Performance Alignment got a full degree + of camber out of my MSP.

[DistantTea]

I asked for them to get as much negetive camber as possible without breaking scca stock solo II rules. The alignment center is run by one of the Audi R8 LeMans technicians (I never remember his name). Three of our national champs goto his shop for their autocross alignments. He said there just wasn't any more play in the suspension to go any farther than this... without adding bolts or slotting of course.

Front:
Camber: -1.1 Deg
Caster: 2.4 deg
Toe: -.1 degrees

Rear:
Camber: -1 deg
Toe: 0 deg

I really don't understand the benefits of toe, but everyone says it comes down to chassis and personal tastes.

I was kind of shocked when I saw the prealignment spec sheet. From the factory and after 4k miles my MSP had these specs:

Left Front
-.9 Deg Camber
1.8 deg caster
.02 toe

Right front
-.7 deg camber
1.9 deg caster
.01 toe

Strange... but not horrible. I love the new alignment specs so far, but without autocrossing right before and then right after I really can't tell why yet. First autocross with this setup is next sunday.... here's hoping.

 

[scapamouche]

I think I got a little more caster, but less camber than you. I may try the loosen all the bolts stunt next week...

Just got back from a 2 day event on concrete: I CORDED TWO OF MY NEW ECSTAS!!!!!! ALREADY!!!!!

They're not badly off, and I'm getting them flipped next week. I had a chat with Andy McKee about them, and he said he'd be willing to use them if they were flipped, so I'll take the recommendation of a 3 time SCCA Solo II National champion...

In fact, HE'S gonna get them flipped for me: I loaned them to him so he could borrow a friend's wheels for his new RX-7 (The Tripoint RX-7 that Shauna Marinus won HER Solo II Championship in a few years ago, BTW...) and I had the only set of wheels handy that would fit on the donor IS300.... So I'll get them back in a week or so, flipped and ready to go.

At least for another 4 events or so That's how long it took to cord them... Admittedly, it was 2 drivers, and a total of about 50 runs, but STILL!!!!! Corded ALREADY!!!!

I think I'm going to try a set of Victoracers for my next set, and if I ruin THEM as quickly as the Ecstas went, I'll probably make the car into a proper STX car... I think I'll have to run oversize Victos (225/45-17 is sthe smallest 17" I can find) but oh, well.... Maybe the extra grip would be worth it...

One other thing: I finally got a setup with the Ecstas this weekend that WASN'T too tight.... I was running 55 psi front (with even Pyro temps all across the tread) and 36 psi rear. I like a car that tends to be a bit loose, and that's what it took to get the car to rotate enough for me to be happy. I may start messing with the rear toe, now that I know how to adjust it and reset it to where it was... time will tell...

Sorry to hijack the thread, but why start a new one?

 

[DistantTea]

Four events? Were yours heat cycled?

We're seriously considering an STX car. There are so many little mods I want to do to make the car more enjoyable on a day to day basis... but I'm locked into having it stock. But seriously I see the MSP as being an incredibly competitive D stocker... but only a mildly competitive STX car.

If you want to try some joint development of a competitive STX car me and my wife would be more than willing to think tank it with you. Some how we have to lose about 200 lbs from the car (I guess I could go on a diet... that would help) and get about 200HP out of the engine all within STX rules. Tires are an easy cheesy fix once you leave stock class. So I'm not worried about that... its the power and weight to compete with the car that Jeff Brown to took to STX 1st place at Nationals last year... thats the car to beat.

Jeff rode with me during a drivers school... he said stock to stock his Type R couldn't compete. But the Type R he drove at nationals wasn't his, weighed about 2500 to 2600 lbs and was sporting about 220hp... thats just hard to top.

The only other thing keeping us out of STX here is the lack of competition. We have about 14 regular D Stockers... two STXers.

 

[DistantTea]

I"m going to start a new thread about making the STX MSP... maybe a few others can chime in.

 

[scapamouche]

I already made my noise there, Tom.

In DS, the ITR is NOT the big dog right now: it's the BMW 330Ci. Many of the old ITR drivers (like Ron Bauer) have moved to the 330... It will take LOTS of work for an MSP to stick with them.

Interestingly, the only national level trophy for an MSP so for was IN STX.... third place at a Prosolo earlier this year...

My tires were heat cycled by ME.... I did not get them shaved either... My thoughts were that I was overdriving the car, and the lack of camber got to the tires. Talking with my wife, she doesn't think I was overdriving, but that still leaves the camber issue: looking at the tire wear profile, I think I'm only running on a strip about 1" wide on the outer corner of the tread as I corner, especially in fast sweepers... We need to get the car flatter, either front swaybar or shock settings. Unfortunately, the swaybar will make the car push even MORE, to my eternal disgust...

 

[MSP Pro]

Andy: Running on the outer 1 inch of tread in sweepers is consistent with the small amount of camber Tom measured on his stock alignment settings. It would be worth loosening all the bolts and getting as much negative camber as you possibly can out of it.

As for the Ecstas, nobody here in Oregon likes them as much as the original Victoracers, even with the change in compound for the Ecstas.

I'm still on street tires, the OEM Bridgestones, but I've already clinched the local class with 7 firsts and 1 second through 8 of 10 events. What's nice is that I'm within a few tenths of the D stock spec v and type r on race rubber! But most of our events have had pretty cool weather. I noticed the Bridgestones get slippery when the temps get above 75 and the race rubber really comes in above 80.

Ah well, enjoy the ride. Maybe the SEB will downgrade the MSP to GS next year? Or maybe the retune Mazda has in the works will find another 25 hp!

 

[MSP Pro]

Tom: Wow, nice alignment specs. Slight toe out should sharpen your turn in slightly, and balancing the camber side to side should help too. Did they rotate the upper front mounts to get this much camber? I heard that the top mounts are eccentric to the shocks and that you can get some more camber that way, but I haven't tried it. It also affects caster.

What offset wheels do you have your race rubber on? I'm thinking there could be some change in steering geometry with a different offset (and I haven't found ANY race wheels with +55mm offset!), but I don't know what would change or how great an effect it would have with only 5mm change or so.

Keep us informed on how the car does next weekend.

 

[DistantTea]

My ecstas are on another set of the OEM racing harts. One of the members on here decided to ditch his mazdaspeed and buy a boxster. So I got his wheels and 205 r compounds he used at one event for dirt cheap.

After this season the racing harts will be going onto our MPV minivan for some bling bling mommy mobile action and the mazdaspeed will get something a little lighter with a 49 offset.

 

[scapamouche]

I got the 15lb Team Dynamics ProRace 1 wheels for my set...

I have my struts set for max camber and max caster. It's only a touch more caster than Tom has, and a little less camber. I may go try to take advantage of the slop myself this weekend, we'll see.

The struts ARE eccentric, with 4 positions...

 

[MSP Pro]

Andy, did the Team Dynamics really measure in at 15 lbs for the 17 x 7 wheels? I read 16.5 lbs from Rishie and wasn't sure how close that really was. And that's a +50mm offset, wasn't it?
Sounds like a nice wheel for the money, but I can't afford any wheels/tires right now. Looking for EE work in Portland right now. Highest unemployment in the nation...

 

[ARunto]

scapa: Could be that your Estca worn cause you didn't get them shaved. Tire Rack wouldn't sell me the tires unless I got them shaved due to premature wear. They told me that they came with a warning sticker.

 

[scapamouche]

That may have been a contributing factor, but there's no way that's the whole story. The spot where the worst damage appeared was over the side of the tread, where I doubt much would have been removed if they WERE shaved...

I'm thinking about getting a set of Victoracers for my next set, and live with the rubbing and worse gear ratios from the 225/45-17s...

 

[Logan]

What does caster do??

 

[scapamouche]

Caster does two things: it helps the straight line stability of the car, and with a strut suspension like ours, it adds negative camber when the wheels are turned.

If you think about it, the strut is angled backwards, and when you turn the wheel, the strut rotates about that angled axis. Therefore, the outside wheel gets MORE angle as the wheel turns, increasing the effective camber of that wheel.