I can spin the front tires on my AWD CX-9 .... is this normal for this AWD system?

mazdadude said:

Is yours really an AWD model? Perhaps somebody might have stuck an AWD decal on it? ....

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LOL. It is very much an AWD model, trust me. It has the drive shaft, the tiny rear differential, and all the other awd hardware - i checked.

As somebody else here mentioned, the CX-9 has a lot more power than the CX-5. Not a fair comparison. The Cx-9 offers lots of torque at low RPM and on a FWD car will easily cause wheel spin. However, on a AWD car with a SMART awd system, that should not be the case.... but clearly i have to adjust my expectations.

Srad600 said:

Again, I agree with the highlighted portion, it's happened to me as well. But next time you're in the same situation try applying the brake with your left foot and gas with your right, once the rpms come up a bit release the brake to lauch. In my experience this somehow forces the torque split to the rear wheels faster than if you just stomp the pedal. No front wheelspin, the car just goes.

I see what you're getting at, I've had 4wd jeeps, Audi Coupes, even a little subaru...all of which never spun a tire on dry pavement unless I was doing something really stupid (which may have happened on occasion) but those are dedicated 4wd systems. The two systems both have their place, and I believe they both work, just in slightly different ways.

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Well, i am very glad that i am not the only one who has experienced this behavior. I am more and more convinced that my car is not defective. It is just designed to behave as FWD car most of the time.... despite Mazda's bold and misleading statements about its 'oh so smart' AWD system. I am adjusting my expectations.

As far as ..."next time you're in the same situation try applying the brake with your left foot and gas with your right, once the rpms come up a bit release the brake to lauch. In my experience this somehow forces the torque split to the rear wheels faster than if you just stomp the pedal. No front wheelspin, the car just goes." ... i am sure this trick will work, if you tried it, but my question still remains -- if the system was so smart, with 27 sensors monitoring and all that, why on earth do i have to use two feet in a modern AWD car to get full traction on dry pavement or avoid torque steer? The car should be smart enough to prevent all of it, no?

danmm7 said:

... i am sure this trick will work, if you tried it, but my question still remains -- if the system was so smart, with 27 sensors monitoring and all that, why on earth do i have to use two feet in a modern AWD car to get full traction on dry pavement or avoid torque steer? The car should be smart enough to prevent all of it, no?

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It should be but you'll have to take that up with Mazda, I don't have an answer for you on that one. (popcorn)

All I can say is I knew that the car exhibited this behavior before I set foot in one. I watched an online review of the car and the same thing happened to the reviewer. So this did not come as a surprise to me. I'm not 100% happy with it, buuut, in the long run, I still feel I got my dollars worth.

I'm guessing you did not see the same reviews that I did, so I can understand being a bit surprised by it.

FYI see the link below for the review I'm referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9tgEt6xRDo

It's kinda long, so you can skip forward to about the 20 minute mark when he goes for a test spin in the CX-9. He comments on both the wheel spin and the torque steer as he's driving.

Does the CX-9 use the same parts in the awd system as the cx-5? Perhaps the clutch pack coupling unit for the rear diff needs to be upgraded for the higher torque values of the CX-9.

Seems like the older active torque split is responds better (during heavy acceleration). I never had torque steer on my Gen 1 (maybe a little but insignificant to affect steering).

A side note... does '18 CX-9 now have this?

https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/th...2017-mazda-cx-5-unlocks-secret-off-road-mode/


Some questions came about from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF6nRPD_xyM&feature=youtu.be

"Courtesy of engineer Dave Coleman - Mazda USA

“That diagonal twist scenario is actually a test of the traction control system more than the AWD system. Like the Outback, we have open differentials front and rear, and a multi-plate clutch torque coupling controlling the connection between the front and rear wheels.

With this layout, if one wheel comes off the ground, and the front and rear wheels are locked together, the tire in the air will be constrained by the three on the ground. If a rear tire also loses traction, then the two unloaded tires can spin. The locked torque coupling will force the front and rear axles to go the same speed, but the open differential at each axle can distribute that speed unevenly side to side. In this case, the unloaded tires spin the same speed, and the loaded tires stay stationary.

At this point, we have a traction control challenge, not an AWD challenge. A traction control system should be able to apply the brakes to the unloaded tires, forcing enough torque to the loaded tires to pull the car up the hill. This is where Mazda's unique traction control strategy shows where our priorities are. We're strongly focused on giving the driver smooth, linear, predictable control of the car. When a tire starts to spin, most traction control systems will abruptly cut power and apply the brakes to regain traction. We consider this a rude and unnecessary interruption of the driver's control. Traction loss is not binary. There is a lot of remaining tire grip available as the tires slip on the surface, so we can maximize grip and control by smoothly reducing torque until we get back to the ideal slip ratio. This more subtle application of traction control makes the car much easier to control on slippery surfaces, but when a tire comes completely off the ground like this, the brake intervention isn't strong enough to stop the unloaded tire.

It seems like the traction control system should be able to identify this completely unloaded situation and treat it differently, but we are constrained by the architecture of the traction control system supplier (most manufacturers don't make their own traction control systems, they simply apply their tuning to a system made by a specialist supplier).

Starting with the 2017 CX-5, we have added a special off-road algorithm to deal with this situation. To keep it from interfering with on-road performance, it is activated by turning the traction control off. (Yes, this is a little counterintuitive).

This algorithm still allows quite a bit of wheelspin because CX5 is available with a manual transmission in some markets and we don't want abrupt braking to stall the engine.”

The vehicle performs significantly better with the TCS off. In fact, we just took part in the Motor Press Guild’s Droptops and Dirt yesterday in California and went up the rough hills that the Land Rovers and 4Runners used just to see how well the new algorithm works…it works quite well. J

The new CX-5 is the first Mazda to get this new algorithm, but it will trickle into other AWD Mazda vehicles in the coming model years."

This point explains what the OP is most likely experiencing:

"so we can maximize grip and control by smoothly reducing torque until we get back to the ideal slip ratio. This more subtle application of traction control makes the car much easier to control on slippery surfaces, but when a tire comes completely off the ground like this, the brake intervention isn't strong enough to stop the unloaded tire."

When I floor it straight on I don't notice any loss of traction. Only when I've put it down into a turn have I noticed some chirping. I wouldn't expect the AWD system to adjust instantaneously with 310 lb ft of torque at 2000 rpm. Who cares if it takes a whole second.

JPL said:

When I floor it straight on I don't notice any loss of traction. Only when I've put it down into a turn have I noticed some chirping. I wouldn't expect the AWD system to adjust instantaneously with 310 lb ft of torque at 2000 rpm. Who cares if it takes a whole second.

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I do care, because it takes more than a second. I do care because when i go on a camping trip and on the gravel road going uphill, the guy in a 300+hp RWD Infiniti M37 sedan spins his rear tires LESS than i spin my front tires in my so called "AWD" Mazda CX-9. I do care because my previous car had a lot more power than the CX-9, at lower rpm too.... and the AWD system (quattro) never exhibited any torque steer, wheel spin, chirping, etc, etc. Yet....Mazda claims that the CX-9 has this super-duper, smart, proactive AWD system. Something just doesn't add up so i decided to ask. Looks like i am not the only one with the same observations.

My conclusion based on everything said so far is that the CX-9 AWD is nothing special at all (i am being generous) and that it is only marginally better than the FWD version of the car. Good news .... i need AWD traction only 2-3 months per year, i can afford good snow tires, and i know how to drive FWD and RWD cars in snow too, so i will manage to get around in the "AWD" CX-9 during my mountain trips just fine. I will simply adjust my expectations and focus on the positives of the car.

danmm7 said:

I do care, because it takes more than a second. I do care because when i go on a camping trip and on the gravel road going uphill, the guy in a 300+hp RWD Infiniti M37 sedan spins his rear tires LESS than i spin my front tires in my so called "AWD" Mazda CX-9. I do care because my previous car had a lot more power than the CX-9, at lower rpm too.... and the AWD system (quattro) never exhibited any torque steer, wheel spin, chirping, etc, etc. Yet....Mazda claims that the CX-9 has this super-duper, smart, proactive AWD system. Something just doesn't add up so i decided to ask. Looks like i am not the only one with the same observations.

My conclusion based on everything said so far is that the CX-9 AWD is nothing special at all (i am being generous) and that it is only marginally better than the FWD version of the car. Good news .... i need AWD traction only 2-3 months per year, i can afford good snow tires, and i know how to drive FWD and RWD cars in snow too, so i will manage to get around in the "AWD" CX-9 during my mountain trips just fine. I will simply adjust my expectations and focus on the positives of the car.

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Buddy, if you watch any video testing (such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfCNpmAjF4I) the AWD of the CX-9, you will see that it functions dramatically differently than a FWD car. Your statements are silly. It may not function the way you want but it is doing its job.

Honestly, sell it. You will never be happy with it for some reason. Just sell it and move on. It is not the car for you.

on balance, I thought it was quite decent for soft-roaders like the CX family. It is afterall more for purposeful use by most folks when the terrain encountered becomes a little more challenging, but not a recreational off-roader where you actively seek out challenging terrains.

dougal said:

Buddy, if you watch any video testing (such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfCNpmAjF4I) the AWD of the CX-9, you will see that it functions dramatically differently than a FWD car. Your statements are silly. It may not function they way you want but it is doing its job.

Honestly, sell it. You will never be happy with it for some reason. Just sell it and move on. It is not the car for you.

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Buddy, what car is for me and what isn't ... is MY decision, not yours! Chill. I did not want to upset a couple of 'die hard Mazda fans' by asking what is 'expected' from the super-duper AWD system advertised by Mazda. I got plenty of good, useful feedback and i do know that my car is not broken. It is designed that way, despite what Mazda claims in their promo/marketing materials.

I get it - the Mazda AWD system is not designed to handle any real off road and it even allows for torque steer with the turbo engine (sad, but true).
Clearly, it will never match the capability of my Audi or Lexus GX or most of the other "old school" 4x4/AWD cars i have driven so far. I can live with that as long as i can do my ski trips safely and i get out of my own driveway in the snow.

The real test will be this coming winter. I am happy to revisit the topic after i test the car in the snow with Nokian tires. If it fails, yes, you bet there will be a different, better, more capable SUV, on my driveway.

I chose the CX-9 after i test drove MANY other options in it's class and the class above it. There are MANY positives about it. I like the car for the most part. Unfortunately, i made the mistake to assume that its AWD system is as impressive as its interior, looks, engine and handling. I didn't test drive the car on snow/mud covered roads, obviously. So far, i am very unimpressed with the AWD and this is what triggered this topic.
I get it that some of you here do not want to hear/read anything negative about the Mazda brand, but reality is - Mazda is NOT perfect in everything, they drop the ball here and there, or cut a corner..... and that is OK!!
I am a car guy, not a fanboy, and i can tell you that after owning and WORKING on more than 10 different car brands (domestic, Euro, Japanese) there is NO perfect car. Everyone cuts corners somewhere, the question is...how much you care about the specific feature they decided to go cheap on...and what else they offer to compensate for it.

Anyway.... winter will be here soon. I can't wait to see how it goes.

Until then.... i guess i should focus on Youtube videos that only praise the Mazda AWD system...and just ignore the ones that expose its weakness, just so everyone here is happy! LOL
I will just assume these two are fake news: LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFgTc5ViX34 ...or ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF6nRPD_xyM

Cheers!

To the above poster, no it is not fake news what you hear. I love my cx-9 but i don't like the expensive transfer case or water pump repair. As for the second gen i have already read about the problems that it is giving a few here. I am waiting to see what happens later down the line with the transfer case and water pump on these turbo engines. You are making an assessment based on your experience and no one should comment on it.

After my first winter with the Cx-9, I was pleasantly surprised about how well it handled the snow. I figured the OEM tires would handicap it in snow but I had total confidence in it's handling. The only thing I noticed with the AWD is that the traction control can get in the way which is common.

kornholio said:

To the above poster, no it is not fake news what you hear. I love my cx-9 but i don't like the expensive transfer case or water pump repair. As for the second gen i have already read about the problems that it is giving a few here. I am waiting to see what happens later down the line with the transfer case and water pump on these turbo engines. You are making an assessment based on your experience and no one should comment on it.

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Disagree. If someone has a similar experience, but makes a different assessment, that could be important information to have as it could help to identify a potential issue that extends beyond what is "expected". Personally, I haven't experienced the spin that danmm7 has reported, but I also haven't been in the same situation that he's been in. After the commentary provided by other members, I know what to expect in that situation, and I'll be better equipped to deal with it or avoid the situation altogether.

JPL said:

After my first winter with the Cx-9, I was pleasantly surprised about how well it handled the snow. I figured the OEM tires would handicap it in snow but I had total confidence in it's handling. The only thing I noticed with the AWD is that the traction control can get in the way which is common.

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I got my CX-9 at the beginning of January in Calgary. Couldn't even call it winter at the time, conditions felt closer to spring. The real test for me will be a Winnipeg winter. As long as its as good as my old, lowered 08 IS250 AWD was, I'm happy.

This video... i find very useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuB3OsHKWSc

It confirms the previous comment that turning traction control OFF is the best way to put the car in "off-road" mode.
Still not amazing, but looks way better than when the the TCS is on.


This next one.... is a fun video. It makes me feel better about my CX-9. If it can survive the nasty Russian mud/snow roads.... it should be sufficient for my winter needs...as long as i don't attack very steep hills. The TCS Off trick will help too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgFp1t8qgTY

sm1ke said:

Disagree. If someone has a similar experience, but makes a different assessment, that could be important information to have as it could help to identify a potential issue that extends beyond what is "expected". Personally, I haven't experienced the spin that danmm7 has reported, but I also haven't been in the same situation that he's been in. After the commentary provided by other members, I know what to expect in that situation, and I'll be better equipped to deal with it or avoid the situation altogether.



I got my CX-9 at the beginning of January in Calgary. Couldn't even call it winter at the time, conditions felt closer to spring. The real test for me will be a Winnipeg winter. As long as its as good as my old, lowered 08 IS250 AWD was, I'm happy.

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I live in Winterpeg and owning the CX9 for a yr and a half now with 2 winters so far no issues on the AWD though haven't driven it in deep snow. Compared to my prev CUV (XC60) the AWD system to me felt adequate and comparable to the Volvo...although I wasn't confident in the OEM tires of the CX9 that I replaced them with Nokian all-weather tires. Made a significant difference...the other disappointing thing for me is that the HVAC can't handle the minus 30deg temps so much that even if heater was set to the warmest the blowing of warm air isn't enough to fully heat the cabin. Never had an issue with my prev Volvo though that was a smaller vehicle than the CX9...oh well

Currently have a 2009 CX GT.

I have to agree with danmm7 with torque steer on the new gen CX9, never felt that in my 9 in rain or snowy conditions. With good winter tires I rarely had TCS light come on, only unless it's glare ice. Granted the new engine put out way more torque it would be nice to have it all applied to the ground rather than slipping or kicking in the TCS.

I agree with tekz, I had a 2018 Signature demo this winter in Edmonton, -30 to -35 for week, also found it had a hard time getting the cabin warm from cold. Takes a really long time for the coolant light to go out. Also, had cx9 loaner for a day this summer +30, AC doesn't really put out cold either, that V6 just put out way more heat and was able to keep the cabin way cooler.

tekz said:

I live in Winterpeg and owning the CX9 for a yr and a half now with 2 winters so far no issues on the AWD though haven't driven it in deep snow. Compared to my prev CUV (XC60) the AWD system to me felt adequate and comparable to the Volvo...although I wasn't confident in the OEM tires of the CX9 that I replaced them with Nokian all-weather tires. Made a significant difference...the other disappointing thing for me is that the HVAC can't handle the minus 30deg temps so much that even if heater was set to the warmest the blowing of warm air isn't enough to fully heat the cabin. Never had an issue with my prev Volvo though that was a smaller vehicle than the CX9...oh well

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Nice to see more Canadians around! tekz, didn't realize you were in Winnipeg as well, we just moved back here from AB a few weeks ago.

My A/C blows cold and is actually just as good as it was in the small sedan I had before. My chest always seems to feel a little warm when the sun is out though, and I'm sure its because of the thicker windshield glass. The underperforming heater is concerning, especially with a baby in the car.. it never got cold enough in AB for me to really test it, but hopefully I don't have the same issues you do.

Did your Sig also come with Bridgestone Ecopia tires?

Blocking off the radiator in winter like on diesels should help warm up the engine more quickly. Is that viable?