some more specific questions:

Is the JDM 170HP a drop-in replacement for the 2.0 in my P5? I mean, drop in and plug up and go, with no mods to make it pass US emission tests? (Atlanta test emissions yearly, no pass means no re-registration.)

If not, what is necessary to get it to pass?

I am guessing that the pistons in the JDM motor are higher-compression- can it be turbo'ed without going "boom?" Actually, if the JDM produces 170HP, and (if I understand correctly) a cat-back and CAI add approx. 15-20 HP, I'd probably be happy as a clam at high tide with the resulting 185-190 HP, especially if I thought I'd have a reliable engine- and that would be far less trouble than installing a turbo on anything, wouldn't it?

Does the FS-ZE engine have (dare I hope?) forged pistons and/or rods?

What should I expect to pay of a JDM FS-ZE engine? Any suggestions for who I should buy from?

Any suggestions appreciated. Oh, and I did a forum search. It has been my experience that forum search tools are useless- this forum, included.
Click to expand...

The Wikipedia entry actually has it ass about tit and is more wrong then right.

StevieB said:
Some things seem to be emerging:
10-15HP is easy to achieve, with CAI and cat-back, on virtually any engine.
IMHO, 170 n/a is preferred over 170 turbo'ed. Quicker throttle response, less stress on the engine (you can't have a BOF stick if you don't HAVE a BOV.)
JDM motors are a crap shoot- you don't know who to trust (even a "reputable" importer may sell you a worn-out motor.) I'd agree that if you build it yourself you better know what you have. Still, forged pistons and rods are running about $1100-1200- JDM motors seem to sell for $400 or so less than that. IF JDM FS-ZE motor has forged innards, it could be cheaper even after a rebuild;
Click to expand...

Biggest thing with teh FS-ZE is not to run the stock exhaust header.

Ive already posted on this today already. But not all FS-ZE are made the same and importers sometimes get it wrong. i.e. they import the MPV engine from 99-00 which used diff cams or, they get the 02-03 engine which had less power.

Some of the 626s IIRC got the higher compression but the normal Intake Manifold.

Another thing to consider is that the stock FS engine has the FSJ1 throttle body while the 626/ZE got the linear throttle which improves throttle response at the expense of low rev potential bucking (if you have poor accelerator control).

StevieB said:
Assume, just for the moment, one has a sound, 170HP FS-ZE motor and a US-emissions compliant FS-DE equipped car- couldn't you make the ZE motor meet emissions with the DE emissions equipment? I am sorry, tweety, but I don't buy that the emissions control difference is responsible for 40HP difference- you yourself said "higher compression/ better cams/ intake tune," which probably would be the lion's share of the difference.

Mixing and matching parts from two or more engines to make one "better" engine is a time-honored method of back-yard hot-rodding (consider the Ford 351W/351C 2v/4v/open chamber/closed chamber, Chevy small-block and Ford flathead stories, probably dozens others.) It seems to me we Mazda FS owners may have a similar opportunity just waiting to be exploited- that's really what this thread is about, I hope.
Click to expand...

Japan-spec Mazda N/A Mazdaspeed 173hp motor. Is an engine you missed.

Why would you use the DE emissions equipment? It will literally kill the engine. Plus people pass emissions all the time using a good second cat in conjunction with headers.

The ZE also has higher compression, higher compression results in a more complete burn. (Not always theres more to it, like expansion ratios etc.)
 
StevieB said:
I appreciate the help, but I am afraid you have only confused me further by bringing yet another engine/car into the discussion. So now we have FOUR cars/engines being considered:

US-spec Mazda Protg with FS-DE with 130 HP motor;
US-spec Mazda MP3 with FS-DE tuned n/a 140HP motor;
US-spec MazdaSpeed Protg with FS-DE-T factory turbo 170HP motor;
Japan-spec Mazda n/s FS-ZE 170HP motor.;
the four motors listed in ascending HP ratings.
Click to expand...

There's only two engines, not four.

FSDE
FSZE

You already know about the naturally aspirated one. the one in the MP3 is the same FSDE just with a Mazda tuned ECU for an extra 10 hp bump. The Mazdaspeed FSDE is the same engine but the turbo bumps it from the naturally aspirated 130 to 170hp.

Then there's the FSZE which was a JDM engine only that is naturally aspirated at 170.


So just to reiterate, two engines, just the FSDE came in different configurations.


Speaking of which I'm getting a JDM FSDE, which if anyone knows if there's a difference between that and the USDM, I would like to know
 
Ok so I don't mean to threadjack...but I had a question and answer.

im2bad: where are you getting the DE at? Japan? more than likely it's a ZE. I have been calling engine importers for the last week trying to find a good low mileage engine. everything JDM seems to be a ZE mis-advertised as an american spec DE.

Now..I have recently bought a 2003 ES with a blown motor and plan to flip the car after putting a good engine in. I'm curious to why the emissions stuff that is already on a FSZE would kill the engine? I'm able to get a low mileage 50k mile motor for a measly $800 shipped to my garage...straight from japan...but I would like to know if stock fsde vs fsze...if this ze will work just fine without much modification. I have no problem switching things over from the american fs to the japanese fs but i definitely like how a 170 hp stock motor would feel in the es.
 
im2bad4ya said:
There's only two engines, not four.

FSDE
FSZE

You already know about the naturally aspirated one. the one in the MP3 is the same FSDE just with a Mazda tuned ECU for an extra 10 hp bump. The Mazdaspeed FSDE is the same engine but the turbo bumps it from the naturally aspirated 130 to 170hp.

Then there's the FSZE which was a JDM engine only that is naturally aspirated at 170.


So just to reiterate, two engines, just the FSDE came in different configurations.


Speaking of which I'm getting a JDM FSDE, which if anyone knows if there's a difference between that and the USDM, I would like to know
Click to expand...

Theres more then two engines.

USDM DE
EDM DE
JDM DE
3 Different ZEs

I posted the answer to your last question in your thread.


03protolx said:
Ok so I don't mean to threadjack...but I had a question and answer.

im2bad: where are you getting the DE at? Japan? more than likely it's a ZE. I have been calling engine importers for the last week trying to find a good low mileage engine. everything JDM seems to be a ZE mis-advertised as an american spec DE.

Now..I have recently bought a 2003 ES with a blown motor and plan to flip the car after putting a good engine in. I'm curious to why the emissions stuff that is already on a FSZE would kill the engine? I'm able to get a low mileage 50k mile motor for a measly $800 shipped to my garage...straight from japan...but I would like to know if stock fsde vs fsze...if this ze will work just fine without much modification. I have no problem switching things over from the american fs to the japanese fs but i definitely like how a 170 hp stock motor would feel in the es.
Click to expand...

Pinging. Basically.
 
so if I do this engine swap, and swap all of the US emissions stuff to the ZE, will I still achieve 170HP? I'm about to buy the engine but want to be sure it will work. if not, the closest engine i can find is a de with 122k miles and seems like a waste of time compared to a 50k fs with 170 N/A hp. Although it'd be a $500 difference between getting the junkyard engine vs the ze...
 
Not without the ECU.

When you talk about emissions what are you specifically including? Stock DE Header?
 
well yes swapping over the us spec manifold back..

forgot allll about the ecu. hmm. so what about if i swapped in an mp3 ecu?
 
03protolx said:
Ok so I don't mean to threadjack...but I had a question and answer.

im2bad: where are you getting the DE at? Japan? more than likely it's a ZE. I have been calling engine importers for the last week trying to find a good low mileage engine. everything JDM seems to be a ZE mis-advertised as an american spec DE.
Click to expand...

I've been looking at importers here in the US, there's a few in Clifton, NJ and other places. One place only had the FSZE, and the place I'm getting it has told me it only had the JDM FSDE. I'll be swapping it soon and if you want I can let you know how it goes.
 
tweety2300 said:
I think you're in a little over your head to be honest
Click to expand...

Nah, I just think a 170 hp N/A protege in the US would be cool without having to deal with a turbo. Just checking possibilities. If it's possible, i want to do it. if not, I'll just swap the higher mileage engine and sell the car.
 
I've called a couple importers in florida and one in sacremento and one in long beach. long beach for some reason never has them and sacremento has two, both 160k miles. all DE motors. the importer in florida says they have a DE, but sent me a picture of what appears to be a j-spec ze. (has the box above the intake and has the mazda engine cover).
 
I just got pics of the engine I'm supposed to get. The intake cam is marked FP39 and the exhaust is FSD7. So this configuration isn't in the FS Engine Specs page I found. the only engine with the FP39 cam is the 1.8. Is there another marking or a different way to know that the engine I'm getting is a 2.0 and not a 1.8?
 
Well, a lot more painless than I thought, because all the threads say the blocks are identical from the outside and without opening up the blocks it's hard to tell the FPDE from the FSDE. (uhm) All you gotta do is look at the serial numbers and you're set. I put up pics of each for future reference. You're welcome.

KGrHqFoEFJNVmNE2hBSVYwviWdQ60_57_zps04bea219.jpg


9ff5b01e-1497-4673-9f2d-dc39949bc550_zps2a1efdc4.jpg
 
im2bad4ya said:
if you want to be certain about the engine before you buy it, either you or the seller should open up the valve cover, take a look at the stamp on the intake cam, if it says FSH9, it's 98% an FSZE (I say 98% because there's always that off chance that someone put a FSZE intake came onto the FSDE, but how likely is that?)

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123713157-FS-Engine-Revision-Cam-Specs

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...rom-corksport&highlight=fs-ze intake camshaft
Click to expand...

Incorrect. If you read your thread you'd know this.

JDM FS have the same cams as the normal ZE (i.e. non MSF).

03protolx said:
well yes swapping over the us spec manifold back..

forgot allll about the ecu. hmm. so what about if i swapped in an mp3 ecu?
Click to expand...

Then yeah good bye engine and good bye 168hp. Need the ZE header or an aftermarket decent header.

03protolx said:
I've called a couple importers in florida and one in sacremento and one in long beach. long beach for some reason never has them and sacremento has two, both 160k miles. all DE motors. the importer in florida says they have a DE, but sent me a picture of what appears to be a j-spec ze. (has the box above the intake and has the mazda engine cover).
Click to expand...

The box isnt specific to ZEs. Some DEs came with the box as well.

im2bad4ya said:
Well, a lot more painless than I thought, because all the threads say the blocks are identical from the outside and without opening up the blocks it's hard to tell the FPDE from the FSDE. (uhm) All you gotta do is look at the serial numbers and you're set. I put up pics of each for future reference. You're welcome.

KGrHqFoEFJNVmNE2hBSVYwviWdQ60_57_zps04bea219.jpg


9ff5b01e-1497-4673-9f2d-dc39949bc550_zps2a1efdc4.jpg
Click to expand...

Thats not right either.

The FS block is taller by 9.5mm. The crank, rods and pistons are different in the FP then the FS to compensate for the block difference.

And not all the threads say this, I can think of at least 3-4 that say this.
 
Ice88 said:
Then yeah good bye engine and good bye 168hp. Need the ZE header or an aftermarket decent header.



The box isnt specific to ZEs. Some DEs came with the box as well.
Click to expand...

Thank you!. still looking into it...i may just say screw it and buy the ze and swap everything over. apparently with the ze cams you get a better power band...a few hp difference would be nice plus the 50k miles it has. it would be very interesting to have a N/A 170 hp fs but who am i kidding.

weird that I had a dream about owning a MSP with the ZE with a turbo. NOW i'm getting too ahead of myself lol
 
Even if you swap in the ze you won't have 170 hp and it will still be slow. Also you're probly going to have to run 91+ octane instead of 87. But in all seriousness it's not going to suddenly get fast over 20-30 hp, it will still get it's feelings hurt by a civic
 
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