Failed piston ring?

MAMotorsports said:
An RA is a roughness average of the surface in micro inches or (micro meter). Measuring RA value of cylinder bore surface will tell you if you are on the right track. At the very minimum you need a profilometer. The profilometer measures RA and works by dragging a stylus across the surface giving you your roughness average value. Different ring patches require different ring values in order to seal properly. If you tell me what ring package you are using, I can tell you the RA you need. The profilometer is typically 5K to 15K dollars. See if any local machine shops near you have one that you can possibly borrow.
You're kidding me about the "borrow" thing, right?

With today's technology it is essential that you get the proper RA for the ring package you are running to get the longevity and reliablity of your ring package.
Next, you need to get a bore gauge and make sure you don't have bore taper. On a motor that has been run, it develops tapered wear patterns. Typically it wears more at the top then at the bottom. This is because it is wear loads and heat is the greatest. A tapered cylinder is hard on the rings because it forces the rings to expand and contract with every stroke of the piston. The in and out movement of the rings also cause wear in the piston ring grooves. Tapered cylinders also increase piston to bore clearance which in turn increases blow by, reduces compression and causes the engine to consume oil. Blow by can create additional wear problems within the engine by washing oil off the cylinder walls (this accelerates ring wear) and by contaminating the oil in the crank case with fuel and moisture. Taper wear typically leaves a small ridge at the top if each cylinder. If the ridge is more than .033, it must be removed before the rings can be installed.
If you need any help, don't hesitate. If I can help you I will. I want to see you up and running with miniumum problems as possible.
Wow, this gives me a headache and makes me depressed at the same time.
When we built this motor, the rings were filed down. I realize that getting it all machined and such is a better way to go about it, but can't I just get away with doing the same thing with a 12K old block?

Also, can/should I drive the car?
 
Kooldino said:
You're kidding me about the "borrow" thing, right?


Wow, this gives me a headache and makes me depressed at the same time.
When we built this motor, the rings were filed down. I realize that getting it all machined and such is a better way to go about it, but can't I just get away with doing the same thing with a 12K old block?

Also, can/should I drive the car?
You might get lucky and they let you borrow it.If not, you can try and offer beer or food if they bring it by(try every angle) or bring the block down if you do decide to pull it.IMO there's not much left when you have the motor broke down.A few more bolts and it's out.Might take you 20 more minutes to pull it.That time there is more than made up when you go back to assemble it.The timing cover(whole area) is alittle tight while in the car for example.

12K, I would still check it.Personally I would hate to get everything all back together and find more problems later down the road.The extra time spent now could save you alot of headache and money.

The numbers you have are a bit low, I wouldn't drive it if you are not going to bore,hone and plateau the cylinders.
When you get it apart I would check the piston ring grooves for wear.
 
Focus said:
lol, sleeves are for hondas. Anything more than a slight hone, the block has to come out of the car. When I twisted my rod we rebuilt the engine in car. Let me tell you it's a hell of a job. The only major hickup was removing the oil pan. They did it without removing the tranny, by drilling a little access window to get to two bolts.
Kooldino--Nick did this on Dean's car, he drilled 2 holes to give him access to the 2 bolts. You might want to hit him up on where exactly to drill the holes. Seems that if you are going to keep it in the car, this is the best way to get to them.
 
Bigg Tim said:
Kooldino--Nick did this on Dean's car, he drilled 2 holes to give him access to the 2 bolts. You might want to hit him up on where exactly to drill the holes. Seems that if you are going to keep it in the car, this is the best way to get to them.
I'll try to see if I have a picture of it.
 
MAMotorsports said:
You might get lucky and they let you borrow it.If not, you can try and offer beer or food if they bring it by(try every angle) or bring the block down if you do decide to pull it.IMO there's not much left when you have the motor broke down.A few more bolts and it's out.Might take you 20 more minutes to pull it.That time there is more than made up when you go back to assemble it.The timing cover(whole area) is alittle tight while in the car for example.
Yeah, that is a pain, but I don't have a lift or a cherry picker to pull the motor. Let alone an engine stand.

The numbers you have are a bit low, I wouldn't drive it if you are not going to bore,hone and plateau the cylinders.
When you get it apart I would check the piston ring grooves for wear.
Ok.
 
Yeah I've been looking for pics of these 2 bolts and I can't seem to find them right now. I'll keep looking for ya.

Dave
 
well, while you have it apart that far you might as well do a timing belt & water pump. you'll also need an oil pan gasket. A piston ring filer, a piston ring compressor for reinstalling the rings. A galze breaker or honeing stone that attaches to a drill to break the glaze and re-croos hatch the cylinder walls so the new rings get a good seal. And you shouldnt need to take out the trans to do it in the car.

PS-> I rebuild big ass deisels for da' army. i know a lil sumfin sumfin any questions you have bring em on .
 
LittleRedWagon5 said:
well, while you have it apart that far you might as well do a timing belt & water pump.
Not a bad idea in theory, but the motor is actually only 12k miles old, so its should be good.

The timing belt was replaced back in May.

you'll also need an oil pan gasket.
We don't have gaskets, it uses RTV. :(

A piston ring filer,
Where can I get one?

a piston ring compressor for reinstalling the rings.
I was thinking that...

A galze breaker or honeing stone that attaches to a drill to break the glaze and re-croos hatch the cylinder walls so the new rings get a good seal.
Yeah, they have those at sears...I may get one.

And you shouldnt need to take out the trans to do it in the car.

PS-> I rebuild big ass deisels for da' army. i know a lil sumfin sumfin any questions you have bring em on .
You busy this weekend? :D Baltimore is 3 hours from me. :D
 
PRO 5 said:
Yeah I've been looking for pics of these 2 bolts and I can't seem to find them right now. I'll keep looking for ya.

Dave
If you can't find them before mid week, could you snap new ones? Did you have to drill any holes like other people did?

Also, to the guys who have done this before: should I put the car on ramps or on a jack? I normally jack the cross member, but I think I may have to take that out to pull the oil pan/girdle out.
 
Kooldino said:
Not a bad idea in theory, but the motor is actually only 12k miles old, so its should be good.

The timing belt was replaced back in May.

We don't have gaskets, it uses RTV. :(

Where can I get one?

I was thinking that...

Yeah, they have those at sears...I may get one.


You busy this weekend? :D Baltimore is 3 hours from me. :D

Summit would be you best bet for the Stones and the Ring Filer.
 
A machine shop shouldnt charge you more than 40 buck's to fit the rings, so thats probably your best bet. Plus with them doing it there's less chance of any breakage. Just make sure they know what the pecs are on the clearence's so they can fit them correctly
 
I wouldn't drive it if you have a broken ring. That can at the very least lead to scoring of the bore. If your not going to pull the motor, get a hone and just ream it alittle. If little to no damage was done to bores you should be okay with just doing that.

All told it took me 10hrs to pull the motor/tranny, swap everything over to the new motor, put a new oil pump, cam seals, and timing belt on.
 
BlkZoomZoom said:
I wouldn't drive it if you have a broken ring. That can at the very least lead to scoring of the bore. If your not going to pull the motor, get a hone and just ream it alittle. If little to no damage was done to bores you should be okay with just doing that.

All told it took me 10hrs to pull the motor/tranny, swap everything over to the new motor, put a new oil pump, cam seals, and timing belt on.
Yeah, but you're also the man at this stuff. Some of us don't do it for a living. :)

BTW, how exactly have you guys gotten the pistons out of the block? Do you use a wooden dowel rod or something just to tap it out of the top of the deck?
 
Getting them out is easy. You need a ring compressor to put them in however.

I'm actually going down to englishtown nj this saturday to run the scamp and my father is running the cuda.

How far are you from nj?
 
Does anyone know how I should orient the rings? Do the openings go 90* apart, 180* apart, etc?
 
BlkZoomZoom said:
Getting them out is easy. You need a ring compressor to put them in however.

I'm actually going down to englishtown nj this saturday to run the scamp and my father is running the cuda.

How far are you from nj?
I'm in NJ, about 1.5 hours from E-town. Right down the parkway, as a matter of fact. If you could come, I'd owe you big.
 

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