New system for my MSP

[505zoom]

My deck finally took a crap 2 nights ago (just shy of 3 years, 35k miles), and I am going to get a new one thrown in at the dealer next week. My sub/amp stopped working awhile back too so I am hoping that I can get that replaced at the same time. So, after all that is done, I am going to take it all out and sell it so I can finally build up my system like I have wanted to.

I wanted to get some opinions on my plans and hopefully get some suggestions on a headunit. Here are the definite plans so far:

Xtant 3300, which is a 3 channel amp that has an output of 2 x 60 + 1 x 180 @ 4ohms (2 x 120 + 1 x 360 @ 2ohms).

2 pairs of MB Quart 4" coaxials, 1 pair of Quart 5.25" components, and 1 pair of Quart 6.5" components. All speakers are the older referenz comp series from about 1997 or so, and all of them are 4ohms. Running 2 speakers per channel in parallel will bring the impedance down to 2ohms which will mean 120W per channel for those... just about right for those speakers.

1 JL Audio 8W7 3ohm sub. At 3ohms, the mono channel on the amp will put out 270, which should be perfect for the 8W7.

Now the parts that I am still unsure on and could use some thoughts from you guys about...

Mid/tweet locations. On my DSM, I had the 6.5" mids and 1 pair of tweets in the rear factory locations... the 5.25" mids, the other pair of tweets, and 1 pair of the 4" coaxials in the front doors... and the last pair of 4" coaxials in the dash. It sounded great like that, but there is no way for me to do a setup like that in the Protege. I am thinking it might be best to put a tweet on every door towards the bottom, 5.25 mid in front doors, and 6.5 mid in the rear doors. That leaves nowhere for the 4" coaxials though. Thoughts?

Ported vs sealed. I have only heard the 8W7 in a ported application, but my old setup with 6 8W6's was sealed and it sounded great too. Any of you guys that have heard a 8W7 in both styles should throw in your .02 about which sounds better. In general, I tend to like a sealed box for a small sub.

The headunit. I could even just go ahead and leave the brand new stocker in and be happy, but on the other hand I might want to go ahead and switch to something else. Eclipse has always been my favorite, but I am not familiar with their newer stuff that has come out over the past 5 years or so. Any suggestions? Must play MP3, must have security and detatchable face, must have controllable non powered NF output for subs, no powered output at all is preffered.

Thanks guys... this will all hopefully come together over the next couple months.(rockon)

 

[CasopoliS]

subbin to follow the life of this car

 

[Poseur]

Umm, I'd just forget most of the speakers, juice up your 6's in the front and leave the rest alone. At least just try it. if you still think you need a pile of speakers thrown into it, by all means feel free, but All those somewhat decent speakers being setup like that makes the baby jesus cry.

As for HU's eclipse is still nice. However getting one with no internal amp is getting tricky, prettymuch everythign comes with an amp these days.

 

[505zoom]

Umm, I'd just forget most of the speakers, juice up your 6's in the front and leave the rest alone. At least just try it. if you still think you need a pile of speakers thrown into it, by all means feel free, but All those somewhat decent speakers being setup like that makes the baby jesus cry.

As for HU's eclipse is still nice. However getting one with no internal amp is getting tricky, prettymuch everythign comes with an amp these days.

Thanks for the reply.

I used to run all these speakers in the DSM and it all sounded really good... the amp seemed to run cleaner at 2ohms than it did when I just had the 2 pairs of components running at 4ohms. Plus, those 4" Quarts sound so good that I want to try and incorporate them somehow. Maybe I will try just the components first to see how it sounds and then add the 4's later on if need be.

The last Eclipse deck I had was a 5303R, and I would like to get something similar to that if possible. I am surprised to hear that there isn't a wide range of preamp out only decks.

 

[jsahyoun]

I remember my old MB quartz 5.25inch componenst, music sounds so crisp and clear. Definately some of the best components I have heard a side from the Q series. That sounds like it would be an awesome setup.

good luck-

 

[benimal]

Why not get a HU that has an amplifier defeat switch. There are many companies now that make those. The few HUs I've seen without an internal amp tend to be the more spendy high end models for any particular company (i.e. Kenwood, Clarion, Alpine, JVC). I'm not saying those brands are high end, but the models within any given product line were towards the high end.

Ben

My deck finally took a crap 2 nights ago (just shy of 3 years, 35k miles), and I am going to get a new one thrown in at the dealer next week. My sub/amp stopped working awhile back too so I am hoping that I can get that replaced at the same time. So, after all that is done, I am going to take it all out and sell it so I can finally build up my system like I have wanted to.

I wanted to get some opinions on my plans and hopefully get some suggestions on a headunit. Here are the definite plans so far:

Xtant 3300, which is a 3 channel amp that has an output of 2 x 60 + 1 x 180 @ 4ohms (2 x 120 + 1 x 360 @ 2ohms).

2 pairs of MB Quart 4" coaxials, 1 pair of Quart 5.25" components, and 1 pair of Quart 6.5" components. All speakers are the older referenz comp series from about 1997 or so, and all of them are 4ohms. Running 2 speakers per channel in parallel will bring the impedance down to 2ohms which will mean 120W per channel for those... just about right for those speakers.

1 JL Audio 8W7 3ohm sub. At 3ohms, the mono channel on the amp will put out 270, which should be perfect for the 8W7.

Now the parts that I am still unsure on and could use some thoughts from you guys about...

Mid/tweet locations. On my DSM, I had the 6.5" mids and 1 pair of tweets in the rear factory locations... the 5.25" mids, the other pair of tweets, and 1 pair of the 4" coaxials in the front doors... and the last pair of 4" coaxials in the dash. It sounded great like that, but there is no way for me to do a setup like that in the Protege. I am thinking it might be best to put a tweet on every door towards the bottom, 5.25 mid in front doors, and 6.5 mid in the rear doors. That leaves nowhere for the 4" coaxials though. Thoughts?

Ported vs sealed. I have only heard the 8W7 in a ported application, but my old setup with 6 8W6's was sealed and it sounded great too. Any of you guys that have heard a 8W7 in both styles should throw in your .02 about which sounds better. In general, I tend to like a sealed box for a small sub.

The headunit. I could even just go ahead and leave the brand new stocker in and be happy, but on the other hand I might want to go ahead and switch to something else. Eclipse has always been my favorite, but I am not familiar with their newer stuff that has come out over the past 5 years or so. Any suggestions? Must play MP3, must have security and detatchable face, must have controllable non powered NF output for subs, no powered output at all is preffered.

Thanks guys... this will all hopefully come together over the next couple months.(rockon)

 

[msp35]

Rich, why not put the comp in the front, replace rear door speakers, and install a solid
pr of 6x9's in the rear deck?

 

[505zoom]

Why not get a HU that has an amplifier defeat switch. There are many companies now that make those. The few HUs I've seen without an internal amp tend to be the more spendy high end models for any particular company (i.e. Kenwood, Clarion, Alpine, JVC). I'm not saying those brands are high end, but the models within any given product line were towards the high end.

Ben

I hear ya... the 5303R that I had back in the day was definitely one of the top end decks for Eclipse, so it doesn't really surprise me that it is still like that. I didn't think about the amp defeat switch, but the real idea behind having no powered output is that it frees up space for other internal components in the deck. I will be running everything off of the xtant, so I have no need for any powered output at all unless it is a center channel. Not really a necessity, just something that I would like to have if I am going to spend the money on a new HU.

Rich, why not put the comp in the front, replace rear door speakers, and install a solid
pr of 6x9's in the rear deck?

Not a bad idea, but I will most likely ditch the entire stock rear deck and mount the new sub enclosure in it's place. That means the 6x9's are pretty much out of the equation... and besides that, I have never been a big fan of that size. IMO, the 6.5" rounds that I will be using kill every coax 6x9 I have ever heard. (evil)

 

[Dexter]

Damnit, my car sucks all around in every corner, on every speaker. this is teh gay.

 

[RyanJayG]

Dude, Rich... dont install any rear speakers, its a waste of time. infact, I removed my 6x9's installed some tiny 3.5's and they are actually tunred off (automatically) when playing stereo music. when multi-channel DVDaudio discs or movies get put in they start playing.

what I'm saying is you dont need rear speakers at all, infact it hurts sound quality.

as for the speakers you do have, I'd just run the 6.5's and amp them properly. If I were you, I'd buy a JL 500/5, bi-amp the components with 100W to the 6.5, and 25W to the tweet, then run the 250W to the sub.

this is actually what I am going to do very soon, as I ordered a 300/4 for center/rear, and I already have the 500/5 installed (front rear, sub, using the focal crossovers.)

I promise, if you do this it will sound better than using all your speakers, and paying a million $$$ to have them integrated properly, where they would sound halfway decently. It would need a lot of fiberglass to say the least.

seriously though dude, bi-amp those speakers!

also, for a W7 I would go sealed, you are kindof wasting all that excursion in a ported box.

 

[chuyler1]

Oh boy.

Use the 3-channel amp and power one set of speakers (prolly the 6.5"s) and one subwoofer. That's it. You don't need all that other stuff.

I don't mean to insult your intellegence because I see the reasoning behind it...BUT powering front and rear speakers off the same amplifier channel is the stupidist thing I have ever heard...first off, you don't need rear speakers, and if you must have them you should at least be able to turn them down a little by fading the head unit to the front.

Also, if you haven't purchased the amp, I'd like to suggest the DLS A5 3-channel amp. (www.dlsamerica.com) It puts out 85x2 @ 40hms and the subwoofer channel puts out 300w @ 4ohms, 500w @ 2ohms, or 780w @ 1.33 ohms (3 4ohm subs in parallel). The sound quality is on-par with Xtant.

 

[505zoom]

Dude, Rich... dont install any rear speakers, its a waste of time. infact, I removed my 6x9's installed some tiny 3.5's and they are actually tunred off (automatically) when playing stereo music. when multi-channel DVDaudio discs or movies get put in they start playing.

what I'm saying is you dont need rear speakers at all, infact it hurts sound quality.

as for the speakers you do have, I'd just run the 6.5's and amp them properly. If I were you, I'd buy a JL 500/5, bi-amp the components with 100W to the 6.5, and 25W to the tweet, then run the 250W to the sub.

this is actually what I am going to do very soon, as I ordered a 300/4 for center/rear, and I already have the 500/5 installed (front rear, sub, using the focal crossovers.)

I promise, if you do this it will sound better than using all your speakers, and paying a million $$$ to have them integrated properly, where they would sound halfway decently. It would need a lot of fiberglass to say the least.

seriously though dude, bi-amp those speakers!

also, for a W7 I would go sealed, you are kindof wasting all that excursion in a ported box.

Interesting... I am going to call you tomorrow to talk about this some more man.

Oh boy.

Use the 3-channel amp and power one set of speakers (prolly the 6.5"s) and one subwoofer. That's it. You don't need all that other stuff.

I don't mean to insult your intellegence because I see the reasoning behind it...BUT powering front and rear speakers off the same amplifier channel is the stupidist thing I have ever heard...first off, you don't need rear speakers, and if you must have them you should at least be able to turn them down a little by fading the head unit to the front.

Also, if you haven't purchased the amp, I'd like to suggest the DLS A5 3-channel amp. (www.dlsamerica.com) It puts out 85x2 @ 40hms and the subwoofer channel puts out 300w @ 4ohms, 500w @ 2ohms, or 780w @ 1.33 ohms (3 4ohm subs in parallel). The sound quality is on-par with Xtant.

Hmmm... maybe I wasn't clear about the amp setup before. The 3300 has front (pair), rear (pair), and mono for the sub(s). IF I do run all 4 pairs of Quarts, it would be set up so 2 pairs are on the front output, and 2 pairs are on the rear output, and I would still be able to adjust the fader between the front and rear speakers. Not saying I am definitely going to still go that route because you guys have brought up some good points on why I shouldn't, but I wanted to clear that up because it sounds like you might not have understood what I was planning to do. Having zero adjustability between front and rear was never a plan of mine.

I am somewhat limited in my choices because I already have all of the MB Quarts and the Xtant, so I am definitely not going to bother getting a new amp. I have always been a huge fan of that amp and I don't have any plans to replace it. As far as only having a front channel and totally ditching the rear, I don't really see how that would sound better than having a pair of components in the front doors and a pair of components in the rear doors. It seems to me that there would almost be a nasty gap between the front mid/high and the rear bass. I won't be watching any movies at all in the car, so surround is not a concern of mine.

I am now kind of leaning towards just using the 2 pairs of components (1 mid and 1 tweet in each door), and the 8W7. It will be a lot easier to set up like that, and I will be able to retain all the factory mounting to keep it looking stock.

Thanks for the input guys... keep the comments coming.

 

[RyanJayG]

the easiest way to think about car audio (or any other stereo music) is that when you go to a concert you face the stage. why do you want music coming from behind you?

trust me on this, a properly amped, tuned, and installed set of front components is all you need.

because of the way it is installed in my car, you could turn up my rears all the way, turn down the fronts half way and STILL not hear the rear speakers for what they are. the front sound stage is essentially the single most important part in music reproduction. as for a "nasty gap" the 6.5" components should produce low enough frequencies to match well with where you should crossover the subwoofer. there is essentially no gap to bridge. the only better setup is to install a third larget woofer in the front to bring more low frequencies to the front of the car, allowing you to crossover the subwoofer even lower, reducing the directonally detectable frequencies all to your front, where it belongs. for the average person around 60-70 Hz and lower you cannot detect which direction it comes from. everything higher you can, so it needs to be up front. You can get away with crossing over the subwoofer at 80hz, and even 100Hz, but thats the highest I'd ever crossover a rear sub. but your 6.5 speakers should have no problem playing well down to 80Hz or so at least.

 

[505zoom]

the easiest way to think about car audio (or any other stereo music) is that when you go to a concert you face the stage. why do you want music coming from behind you?

trust me on this, a properly amped, tuned, and installed set of front components is all you need.

because of the way it is installed in my car, you could turn up my rears all the way, turn down the fronts half way and STILL not hear the rear speakers for what they are. the front sound stage is essentially the single most important part in music reproduction. as for a "nasty gap" the 6.5" components should produce low enough frequencies to match well with where you should crossover the subwoofer. there is essentially no gap to bridge. the only better setup is to install a third larget woofer in the front to bring more low frequencies to the front of the car, allowing you to crossover the subwoofer even lower, reducing the directonally detectable frequencies all to your front, where it belongs. for the average person around 60-70 Hz and lower you cannot detect which direction it comes from. everything higher you can, so it needs to be up front. You can get away with crossing over the subwoofer at 80hz, and even 100Hz, but thats the highest I'd ever crossover a rear sub. but your 6.5 speakers should have no problem playing well down to 80Hz or so at least.

Oh I totally understand the front stage... but that is why I would have the front and rear speakers seperate and adjustable from each other. It seems to me that I could adjust the rear components so they are not overshadowing the fronts, but still adding a little volume. And really... if I found that it sounded better to have no rear at all, I could just turn the fader all the way to the front and get the same result, no?

Oh and just to argue your statement about listening to a concert... The best one I ever saw was the Black Sabbath reunion concert in Phoenix for new years '99. Slayer, Soulfly, Pantera, and Megadeth all played first, and they all used the same setup with all the music coming from the stage. Then Sabbath came on, and they turned on about 100 extra speakers that were all out in the stands behind the main crowd. This made it sound AMAZING in there, so I can't really agree that you ALWAYS want all of the music coming from in front of you. If it is well balanced, I think it enhances the SQ to have at least SOME music coming from behind you. Maybe I am totally off there, but I am just going off of my personal experience from my last car.

 

[Poseur]

One thing as long as you're mentioning frequencies. make sure to leave a bit of a gap between sub/mids (eg highpassed mdis at 80, sub at 63, etc) both will slowly rolloff, meet in the middle and windup netting a flat responce.

505> please see the rear speaker discussion sticky.
AS far as wanting to get the most out of your amp. you verywell still might be able to. Simply bridge your prefious "front" channels to your left single front component, and then bridge the "rear" to the Right. This will hugely up your amp power, and do it clearly and efficiently. WIthout the cancellation, and horrible staging of having multiple sources scatteres throughout your car.

Of course this is an audiophile ideal, and SQ kinda setup, which may not be for everybody, but if you've got the goods, and the desire to do things right, you should atleast try it out setup right and see how it sounds. It's been beaten to death around here and I don't have it in me to play that old broken record at the moment.

 

[505zoom]

That sticky was a good read. I must admit that I have never heard a car that was setup with only fronts, so I can't form my own opinion on which is better. I will take your advice though for my initial setup just to try it, and use just the 6.5 components up front with the amp bridged to them. It doesn't fully make sense to me that I could get enough sound out of 1 sub, 2 mids, and 2 tweets... but I am by no means a pro when it comes to audio so I will bow down here and listen to you guys with more experience. If I end up not being happy with it, then I can always add the other pair of components back in later without much hassle.

Thanks again for the advice and comments everyone... it is much appreciated.

 

[RyanJayG]

also, the gap between sub and front sound sstage will vary with the available crossover slope that Xtant provides. I'm pretty sure that amp has jumpers inside of it to set the crossovers, but I'm not sure if the slope is adjustable also.

 

[505zoom]

I am pretty sure that the slope is adjustable.

 

[chuyler1]

Setting a low crossover point around 70-80Hz will make your ear think the music is coming from up front (even the bass). For this to work properly, you need to take care of any high-pitch rattles that come from the rear of the car. Your ear won't hear a gap between the front speakers playing highs and the sub behind you playing lows.

A funny story about rattles unrelated to cars...
I used to work in a movie theater as a projectionist. Our bigest theater had 4 18" subwoofers in ported cabinets behind the screen. During some action scenes they could produce enough bass to rattle every ceiling tile in the theater and even the poster cases outside the entrance doors. The funny part... Audio nuts would sometimes ask us how many subwoofers we installed in the ceiling. Why? because their ears were localizing the bass with the rattling tiles instead of the subwoofer cabinet which was sitting on the floor behind the screen.

 

[jrodhotrod]

Subscribes...

You have lots of good advice in here.

Eclipse head units are very nice and the latest Alpine stuff has been kind of dissapointing. Just want to follow what goes down.