Bush planned Iraq attack before 9/11 _

[saided18]

I don't think they were happy when we bombed a Tylenol factory filled with innocents, which was "suspected" to be a factory manufactuering weapons.

No weapons or scrap weapons were found, just alot of dead guys who went to work that day.

see there again is the know it all american that seems to know how everyone in the world feels! go ask an Kosovar if he/she was happy that the USA freed them. the will tell you the USA is the greatest country on earth. And this i know for a fact!!

 

[saided18]

There wasn't an invasion of a country because of a blowjob. And no, I didn't like Clinton either- lying, or being stupid enough to get caught lying should not happen if you are in office.

he didn't? what are USA troops doing in Kosova?. he didn't like to risk his public opinion by sending in tropps so he just bombed countries to hell!!!! Kosova, Iraq, Sudan Somalia... list goes on

 

[saided18]

Once again, this war was started because of WMD's. It has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. There are quite a few oppresive dictators around the globe with horrendous human rights violations, wrongful imprisonments, false elections. Why Saddam first?

b/c Saddam posed the biggest thread. if Saddam ever was able to sell his oil on the free market he would have all the money he needed to buy WMDs. Also lets not forget that Saddam had the 6 largest armed forces in the world at the time of the gulf war. And it was b/c the US pressure on Saddam that he was never able to rebuild his army!! IF we were not on Saddam's case after the gulf war he would have rebuild his army and did something even more stupid!

 

[70]

I read the article, did you?

First, if your could provide proof that Saddam had reinstated his WMD program, or if I could see the evidence that the led us to war, I might change my mind. If you notice, the shells were damaged and buried for 10 years or more. Does this really look like a smoking gun? I am not missing your point. We told the world that we had irrefutable(sp?) evidence that Iraq has WMD's- We also made a statement that was later revoked that Iraq was pursuing nuclear capabilities. Am I against this war? YES! Will I continue to be against this war? I don't know. At the current lack of information or evidence, probably. So far we have lost what? 459 of our soldiers. Another 21 have commited suicide. Morale is low because we are not wanted there and were not wanted there. This argument cannot be changed to say that we went to liberate the iraqi people, that was not our stated intention from the get-go. That is why I am so against what is happening.

Yes, I read the article.

You keep blowing everytihng I say out of proportion...

I never said the twelves shells were the "smoking gun." And you still refuse to acknowledge the chemical weapons that were marked for destruction but weren't!

You have ignored that point four times now. And you ahve ingnored the point of burying the weapons. Why?

Because you are arfraid to admit that it is a strong possiblity.

Morale is low because people who enlisted, enlisted for the wrong reasons. Five or six people crying about being there doesn't mean ALL military members are down about being there. You continually down play the good and exagerate the bad.

 

[shinzen]

Yes, I read the article.

You keep blowing everytihng I say out of proportion...

I never said the twelves shells were the "smoking gun." And you still refuse to acknowledge the chemical weapons that were marked for destruction but weren't!

You have ignored that point four times now. And you ahve ingnored the point of burying the weapons. Why?

Because you are arfraid to admit that it is a strong possiblity.

Morale is low because people who enlisted, enlisted for the wrong reasons. Five or six people crying about being there doesn't mean ALL military members are down about being there. You continually down play the good and exagerate the bad.

Did I deny that those weapons were found? No. Were they marked for destruction? I would assume so. Were they buried in the desert? Sure. Is this proof that he was trying to re-institute his WMD programs? Pretty obviously not, they were 10 years old. I am not afraid to admit any possibility, but it sure seems like you are being pretty one track minded, unable to admit that there is a possibility that we went in with bogus information fed to the american public. Colin Powell was supposed to provide "irrefutable evidence" That Iraq has and continues to pursue WMD's. This "evidence" Didn't rally the world, and lo and behold, we still, after this long, don't have anything but 36 warheads from the Iran-Iraq war that were not identified beyond the initial field tests as being a blister agent. As is mentioned in the article, the initial tests always err, rightfully so, on the side of protecting the soldiers. Where is the follow up?

34% of troops is not 5 or 6 people
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2003/10/16/227831-ap.html

I am not trying to portray everything in the worst possible light, but it is pretty hard to see why, as I mentioned before, that some people are so rabildly behind bush with these actions. It's almost like whatever this man does is justified, regardless of consequences.
Perhaps you didn't read the quotes I put out earlier regarding WMD's in another thread, so here is a link to the thread.
http://msprotege.com/vbb230/showthread.php?threadid=44530&highlight=iraq+quotes

 

[shinzen]

he didn't? what are USA troops doing in Kosova?. he didn't like to risk his public opinion by sending in tropps so he just bombed countries to hell!!!! Kosova, Iraq, Sudan Somalia... list goes on

Didn't I already say- how was the blowjob responsible for leading us to war? Did we lose 450+ soldiers? Was the stated reason for going to war a false premise? Gimme a break

 

[shinzen]

b/c Saddam posed the biggest thread. if Saddam ever was able to sell his oil on the free market he would have all the money he needed to buy WMDs. Also lets not forget that Saddam had the 6 largest armed forces in the world at the time of the gulf war. And it was b/c the US pressure on Saddam that he was never able to rebuild his army!! IF we were not on Saddam's case after the gulf war he would have rebuild his army and did something even more stupid!

The biggest threat? Are you joking? How was Iraq going to attack on U.S. soil? And yes, we had political and economic sanctions that prevented him from rebuilding... Amazing that he wasn't able to muster the 6th largest again in this war since apparently he was such a threat. Or that he couldn't just start dropping nuclear bombs on anyone who opposed him, wow, I feel so much safer now that we have further pissed off extremist groups who already didn't want us in the middle east.

 

[saided18]

Didn't I already say- how was the blowjob responsible for leading us to war? Did we lose 450+ soldiers? Was the stated reason for going to war a false premise? Gimme a break

LOL but you missed it. Some people, not me, believe he started the war in Iraq and Kosova to divert attetion from the Monica problems he had in the US.

And yes we didn't lose soldiers in those two wars but why don't you see how many civilians were killed during the bombing. But wait it's not americans dieing so we don't care! screw the the civilians as long as the we don't lose troops. great mentality. that why people hate the US b/c we only care for ourselves and screw everyone else.


and for out information thousands of Kosovar cavilians were killed by the Serbs during the bombing b/c they wanted to kill as many as possible before a peace treaty was signed. and most of the people killed were men ages 12-50. but americans didn't die so who cares.

 

[saided18]

The biggest threat? Are you joking? How was Iraq going to attack on U.S. soil? And yes, we had political and economic sanctions that prevented him from rebuilding... Amazing that he wasn't able to muster the 6th largest again in this war since apparently he was such a threat. Or that he couldn't just start dropping nuclear bombs on anyone who opposed him, wow, I feel so much safer now that we have further pissed off extremist groups who already didn't want us in the middle east.

like i said he did pose a thread b/c if he ever was able to sell his oil on the open market he would make enough money to buy WMD and FRANCE was pushing HARD to lift the SANCTIONS!! And he could hit us on our soil. Osama did it. why can't Saddam do it. or why can't saddam just help out people like Osama.

And thank god you are not a law enforment officer b/c if all the cops were like you we would still have people like Guadi running around plaing Gangster. Oh man we better not arrest Guadi b/c then we will piss off the whole mob and they will come after me.

Some times you have to be tough. And it's thanks to a man names Guliani that NYC is rid of people like Guadi. He stood up and was fearless even though he was under death threats. he new what he had to do and he did it. now NYC is a much safer place. In the same way i see Bush seeing what he had to do and doing it. and hopefully we look back at Bush and admire him like we addmire Guliani for his work.

only time will tell.

 

[shinzen]

like i said he did pose a thread b/c if he ever was able to sell his oil on the open market he would make enough money to buy WMD and FRANCE was pushing HARD to lift the SANCTIONS!! And he could hit us on our soil. Osama did it. why can't Saddam do it. or why can't saddam just help out people like Osama.

And thank god you are not a law enforment officer b/c if all the cops were like you we would still have people like Guadi running around plaing Gangster. Oh man we better not arrest Guadi b/c then we will piss off the whole mob and they will come after me.

Some times you have to be tough. And it's thanks to a man names Guliani that NYC is rid of people like Guadi. He stood up and was fearless even though he was under death threats. he new what he had to do and he did it. now NYC is a much safer place. In the same way i see Bush seeing what he had to do and doing it. and hopefully we look back at Bush and admire him like we addmire Guliani for his work.

only time will tell.

First- you stated he was the biggest threat, not a threat. We have a lot of threats, osama has proven he is a bigger one to the U.S. than Saddam is.
And thank you for leading nicely into my next point. When did it become our responsibility for being the worlds police force? It hasn't. A lot of the resenment and problems that we have worldwide is due to our current and past interventionist policies. We gave Iraq weapons, money, and training, specifically for the Iran-Iraq war.
As a law enforcement officer, I agree you have to be tough. Decisions must be made in the line of duty that not everyone will agree with. Comparing the two however is not relevant. Last time I checked, we as Americans do not rule the world, nor does the rest of the world live by our laws. So I guess this is what you are looking to accomplish here? Total domination and subjegation of the world to our rules and ways of life? Get real.

 

[shinzen]

LOL but you missed it. Some people, not me, believe he started the war in Iraq and Kosova to divert attetion from the Monica problems he had in the US.

And yes we didn't lose soldiers in those two wars but why don't you see how many civilians were killed during the bombing. But wait it's not americans dieing so we don't care! screw the the civilians as long as the we don't lose troops. great mentality. that why people hate the US b/c we only care for ourselves and screw everyone else.


and for out information thousands of Kosovar cavilians were killed by the Serbs during the bombing b/c they wanted to kill as many as possible before a peace treaty was signed. and most of the people killed were men ages 12-50. but americans didn't die so who cares.

Actually I would support actions leading to dealing with our problems before anything else. Does it matter what demographic died? Men, women, children, it is all a tragedy that people have to die for stupid racial intolerance and geography.

So are you justifying what we did in Kosovo or not, it would seem from prior statements that you thought it was great, just like this war- people were rejoicing that we were there to liberate them! Or don't I understand your post again(chair)

 

[saided18]

So are you justifying what we did in Kosovo or not, it would seem from prior statements that you thought it was great, just like this war- people were rejoicing that we were there to liberate them! Or don't I understand your post again

i was for the liberation of Kosovo and Iraq. but i just making points. I am making a point that alot of people supported Clinton when he bombed Kosova and Iraq but they don't support Bush now. i don't undertand them. Like you say Saddam is not a threat to the USA well Molasivic (leader of serbia) possed NO threat to the USA in any shape or form but they was widespread support for Clinton.

But now when Bush is doing the bombing it's not ok. he is a war monger.

The point i am trying to make is that every one should STFU b/c they don't agree with the war on Iraq b/c Bush is the President. I bet you is Clinton was the President all the people againts the war now would be for it!!!!!!

and that bulls*** and being twofaced. just come out and say i don't like Bush and threrefore i do not and will never agree with anything he does.

(pow)

 

[70]

First- you stated he was the biggest threat, not a threat. We have a lot of threats, osama has proven he is a bigger one to the U.S. than Saddam is.
And thank you for leading nicely into my next point. When did it become our responsibility for being the worlds police force? It hasn't. A lot of the resenment and problems that we have worldwide is due to our current and past interventionist policies. We gave Iraq weapons, money, and training, specifically for the Iran-Iraq war.
As a law enforcement officer, I agree you have to be tough. Decisions must be made in the line of duty that not everyone will agree with. Comparing the two however is not relevant. Last time I checked, we as Americans do not rule the world, nor does the rest of the world live by our laws. So I guess this is what you are looking to accomplish here? Total domination and subjegation of the world to our rules and ways of life? Get real.

Osama was not as big of an issue when the war in Iraq statred. Osama was essentially taking care (not caught) and so Saddam posed the larger threat.

What do you propose we do, if we don't police the world? The US economy has a direct relationship with the world economy. It is in our best interest to remove popel like Saddam to help the world economy, which in turn helps our economy.

Isolationism has been proven not to work twice. World War I and World War II, the US attempted to remain nuetral, and isolate itself from the problems. The economy began to suffer. Granted not as much becuase the world economy didn't play as big a realtionship in the US economy.

But, it took direct aggresion on the US to pull us in. Being reactive put us behind the eight ball, twice. We had to work hard to get up to par with the force we were fighting, and then to advance.

It makes sense to me to proactive, identify the issues and take care of them before they get out of hand. Which is what was happening with Saddam.

France and Germany wanted to lift the economci sanctions (that were not working anyway) because they wanted the money Iraq owed them for weapons and tehcnology that they sold them between the Gulf War and Iraqi Freedom.

They didn't support the US because they felt they would be less likely to get their money once we found out what they had sold Iraq.

Of course, now you are going to want to see news stories saying what weapons and technology France and Germany sold Iraq. And what Russian technology Iraq had. Unfortunately, I don't know of any stories. Some things you see when you are there. Some of those things the news fails to report because it's not "important." Just like the chemical weapons tagged for destruction but weren't.

Those obviously don't pose any kind of threat what so ever, even though they are readily available to be used...

 

[goldstar]

i was for the liberation of Kosovo and Iraq. but i just making points. I am making a point that alot of people supported Clinton when he bombed Kosova and Iraq but they don't support Bush now. i don't undertand them. Like you say Saddam is not a threat to the USA well Molasivic (leader of serbia) possed NO threat to the USA in any shape or form but they was widespread support for Clinton.

But now when Bush is doing the bombing it's not ok. he is a war monger.

The point i am trying to make is that every one should STFU b/c they don't agree with the war on Iraq b/c Bush is the President. I bet you is Clinton was the President all the people againts the war now would be for it!!!!!!

and that bulls*** and being twofaced. just come out and say i don't like Bush and threrefore i do not and will never agree with anything he does.

(pow)

I think you hit the nail on the head. Most of the opposition to the war comes from people who hate Bush and can't stand the fact that the conservative Republicans are in control. If Clinton was still President, the current whining liberals would be fawning all over his undoubtedly weak, ineffectual response to the terrorist threat that we face. Clinton would never commit our troops to war because the polls would show that this might make him unpopular with the American public and ruin his sought after 'legacy'. After all, why would a man whose legacy is already defined by such characteristics as liar, hypocrite, adulterer, perpetrator of criminal acts (including possibly rape) and impeachment want to do anything that might possibly add to his list of stellar accomplishments?

Of course it was right and necessary to invade Afghanistan because it had been taken over by the Taliban and Al Qaeda who were our sworn enemies and had already slaughtered thousands of our innocent citizens on 9/11. It was just as morally right and necessary to invade Iraq because we believed they had WMD which they might possibly use against us OR fall into the hands of the sociopathic Al Qaeda terrorists who would use them against us as they had already proved. Furthermore, after the fall of Afghanistan, Al Qaeda might have attempted to move into Iraq to use that country as a new platform to stage attacks against us.

I believe that Bush, his cabinet, many of our senators and Representatives, Tony Blair and at least some others in the British government truly believed and were convinced that Iraq did have WMD. Recall that Clinton himself and that poor excuse for a secretary of State, Madeleine Allbright both stated that Saddam did have WMD. Of course if no WMD had been found during Clinton's watch that would simply have been an unintentional error. Under Bush's watch, it's a deliberate lie designed to dupe the American people. After all, why would anyone think that Clinton would lie.

So Iraq has been liberated and no WMD have been found. Of course we have found mass graves, torture rooms, rape rooms and many stories and instances of the human degradation and misery that Saddam and his minions had inflicted on his country. Does anyone really not believe that the people of Iraq are truly grateful for our liberation of their country? Does anyone really not believe that the Iraqi people are much better off now than under Saddam? Does anyone really not believe that we are safer now because we have denied the terrorists a potential base from which to attack us. And finally, we have the chance to help create a new Iraq which will become for us another partner against terrorism along with Israel in one of the most dangerous places in the world for America.

America has every right to defend itself, unilaterally if necessary, to keep our citizens safe from attack. We are dealing with a group of crazed sociopaths who are willing to destroy themselves in order to destroy us. Since they are the attackers, we have the right to launch pre-emptive strikes aginst anyone or any country in order to insure our own safety. I have a son, whom I love very much, and I want him to grow up in a world where he will not be subject to potentially lethal attacks by madmen. For these reasons, I support Bush completely and believe he is telling us the truth about the need for strong military action. I also thank our military for everything they are doing to strengthen our country and to help create a better world.

02 DX Millenium Red

 

[shinzen]

Look, no matter what facts are presented, I will not be able to change your mind, you will always come back with hypothetical situations, or evidence that is pretty obviously not a smoking gun. This war was started on the basis of WMD's, and if you can't see how the american people and the world were mislead, there is nothing more to say. When/If there becomes a smoking gun, I will apologize. Until then, unless you can come up with facts, news, or documentation there is really no point in continuing this disagreement- At this point I respectfully agree to disagree-

 

[pingdum]

First, I say read a few things other than web sights such as Alan Colmes' book or Paul O'Neals' book and try to get a better point of veiw than watching Fox News.

like i said he did pose a thread

I had no idea Saddam was a member of this board

And thank god you are not a law enforment officer b/c if all the cops were like you we would still have people like Guadi running around plaing Gangster. Oh man we better not arrest Guadi b/c then we will piss off the whole mob and they will come after me.

Some times you have to be tough. And it's thanks to a man names Guliani that NYC is rid of people like Guadi. He stood up and was fearless even though he was under death threats.

Yea, thank god there's no mob in New York any more

he new what he had to do and he did it. now NYC is a much safer place.

Except now in New York you have to be scared of getting a ticket for sitting on a milk crate outside of your store.

In the same way i see Bush seeing what he had to do and doing it. and hopefully we look back at Bush and admire him like we addmire Guliani for his work.only time will tell.

Have you ever been to New York? I for one prefer the way it was and not the Police state it has become.

Those of you who deride the Liberals for backing whatever Clinton did need to look inside yourselves for doing the same thing with Bush. Whether you belive it or not, many people of a progressive nature we're not behind the action in Kosovo and are not behind the action in Iraq. Especially since it diverted attention from the hunt for Osama, which should still be our #1 priority. Members of the Bush administration have already admitted the link between Al-Qaida and Iraq was not there and that the intellegence about WMDs was spotty at best. Everyone on both sides needs to admit that Dems and Reps, they're both a bunch of power-hungry liars that will say anything they want to get power and riches. They don't care about you or the soldiers or anyone dying as long as their needs are met.

 

[shinzen]

^
I couldn't agree more

 

[saided18]

Have you ever been to New York? I for one prefer the way it was and not the Police state it has become.

where do you live again??


i am in NYC all the time and live only 10 min away. where do you live? FL??

and how old are you. you ask any one that was old enough say NYC wasn't a place you wanted to be after dark. what ever think what you want. and i'll think what i want. =0)

 

[goldstar]

First, I say read a few things other than web sights such as Alan Colmes' book or Paul O'Neals' book and try to get a better point of veiw than watching Fox News.

Yes, I agree. Get off the internet and read some books. Here are some of my suggestions:
Useful Idiots by Mona Charen

Slander: Liberal Lies about the American Right by Ann Coulter

Arrogance: Rescuing America from the Media Elite by Bernard Goldberg

Shut Up and Sing: How Elites from Hollywood, Politics and the UN are Subverting America by Laura Ingraham

Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years by Rich Lowry

A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat by Zell Miller

And last but not least---

Losing Bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's Failure Unleashed Global Terror by Richard Miniter

I guess it depends on whose ox is gored. While we're stealing your liberty by converting New York City into a police state and making it impossible for you to sit on a milk crate without getting a ticket, you liberals are stealing my liberty in a much more profound way by whining for campus speech codes, politically correct speech, calls for hate speech legislation (a euphemism for the thought control liberals wish to impose on everyone who is not) and your attempt to completely secularize our society by denigrating religion and spirituality and substituting the idea of moral relativism where truth and morality depends on what the meaning of is, is. I could go on and on but I believe I have made my point.

02 DX Millenium Red

 

[shinzen]

notice any leanings in your reading reccommendations there?

I'll make it simple

http://www.lp.org/quiz/