jimmysuite
Member
- :
- 2003 Mazda Protege5
have people been posting dynos?...
Also did you ever start the "second" build?
Nope probably not ever going to happen either.
NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's
- Thread starter LordWorm
- Start date
Nope probably not ever going to happen either.
Hard reading all these ancient threads finding info. Is there anyone here left that has any N/A stuff left for sale? Or know where to get some?
I guess I am looking for the JDM ecu for a fs-ze motor along with the crank trigger.. As of now I have the JDM intake and exhaust cams from like 10 years ago, OBX header, OBD I harness, 10.4:1 pistons, ported and polished intake with VCTS delete. (and a tone of other stuff that's not important now).
I see some wiffs of information on a few people running the mp3 ecu on the FS-ZE motor with luck, but I can't believe that it makes any more power with the ecu not taking advantage of the parts. If someone actually has dyno proof that just with the mps ecu and higher compression along with cams makes more power than that's a root I would consider.
Or another forum where these guys went so I can know what to get. Otherwise I am done. I am stuck behind a RX7 and a BMW 325i, and racing this station wagon is getting boring. I will just save my money and buy a van deimon.
I guess I am looking for the JDM ecu for a fs-ze motor along with the crank trigger.. As of now I have the JDM intake and exhaust cams from like 10 years ago, OBX header, OBD I harness, 10.4:1 pistons, ported and polished intake with VCTS delete. (and a tone of other stuff that's not important now).
I see some wiffs of information on a few people running the mp3 ecu on the FS-ZE motor with luck, but I can't believe that it makes any more power with the ecu not taking advantage of the parts. If someone actually has dyno proof that just with the mps ecu and higher compression along with cams makes more power than that's a root I would consider.
Or another forum where these guys went so I can know what to get. Otherwise I am done. I am stuck behind a RX7 and a BMW 325i, and racing this station wagon is getting boring. I will just save my money and buy a van deimon.
AzteCypher
black ops modifications..
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- 2001 Mazda Protege LX
Contact Repthemazdas. I "think" he had an FS-ZE and he was selling parts.
honestly that NA 'station wagon' is never going to compete with the cars you mentioned...certainly not in a straight line. If it is supreme speed you want then you unfortunately have to go turbo... Even a pretty extreme 200hp FS is not going to be earth shatteringly fast.. It'll be quick, and awesome in its own way, but if it is outright performance you want then this isn't the way to do it (making 200hp+ with a turbo build would cost you less).
This thread really wont help you much with the JDM ecu question. To do the kinds of things that were talked about in here with the FS you are almost certainly in the realms of a stand alone - if for no other reason then to get the revs you need to pull it off.
It was fun while it lasted, but several of us have given up... life gets in the way of fun toys and silly back yard engineering projects...
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
An mp3 ecu would be the only stock offering that would mildly take advantage of higher compression...the stock ecu definitely won't, its ignition maps are a joke for an engine with such little dwell time...the mp3 ignition timing, on the other hand, will advance quite a bit with the right gas...and you need the ignition advance to make up for piston heads being 'higher' in the cylinders.
the mp3 ecu should work fine with the mild jdm cams and pistons, its just the sensors i'm not sure about.
There are two of some races this year where I had the fastest laps. It should not take too much to stay out in front. I have no kids, this is my life. I cant FI, or KL swap. If I do I am put in a class with GT1 cars. THEN I will never have a chance.
Ahh OK then I will proceed to install the 10.4:1 pistons. Would it be wise to run a J&S, or stick to running what 100 or E85? Remember this is a track car only so MPG or overall gas cost is not a problem.
What sensors. I have two full race seasons on the mp3 ecu with great results.
Attachments
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Ah ok, i missed what you said. I thought you were trying to swap a full FS-ZE in with an OBD-I harness, and trying to get it to work with the MP3 ecu...doing that would involve splicing sensors and stuff that i'm not familiar with, thats what i meant about the sensors...
if you are just building a DE to ZE specs, keeping obd-II and everything, everything will be fine.
as far as the J&S, it wouldn't be a bad idea...but probably would be over-kill. a bump from 9 flat to 10.4:1 compression isn't all that big (as long as you're staying NA)...and with keeping the same computer, you are effectively retarding the timing by a degree or two by having TDC slightly higher physically in the chambers...So, as long as you're on premium gas (race gas would be 100% completely unneeded on an MP3 ecu'd protege), you shouldn't have any problems with detonation.
Ideally you need control of your ignition. the mp3 ecu, though much better than a stock ecu, still runs pretty rich at WOT...so detonation will be safely kept in check at that compression imo...but you're power gains from higher compression are going to be slightly held back by the ignition change...so you won't get quite the power increase that you would if you could keep the 14-17 degrees of MP3 ignition advance...if that makes sense.
When i built my engine years ago, ignition advance was where i would see incredible gains after the compression was significantly increased (nearly 13:1)...the FS's rod ratio gives ridiculously fast dwell times, allowing it to handle some pretty radical advance. I increased my rod ratio to something like 1.53 iirc, but was still easily running around 10 degrees at low rpm (roughly the stock timing), to mid 20's degrees at 7400rpm+ WOT. I can't remember for sure what my street tune was (but i had over 34 degrees total advance at one point), or the Mp3's numbers...but i think it goes from about 12 degrees at low rpm to around 17 at redline. Better than the stock ecu's roughly 8 to 12, low to high respectively.
play with your plugs a little. the factory heat range of 5 should still be good, but it might be a good idea to keep a set of 6's with you with those HC pistons, just in case you get a little detonation at mid-range (at max VE, very high cylinder temps there). You could also try the ZFR511's or 6's, which are extended reach...slightly bumping your compression a little more, but in the other direction ignition wise (this will put the flame front lower in the chamber, possibly enough to make up your degree or 2 of ignition retardation)...figure on roughly a 10.6:1 CR with that setup, though i never measure how 'extended' they are...i'm fairly sure the mp3 ecu can handle that on premium gas with no trouble.
you're also on the right cams for this set up already. The cams have slightly more duration, and are pretty well matched for those pistons (oddly enough, they're all from the same engine haha)
if you are just building a DE to ZE specs, keeping obd-II and everything, everything will be fine.
as far as the J&S, it wouldn't be a bad idea...but probably would be over-kill. a bump from 9 flat to 10.4:1 compression isn't all that big (as long as you're staying NA)...and with keeping the same computer, you are effectively retarding the timing by a degree or two by having TDC slightly higher physically in the chambers...So, as long as you're on premium gas (race gas would be 100% completely unneeded on an MP3 ecu'd protege), you shouldn't have any problems with detonation.
Ideally you need control of your ignition. the mp3 ecu, though much better than a stock ecu, still runs pretty rich at WOT...so detonation will be safely kept in check at that compression imo...but you're power gains from higher compression are going to be slightly held back by the ignition change...so you won't get quite the power increase that you would if you could keep the 14-17 degrees of MP3 ignition advance...if that makes sense.
When i built my engine years ago, ignition advance was where i would see incredible gains after the compression was significantly increased (nearly 13:1)...the FS's rod ratio gives ridiculously fast dwell times, allowing it to handle some pretty radical advance. I increased my rod ratio to something like 1.53 iirc, but was still easily running around 10 degrees at low rpm (roughly the stock timing), to mid 20's degrees at 7400rpm+ WOT. I can't remember for sure what my street tune was (but i had over 34 degrees total advance at one point), or the Mp3's numbers...but i think it goes from about 12 degrees at low rpm to around 17 at redline. Better than the stock ecu's roughly 8 to 12, low to high respectively.
play with your plugs a little. the factory heat range of 5 should still be good, but it might be a good idea to keep a set of 6's with you with those HC pistons, just in case you get a little detonation at mid-range (at max VE, very high cylinder temps there). You could also try the ZFR511's or 6's, which are extended reach...slightly bumping your compression a little more, but in the other direction ignition wise (this will put the flame front lower in the chamber, possibly enough to make up your degree or 2 of ignition retardation)...figure on roughly a 10.6:1 CR with that setup, though i never measure how 'extended' they are...i'm fairly sure the mp3 ecu can handle that on premium gas with no trouble.
you're also on the right cams for this set up already. The cams have slightly more duration, and are pretty well matched for those pistons (oddly enough, they're all from the same engine haha)
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Damn dude... I am so glad I have spent a ton of time on here reading all the N/A threads for the past few weeks. Because that all makes sense. (bowdown) I will get the deeper spark plugs to grab back some timing from the taller pistons. And so with the two different heat ranges. Thank you so much!!!!! Seriously that is some great info! I can't believe this info is so hard to come by. It's nice to see a P5 so high up on the small prod list! I just want to be #1
But again with more questions...... The HC pistons are .050 over. In this motor do I need to get the motor board over to accommodate? Also with both (the stock and HC) pistons fully assembled with pins and rings, and (lets say) they weigh the same. Will I still have to get the bottom balanced?
Also should I make a "build thread"?
But again with more questions...... The HC pistons are .050 over. In this motor do I need to get the motor board over to accommodate? Also with both (the stock and HC) pistons fully assembled with pins and rings, and (lets say) they weigh the same. Will I still have to get the bottom balanced?
Also should I make a "build thread"?
Pre-requisite of a build thread is for everyone to post and post and post before anything is actually done.
OK I will start a build thread the moment I start tearing the motor down. However, do I need to sent the bottom end out????
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/88yveFk1Fso" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
hey no problem, bud...sadly, even with lots of VB updates, this place has always struggled with a searching. So many discussions pop up in threads with a completely different title; i guess its inevitable...but i do wish there was a way to better archive some of this stuff, as it is around...just VERY deep haha.
for a .050, yes, you should have the block bored to accommodate...I think there were rings at one point for a .025" OS piston, but .050 is big enough...you'd never want compression rings that small...and it would take so long to hone the cylinder, you'd basically be boring it anyway...just without the precision.
you'll get a nice displacement bump from that too, and if you can tear down and prep yourself...a lot of shops will only charge $20 to $30 a cylinder for a straight up 'service bore' of that size (as in, nothing exotic, the factory limit of the FS block is .050)...
as far as balancing...ideally yes, it should be re-balanced...Of course if money isn't the issue, definitely have it done as it will not hurt anything...but considering you seem to have no plans of raising the rev limit...i'm willing to be it would be something you won't ever notice...For regular rev-band...a proper balance procedure will for the most part just add service life, but the harmonics aren't something you as the driver will really notice...and unless you're going to go all out with a oil pump blueprinting, DoC b bypass, etc...the engine's life will remain on the low side even with a full balance...if you're leaving the crank alone, and aren't afraid of tearing the engine down again in a few years to replace some things, honestly i'd just skip it...but if you want to race hard year after year, still have a daily driver, and pull another 175,000 miles on that bottom end...probably a good idea to invest now in the assembly balancing.
Now, i'm talking about a full rotating assembly balance...NOT weight matching of the pistons. That definitely should be checked by a good shop, or at the very least...yourself with a very accurate scale. If those pistons are even slightly different (if they're new parts they shouldn't be), they'll need to be machined slightly, same with the rods...very cheap to have done, but a necessity...i would check those weights, and if there are any questions marks...just bite the bullet and take the crank in with them...if everything checks out, and you're sure the crank is in great shape...then its your call overall. You're dealing with factory service parts...the tolerances of the parts you are using are designed to work together, as long as nothing is damaged...meaning, that crank is supposed to be 'ok' for those HC pistons in a factory balance sense...even OS...but mazda's 'ok' isn't racing 'ok'...so it will work, its just a question of for how long.
oh and by the way, yeah definitely check out the extended plugs. I've been on a Mp3 ecu and extended plugs for just a couple tanks now...but still stock DE compression...I don't normally say stuff like this, but i was AMAZED at how much better it is than the stock ecu...its not a power thing, its just how easily the engine responds to very little throttle input, and its SO much smoother than it was...So if you're on an Mp3 ecu, try it out. I got mine for like $10 at Advanced. You won't notice it like i did, as you've already had the mp3 computer...but it tried both plug types and the extended reach NGK's seemed to smooth it out even more.
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jimmysuite
Member
- :
- 2003 Mazda Protege5
I looks like this thread is dead but I wanted to let everyone know my P5 is for sale. Might be willing to part it out if there is enough interest. Check out my thread in cars for sale...
phunky.buddha
Booga Booga?
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- DFW TX
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- No mo MZ5 want MX5
I know you guys will call foul on not showing all the documentation in the "rules" from the first post more than 5 years ago, but here's the thread showing the dyno plot of the Fuji Racing Miata from a few years ago. They made 184whp all motor on the 1.8L Miata block:
http://www.timeattackforums.com/for...ata-naturally-aspirated-184-whp-pump-gas.html
This is the video that was shot at 171whp, but there isn't one from 184whp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1GrPgISOL4&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1
And just for kicks, balancing the ITBs by hand like a boss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22SMxT0UHqk&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1
Source: I work with Thomas / Miatamoto, the driver of the Fuji Miata from a few years back. We eat a lot of pho together, so he HAS to be credible.
http://www.timeattackforums.com/for...ata-naturally-aspirated-184-whp-pump-gas.html
This is the video that was shot at 171whp, but there isn't one from 184whp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1GrPgISOL4&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1
And just for kicks, balancing the ITBs by hand like a boss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22SMxT0UHqk&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1
Source: I work with Thomas / Miatamoto, the driver of the Fuji Miata from a few years back. We eat a lot of pho together, so he HAS to be credible.
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