Interview with Bob Lutz by 4car

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=text18 vAlign=top colSpan=2>The world according to Bob... part one</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text11 align=left></TD><TD class=text11 align=right>by: Mike Rutherford</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Bob A. Lutz, vice-president of General Motors</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


















I've only ever met two people who have strong opinions about anything and everything while never, ever knowing what it's like to be lost for words. Both are tall, broad-shouldered, somewhat intimidating men in the motor business.

One is Jeremy Clarkson. The other is General Motors vice-president Robert A Lutz.

Lutz is a man of strong opinions. How strong? Well, let's start with the war in Iraq and Arthur Scargill.

Lutz says he's not close enough to the conflict in the Middle East to have definitive views on the subject. But...

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Apparently, Bob doesn't have definitive views on the conflict in the Middle East...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'The insurgents are the wackos from all over the Arab world. I mean, they're just sucking in all the crazies. I think it's kinda nice to have them all in one place. No, seriously... There was one report from the Marine Corps which I love. A colonel was walking the line, talking to the men, and asking them how things are going. The sarge reported that it's going great because they [the insurgents] can't wait to die and the US Military can't wait to kill 'em.'

His views on the UK and its most notorious union leader are equally intriguing and controversial.




'I mean, Britain's been slapped around for the last 30 years, you know, what with Arthur Scargill, the striking miners, Ford's gonna close Halewood and so on and so forth. So Britain is used to being in constant economic turmoil. Remember all the bloody-mindedness of the unions before we got Margaret Thatcher on board?

'But Britain is now the sort of country that's sort of gotten its act together. It's nicely attuned to the new realities of the world after losing its indigenous motor industry, such as the Rootes Groups and the British Leylands. They're all gone.'

And so, he reminds me, is Rover. I optimistically ask Lutz if GM had considered buying the deeply troubled Midlands firm when it was recently up for grabs?

'No thank you. It's with the Chinese now and, frankly, it was a headache we at GM just didn't need. Right now we have priorities other than buying automobile companies.'

I guess that a hard-nosed, global auto industry guy working for the largest motor manufacturer on the planet is about to tell me that in the big, bad, highly competitive world of countless manufacturers, car buyers wouldn't even notice, never mind care that Rover has gone. But his comments on the subject pleasantly surprise me.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Bob is a lifelong MG fan, and has owned a MGA</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'I'd shed a tear for Rover because I like Rover cars. I've always liked them. To me it was the secret British brand that non-posers bought into. You could argue that a Jaguar was a bit more ostentatious, but a Rover 3-litre was a truly elegant, high-quality, best-of-British car.

'And, of course, I'm a lifelong MG fan, having owned numerous TAs, TBs, TCs and MGAs.'


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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>MG: Lutz could be persuaded to lead a buyout</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Like the man said, the giant corporation that currently employs him as its vice-chairman of global product development simply doesn't want or need - and can't afford - yet another new marque. But if the MG brand came up for grabs on its own, without Rover, might there then be interest in an acquisition? Lutz doesn't hesitate but chooses his words very, very carefully.

'Er, it would interest me personally, not professionally. After I retire from General Motors I could be persuaded to lead a buyout.'

It's impossible to gauge whether he's being entirely serious. But I give him ample opportunity to modify, withdraw or laugh off his intriguing comment: he doesn't.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>With his piles of cash, Bob bought this plane</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Neither does he deny that he has made an extraordinary pile of cash for himself by working at the highest level for BMW, Ford, Chrysler and GM over several lucrative decades. (Being employed in the boardrooms of US auto corporations is said to be as profitable as acting in Hollywood - only the work's more regular.)

And when he talks about retirement from GM, he knows it surely cannot be too far away. After all, he was born in 1932. But he's 74 going on 47 and still has plenty of time, energy, enthusiasm - and money - to invest in the MG brand he openly admits he's a great and long-term fan of.


But for the time being at least, he's staying with GM and concentrating solely on his huge portfolio of companies and their products. Products such as Vauxhall and the Astra.

'I think the newest generation of Vauxhalls, such as the Astra, are sensational and will be highly reliable and extremely durable.'

He's already proved that he's prepared to dump certain badges. GM's South Korean-built Daewoo products, for example, are now Chevrolets in most parts of the world. So does he still need the Vauxhall marque?

'Well, we do and we don't. If you could wave the magic wand and bring it all under one brand - let's say, Opel - without a short-term dramatic increase in sales I think we'd do it because it makes all the sense in the world. But, for the time being, we just don't see any reason to do so.

'And although the value of the Vauxhall brand in the UK is not as good as I would like it to be and not as good as it was a decade-and-a-half to two decades ago, I think that with continued strong, interesting products of very high quality that are great fun to drive, that can always come back to us.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Could Vauxhall become Opel?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'And without doubt, Britain today is a better place to make things than Germany is. Germany is tougher than Britain. Germany, as used to success as they have been over the last 40-50 years are having a real problem as a country dealing with the new reality.

'Everything got bigger and better. The German manufacturers were wondering how anybody could challenge them. Now, all of a sudden, the whole thing is starting to crumble and they literally don't know how to deal with it. And that's the tricky part.'


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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Dodge Viper: an excellent car for its time</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

GM also has huge problems of its own, which Lutz acknowledges. But, understandably, he's keener to talk about more positive, product-related developments.

I step out of the latest Corvette and he informs me that I've just been driving the best sports car in the world. A little cheekily, I remind him that he said the very same thing to me a decade or so ago when he was at Chrysler and I climbed out from behind the wheel of his Dodge Viper.

'At the time I said that about Viper, it was a legitimate thing to say, because that car was the best back then. The first generation Viper, for its time, was an excellent car. Personally, I think it has now gone sideways in terms of styling, ride and handling: it follows ruts in the road much too much and it's really a very difficult car to drive now.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>"Corvettes have lost their open shirt and gold chain image"</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'Corvette is dead easy to drive and has a better power-to-weight ratio. The Z06 version is the absolute killer car. I think it's going to boggle minds when people drive that thing with its aluminium chassis, carbon fibre body panels and all. So yeah, Corvette is a solid hit.'

But in Europe at least, a Corvette is not necessarily the wisest investment because it tends to depreciate in value comparatively heavily, doesn't it Bob?

'That could be the case, although residuals are really a function of how desirable a new car is. And the Z06, for example, is highly desirable. As somebody pointed out, Corvettes have lost their open silk shirt and gold chain image. It's now much more of a legitimate sports car. As long as we can maintain very good demand for the new cars, there should be no problems with residuals."

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Is this Buick Lucerne really as well put together...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Apart from looking good, driving well and retaining their values, GM's global products are built to world-class standards, Lutz insists. He even goes as far as comparing the build quality of some of his cars with the best-made vehicles on the planet.

'We match Toyota actually. We actually match Toyota. And the goal is to go beyond Toyota.'

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>...as this Toyota Yaris?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Hold on. Is Robert A Lutz, really saying he believes deep down that GM cars such as, say, Opels and Vauxhalls produced in Europe are screwed together as well as Japanese Toyotas?

"Yeah I do. I do now. I would even say that's true of our vehicles built in the United States. If you want, I'll take you to see a Buick up close - and I challenge you to show me a Lexus/Toyota or an Acura/Honda or an Infiniti/Nissan with tighter body gaps and flanges, better interior fittings, sheet metal quality and so forth."

He's ecstatically happy about what he regards as huge improvements in GM build quality and, because he's a realist, he continues to accept that his Japanese rivals are still very good at what they do. Then there are the Germans.

But we'll keep you waiting until later this week for that, plus his views on China, how GM can heal itself and why automotive technology has gone too far.

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Part Two

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=text12>We left General Motors vice-president Robert A Lutz talking about how GM was taking on its international competitors.

After accepting that the Japanese were still very good at what they do, he sums up the Germans.

'I'll make one generic statement without singling out a competitor and I'll sort of ascribe it to all the German brands collectively: they have an obsession with advanced technology as if was the Cold War arms race. And, in the process, everybody forgot the customer. It was all about wowing the automotive journalists.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>German manufacturers try to out do each other with technology</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'And of course you had the big German electronics companies going around saying: "We shouldn't tell you this but we already have orders from BMW for this new advanced system. We're not supposed to sell you exactly the same thing but we could modify it a little and give you the second generation." Then the response might be, Oh Christ, we'd better have it. And that's how that was done.

'So it was always: "OK, if you have nine-channel vehicle stability enhancement, I'll see your nine and I'll go 12".'

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>The infamously user-unfriendly BMW iDrive</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
'There's a saying I like in electronics today and it goes: the art of the possible goes way beyond the state of the desirable. You can now do stuff with the electronics to make the car more complicated or, maybe, theoretically more capable - but, at the same time, moving it beyond the ability of the average human being to interface with all that technology.

'Have you seen those cellphones where you get an instruction manual that's as thick as a telephone directory and you can do your financial planning on it and reprogram it as a GPS? But hold on a second. The average guy is not going to do all this stuff. We use cellphones for phoning.'

He enthusiastically agrees with my personal view that a less-is-more approach is so often the best, most cost-effective and appropriate.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Cadillac STS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'Yes, absolutely. That's why we're getting such good reactions on the new Cadillac STS. A friend of mine from the west coast, for example, had a BMW 7. He called me and said he wasn't too happy with it and asked me if the STS is easy to learn?

'My reply was, if you mean does it have iDrive and all that crap, the answer is no, it does not. You can sit in it, you don't even have to open the owner's manual. You can get in and drive from the first minute.'

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Chevrolet Aveo</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

But that's not entirely true in all cases. Lately GM has been producing - and had technical problems with - some upscale cars with keyless ignitions and levers that look like they should release parking brakes... but pop open bonnets instead.

'Yeah, I've done that a couple of times myself,' Lutz graciously admits, giggling to himself as he does so. 'And you're right, a lot of our earlier, slightly more high-tech cars, especially when we moved them to Europe, had some electronic interference problems. Sometimes you could be carrying the fob in the car and the car didn't recognise it. So yeah, we had some early problems with that. That was maybe our one concession to electronic trickery. But we figured it was an acceptable one.'

Isn't there a case for GM moving away from gadgets, gizmos, bells and whistles that few real-world drivers want and, instead, building at least one minimalist product in the Smart/Scion mould, aimed primarily at the younger buyer, perhaps?

'We have it, in the US at least. It's called the Chevrolet Aveo,' Lutz says wearily.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Young drivers will be found driving beaten-up 3-series, rather than brand new Scions</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'Popular fiction exists in the automotive media, and in the minds of many automotive executives, that there is such a thing as a kids' car. It doesn't exist because kids fall into two categories. The first is when daddy is very wealthy and says "Now you've completed your exams, here is the key to a BMW M3". This happens in a tiny minority of cases. Then there's the other, much larger second category of people who shop used. And if you go to college campuses in the US I dare say a car that is hugely over-represented is a 3-Series BMW - but not new ones. They're several generations old, because what the kids buy is a used car of a brand they like. I did the same thing myself.

'The idea of 18-20 year old kids walking into showrooms with fists full of money is just totally nuts. I see Scions in LA and I haven't seen anyone under 50 driving them.'

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>The arrival of China as an industrial superpower will cause many changes in the world</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


China is a country Lutz could talk about for hours. He doesn't say so, but I get the feeling he's glad - relieved, almost - that the future arrival of the Chinese as serious players on the international automotive stage (they're not quite there yet) will more or less coincide with his retirement from the business.

'When China hits its stride and becomes an industrial superpower, I think it's going to cause a lot of radical changes in the world,' he warns.

Even now - as China is merely warming-up in preparation for its imminent global industrial assault - Lutz says GM has to make tough decisions on plant closures in America and elsewhere.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Factories need to stay economical to stay open</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>'Factories can only exist to the extent that they maintain high levels of productivity and quality. We never take factories out to reduce capacity because, in the final analysis, if you're not producing, you're not generating revenue. But it's clear that both in the US and in Europe we're just under dramatic pressure from the Asians...whether it's the Koreans, or Japanese or, one step removed, the Chinese. And ultimately it's those economic forces that close your plant for you. Because if you're not competitive on a cost standpoint, you either lose money selling the cars or you keep the margins up and you stop selling them. And that's really what causes plant shutdowns.

'Nowadays you cannot guarantee anybody's job in an industrial...'

Lutz stops himself, pauses, then chooses his words extremely carefully.

'In a western industrialised company. The competition is so tough. The only thing we always tell our unions and workforce in the US and other parts of the world is there's no guarantee for anybody. But the best guarantee is high quality, low cost and constant pressure for improved productivity, because we're literally.... let's face it.... the whole western industrialised system is in a battle for survival against the growing Asian powerhouse.'

I ask Lutz if he knows what it costs to employ a Chinese auto worker against his or her counterpart in the US, and how significant the gap is.

'Oh it's huge. Huge. I actually don't know off the top of my head what we pay a Chinese worker at S-GM [Shanghai-GM] but it's probably something like a buck-fifty to two bucks an hour, whereas in the States it's about $24-28 an hour, plus medical and retirement costs. And if you put all that in together with retiree health care, which is a huge problem, we're up to over $55 per hour.'

That's not sustainable is it?

'No. Course not,' is the brief response, which says it all.

Lutz explains that GM and other US giants have managed to hold their own against the Europeans and immensely strong Asians in recent times, largely thanks to the weakness of the American currency.

"We got a lot of benefit from the weakening of the dollar, which is something that had to happen or we would have been cleaned out, industrially. Especially with the expense of the Iraqi war, which cost us scores of billions of dollars in 2005 alone. You can't pay off those debts unless you devalue the currency.

Lutz admits that GM's profitability - or lack of it - is unacceptable. In the last full financial year its losses totalled $10.6bn. I tell him that I sometimes wonder why huge, financially troubled corporations such as his bother to continue building cars for so little, if any, profit.

'That's what our board says too,' he tells me.

'If you were starting out today you wouldn't bother. We are not producing wealth for our shareholders. There's no question about it.'

Again, I suggest that this situation is not sustainable.

'We do have a sustainable business model, but over the last few years we have not increased the value of the company. Toyota could buy us for petty cash, almost. They could buy us and they wouldn't even have to go the banks. So you know, that's pretty shameful.

'Now the only way I know how to fix that is with far better products. Just concentrating on the American market for the moment, if by doing new-generation, substantially more appealing products we could just reduce the average [sales] incentive from, say, $4,000 to $2,000 per unit. That's not an unrealistic assumption, because the new stuff we've put out has been selling extremely well. So, if you take 5m units, which is roughly our US production and sales, times 2,000, that's $10bn dollars, which would make a huge difference to the bottom line. So the only way out of this conundrum is to do vehicles the public really desires as opposed to vehicles that are just OK.'



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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Unions affect the number of Aveos that can be built each year</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I turn the conversation back to massively cheaper car production costs outside North America and western Europe and suggest that consumers - including his customers - love them and want them. He understands the point but seems unusually uncomfortable.

'Theoretically, we have sourcing flexibility, but before we brought the Daewoo Kalos into the US from South Korea as a Chevrolet Aveo we sat down with the UAW leadership and we discussed it, explained to them the need for the car, explained the impossibility of building that vehicle in the US, showed them analysis to where it was not going to cost UAW jobs, etc. And then finally they sort of agreed to 100,000 a year. Because, let's face it, short-term, the trades unions can cause you a great deal of grief if you don't do things in concert with them. So while on paper we have sourcing flexibility, in reality it's severely constrained.'

Who and what impresses Bob Lutz?

'Carlos Ghosn of Nissan/Renault does. Deeply. I think Honda and Acura are also starting to demonstrate a much more competitive side than in the last few years.'

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=text10black width="100%" bgColor=#cddbeb>Bob feels Toyotas lack soul</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Has he gone a bit cool on Toyota?

'They still are the benchmark in many things. But when you talk about what excites me, their execution and reputation is very good and they're riding this enormous wave of worldwide goodwill with a press that says Toyota can do no wrong. They've done great cars. But currently I can't find anything in their line-up where I say wow, I want one of those. I agree with those who say Toyotas lack soul. And the same applies to Lexus. I really haven't seen anything from them that excites me as a car guy.'

Bob's banker father worked and lived until the ripe old age of 93. And Lutz Jnr believes he's also well placed to carry on turning up at the office for a few years yet. But the truth is that he is nearing the end of a long and legendary automotive industry career that kicked off at GM in 1963. He reckons that young, enthusiastic, committed people thinking of joining the business today can still look forward to a bright future. And his advice to any budding international car company hot shots?

'If I had a son and wanted him to get started in the business I would probably tell him to go work for an Asian manufacturer for a while, put in five or 10 years with that company and then take that acquired learning.'

Because he still looks, feels and acts like a man who's considerably younger than his years, he's not yet even thought about establishing the Bob Lutz Institute, or something similar.

'To me, the most valuable legacy would be for it to be said of me after my departure that he brought the GM culture back to what it was in the 60s, when General Motors was the top automobile company in the world.'

If not a Lutz Institute (or a MG sideline) then, any chance of a role in politics when the auto industry career finally comes to an end?

'I occasionally think that it would be fun to do something like running for Governor of Michigan, or something like that.'

And on what political ticket would he run for office?

'Oh God, Republican. Did you really need to ask?'
source:http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/features-2006/bob-lutz/part-two.html
 
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