Debunking Tuning Myths

[MSP 2 K20]

Here is a video to prove why air fuel control alone doesn't really make power compared to ignition advance.

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Basically if you have an AFC you won't be generating much power due to the lack of full ignition control for timing advance or retard.
The AFC will only smooth out the boggyness from the rich AFR.

 

[MSP 2 K20]

Standalones and automatically failing inspections.

Most states with emissions testing require a test that hooks up a cable to the OBD2 diagnostic port. You may wonder what they are testing? The following is what they do.

OBD II TEST
An official OBD II emissions test consists of three parts:

1. An inspector checks to see if the MIL light comes on when the key is turned on. If the light does not come on, the vehicle fails the bulb check.

2. A scanner is plugged into the diagnostic link connector (DLC), and the system is checked for monitor readiness. If more than the allowed number of monitors are not ready, the vehicle is rejected and asked to come back later after it has been driven sufficiently to set the readiness flags. The scanner also checks the status of the MIL light (is it on or off?), and downloads any fault codes that may be present.

If the MIL light is on and there are any OBD II codes present, the vehicle fails the test and must be repaired. The vehicle also fails if the DLC is missing, has been tampered with or fails to provide any data.

3. As a final system check, the scanner is used to command the MIL lamp on to verify it is taking commands from the onboard computer.

Ok so why do standalones make you fail this test?

1. Your MIL light is no longer functional.
2. Your factory ECU is already disabled and won't have any sort of way to send the readiness test results through the DLC.
3. OBD2 is essentially disabled.

 

[Ricktalife]

Here is a video to prove why air fuel control alone doesn't really make power compared to ignition advance.

Basically if you have an AFC you won't be generating much power due to the lack of full ignition control for timing advance or retard.
The AFC will only smooth out the boggyness from the rich AFR.

I think anybody running the SS AFC already figured that out...but thanks. It's kind of like exhaust, that it obviously doesn't create power, just frees it up.

 

[Thefriar]

yes sir! The a/f ratio tuning is just for the longevity of the motor mainly and small driveablitity issues stuttering or bogging or poor idle ect. So you dont either blow it up by running lean all the time or foul plugs constantly,. The timing, compression, cyl design, use of water injection, fuel octane rating, and various other things really make up the abitlity to add more boost safely and it is more boost sir that will really make you more power!!! (as long as your fuel delivery system can keep up in sheer volume)

 

[XoX1de]

this is bulls***... AFR have a great impact on power as flamefront speed is NOT the same in 14AFR and 10 AFR... WHen you lean out a uber rich 11.2 AFR to 12.5, its pretty similar that you advanced the spark advance timing a little bit cuz flamefront travel faster.

I dyno tuned a 13B REW and a RB25det to lean out their uber rich stock bad tune and gained big power... without touching timing.

stop misinforming other people, follow the right tuning procedure by tuning AFR first then the spark advance.

 

[stevew145]

The reason that engine didn't make any power from just the a/f tuning is probably because it has a good tune from the factory, and is n/a. Our cars have a terrible tune from the factory, and runs pretty rich. Leaning it out will give you about 5 hp on the n/a protege (dyno proof somewhere in the dyno forum), and a good tune without touching timing will certainly give you more power on a msp vs stock tune.

 

[AusOrion]

this is bulls***... AFR have a great impact on power as flamefront speed is NOT the same in 14AFR and 10 AFR... WHen you lean out a uber rich 11.2 AFR to 12.5, its pretty similar that you advanced the spark advance timing a little bit cuz flamefront travel faster.

I dyno tuned a 13B REW and a RB25det to lean out their uber rich stock bad tune and gained big power... without touching timing.

stop misinforming other people, follow the right tuning procedure by tuning AFR first then the spark advance.

I don't think that anyone is saying that power cannot be gained from tuning the AFR's. Certainly there is enough evidence out there to say that these cars can benefit from adjusting the AFR's because the stock tune generally runs rich in both n/a and turbo formats.

I think that the point being made is that even more power can be unlocked by properly/safely advancing the timing. And I believe your last point is valid - dial in AFR's and then adjust timing. Both of these factors play an important role in power production but it seems that benefits from correct timing are sometimes forgotten.

 

[MSP 2 K20]

this is bulls***... AFR have a great impact on power as flamefront speed is NOT the same in 14AFR and 10 AFR... WHen you lean out a uber rich 11.2 AFR to 12.5, its pretty similar that you advanced the spark advance timing a little bit cuz flamefront travel faster.

I dyno tuned a 13B REW and a RB25det to lean out their uber rich stock bad tune and gained big power... without touching timing.

stop misinforming other people, follow the right tuning procedure by tuning AFR first then the spark advance.

Learn the subject fully before you spew s*** out of your mouth.
Most of all learn to read before you misinterpret words out of context.

The original post says fuel tuning alone doesn't make power, you need ignition control advance in addition to extract anything over what a proper fuel tune gives you. If you start with a base tune with AFR is DRASTICALLY off, of course it will produce some power gains. When you already have a good fuel map, adjusting the fuel will get at most 1-2 hp difference at cost of higher EGT and reliability. A knowledgeable tuner knows not to err on the leaner side of AFR to extract power.

Again, you illustrate your ignorance when you think pulling back injector pulsewidth time is the same as advancing the spark event in reference to BTDC. Fuel control is no where the same as ignition advance. If ignition advance wasn't important to power production all timing tables would be set to 10 degrees fixed. We also wouldn't need higher octane gas.

I tuned a Lamborghini Gallardo and gained 500 hp too.
Bragging about your claimed work without proof doesn't get you any leverage in convincing your argument, especially when you are wrong to start with.

So take heed of your words. Your are nowhere near knowledgeable on the subject. Keep building your own build practices to yourself, I'd hate to see people on here listen to your half assed build practices and screw up their own car.

 

[Amdeus]

j/w what brung about this thread?

 

[Focus]

 

[XoX1de]

Learn the subject fully before you spew s*** out of your mouth.
Most of all learn to read before you misinterpret words out of context.

The original post says fuel tuning alone doesn't make power, you need ignition control advance in addition to extract anything over what a proper fuel tune gives you. If you start with a base tune with AFR is DRASTICALLY off, of course it will produce some power gains. When you already have a good fuel map, adjusting the fuel will get at most 1-2 hp difference at cost of higher EGT and reliability. A knowledgeable tuner knows not to err on the leaner side of AFR to extract power.

Again, you illustrate your ignorance when you think pulling back injector pulsewidth time is the same as advancing the spark event in reference to BTDC. Fuel control is no where the same as ignition advance. If ignition advance wasn't important to power production all timing tables would be set to 10 degrees fixed. We also wouldn't need higher octane gas.

I tuned a Lamborghini Gallardo and gained 500 hp too.
Bragging about your claimed work without proof doesn't get you any leverage in convincing your argument, especially when you are wrong to start with.

So take heed of your words. Your are nowhere near knowledgeable on the subject. Keep building your own build practices to yourself, I'd hate to see people on here listen to your half assed build practices and screw up their own car.

I dont feel to arguing if you say the flamefront speed is faster at 10afr than 12.5 afr. physic counts.

 

[MSP 2 K20]

here retard, a book you need to read.

 

[Hulagirl]

ALoha, My mechanic just installed a new 5 speed tranny in my 2000 Protege (144,000 miles) which was running otherwise. He also installed a new intake and now the vehicle runs poorly. Idles high in neutral...bogs down or lags...seems like its choking. Lower RPMs are the worst but in general its just not the same car. He did a tuneup...cleaned the fuel injectors ( cost me about 160 for both) and its STILL running crappy. Any ideas...I did ask him to see if the cat was plugged..thats not it apparently.

So for anyone who considered sending me some ideas...turns out that the electronic sensor (sits on the intake) was not hooked up properly...so 2 weeks and several hours of trouble shooting for other reasons...its now running like a dream.
Still getting the hang of this forum...I hope this dialogue is on the appropriate thread...mahalo