Dyno Day

I'm a member on another board but frequent this one quite a bit. You should not be suprised at your what you got on the dyno. Coming from from first hand experience from dropping a pair of jg cams and then switching them out for a set of crowers on my old 96 Prelude VTEC just dropping cams into an engine will NOT net you a large gain. There are many factors involved with modding cars and those of you that think that bolting parts on and then heading out to the local street races will net you some wins need to think again. If anyone is serious into modding cars than they will now that it takes a well researched plan to make ANY small normally aspirated 4cyl go faster.
I'm sure once you figure out how to adjust your timing you can take it back to the dyno to tune your car for even greater gains. IMHO I don't think the intake and exhaust cams are radical enough to produce huge gains
even with tuning. I am positive though that you would have gotten more power with a different header and exhaust. I have a feeling those two cats and that shorty header we have are the bottle necks in our quest in gaining large gains out of this engine. I gotta give you guys props though b/c this is one of the only Protege boards with members going all out and actually doing things in the interest of speed not rice.
 
One more thing. As a former Honda owner I was deep into the speed scene and though this might seem dumb to some of you if any of you are really interested in making your cars go fast there are is some good informaion on some of the Honda and Nissan boards that deals with discussions on more technical aspects such as compression and rod to stroke ratios and many things other things that you should now about your engine before you waste your money on products that might give you crap. I know some of you are anti Honda and Nissan but some of those guys have been into the speed scene for quite some time and know their sh$t about how to make power out of small displacement engines.
 
I'm almost positive I could get at least 140whp upto 160whp on an MP3 after spending a bit of money. I would share my ideas, but people on seem to get all butt hurt when someone post some realistic numbers. Plain and simple though, we'll need a more aggresive intake cam. "More lift and duration" And we'll definately need to remove the cats off course.

At this point in my budget I really lack the funds to build fast MP3. Even though Are parts are pretty cheap, when compaired to other cars like a WRX. Luckly though, when I do get some more cash like around this summer or so. People will probably have figured out how to squeeze more power of our motors as well. So I could see if my speculations and ideas are correct. So far, by seeing what other parts have done for our motor. I seem to be on the right track.
 
Apex,
Dude I hear you... I'm not really ALL that dissapointed with the results, at least it's a realistic view of what our cars can do with what's out there right now in regards to perfomanc parts. I agree that removing the cats, especially the header piggy back one is probably the best way to release restricted power. Also I beleive that timing is an issue here too. In the next coming months I plan on looking into a header, high flow cat (don't want it too loud), and possibly a piggy back unit for the ECU. Like I said, I Love my car, and my intentions are not to make a street racer out of her, but a track/autocross champion out of her. If I had wanted a Fast & Furious car I would have gone with a V8 or Turbo Charged engine. I enjoy the hell out of driving my car, and had the dyno done to see where I stood. Honestly, those numbers feel deceiving because the car feels stronger. I really wish that I would have had the car dynoed stock because I always suspected that Mazda was over-rating the HP on this engine. Like I mentioned before, Sport Compact Car has an MP3 test car now... maybe their research will shed a little light on the matter.
 
Damn I'm good...after reading your mods I guessed a "120". I was off by .9!
 
Coolhand, whenever SCC writes about the mp3, POST IT IN HERE! I wanted to subscribe to the mag, but I can't find it around here ANYWHERE!
 
Originally posted by Coolhand:
<STRONG> :( Well, sorry to dissapoint all, but she wound up topping out at a whopping 120.9 max HP and 118.8 max Torque. I'm in the process of scanning the sheets now, and will have up later today/tonight.
This brings to mind an interesting question... Did Mazda pull the dame scheme with the MP3/Pro 5 vehicle that they did with the Miata by claiming higher HP numbers than actual? Since Sports Compact Car debunked Mazda's Miata power claim, and they have recently acquired a MP3 test car, I plan on e-mailing them in regards to this. Don't get me wrong on this... I love my car, but if Mazda claims an output of 140 at crank, and MP3Ben's Dyno yeilded 114.8 MAX HP with a CAI. Based on a stock P5 run (102 Max HP), we probably have a 110 Max HP at the wheels stock. That is about a 22% loss from 140. Isn't that a bit much? Should the loss be that much? I've been told that on avrage a car losses about 12% of it's power due to drivetrain... another 10% seems a hell of a lot to lose. Anyhow, I'm going to contact SCC and see what they think. I'm thinking that Mazda may have "inflated" their HP numbers yet again and something should be done about it.</STRONG>
Click to expand...

actually, 20% is more the average for drivetrain losses. honda's run about 16-18%, and most of your camaro/mustangs run as high as 30% being rear wheel drive. miata's go at about 25%, which is kind of low. and the mr2 spyder getes about 16% losses. i wouldn't be disappointed with 20%, and if that is what it is, your engine is doing about 146hp. that isn't that much, but if your cams are out of tune (not degreed into spec) it could account for that. this is where you really need to look into getting adjustable cam gears. if you go to http://www.flyinmiata.com they tuned a bone stock civic si with cam gears and gained 26hp at the wheels just by adjusting the cams! i would bet with adjustable cam gears, you could get another 10-15hp easy.
 
Originally posted by Nik:
<STRONG>if you go to http://www.flyinmiata.com they tuned a bone stock civic si with cam gears and gained 26hp at the wheels just by adjusting the cams! i would bet with adjustable cam gears, you could get another 10-15hp easy.</STRONG>
Click to expand...

WOW, I've never, in all my years of dealing with Civic SOHC's and DOHC or even reading magazines, seen any Civic with any motor, gain 26whp. The most I've seen with cam gear & cams mind you, was between 14-16whp. That was on a 00' Civic SI. 26whp common man :rolleyes:, that's almost as absurd as someone claiming to get 265whp on a turbo'd integra only running 6.5 PSI.

What we should look for are consistant numbers. Tuning that stock cams will get us no where. And as for finding adjustable cam gears for the 2.0 liter FS, there aren't any out yet. I called about 8 different companies and none seemed to be looking into making cam gears.....YET
 
Hey guys, I think a lot of us missed the point. Right now its not important that the cams add 6, 10 or 50 HP. His dyno sheet shows that with all his mods right now he is making what ideally the car should have been making at the wheels WITHOUT the mods. I agree that a 22% loss from crank to wheels is way too much especially on a manual transmission car. I believe the cars are making less HP than what Mazda said. Has anyone seen the chart for the protege5. Some guy dynoed his and he only came up with 100hp at the wheels with a manual. Again, the loss is way too high. I think this is a cause for a letter writing compaign to mazda.
BTW, Mustangs do not loose 30% of power.
A '91 5.0 with timing set less than factory only lost 16%. With timing increased slightly and a new fuel filter istalled it gained 7HP thus resulting in a loss of only 13%. We are talking about a 10 year old car with an engine dating back to 1968. You want to talk mustangs? Lets talk mustangs.
 
I couldn't have, and didn't, say it better... my car is now at about 14% below stock crank horsepower. Let's say bone stock there's a 22% loss, it would be at about 109.1, right? I'll say it again, I think that's a bit much! We'll just have to wait until SCC posts some numbers, or if one of you guys with a stock MP3 wanna got get dynoed, then we'll have a comparison. Forget about the mods... I believe that 140hp at the crank is not the correct rating for this engine. Case in Point, the Lancer is rated at 120hp... same sized engine, same basic build except SOHC 16-Valve and 9.5:1 compression. If cams don't add "massive" hp (and I now believe they don't), then how does the Mazda 2.0 come up with those extra 20 horses out of a similar motor? Maybe it doesn't really put 140 out! That's what I'm trying to point out! I just want to know for sure that's all.
 
I doubt we're getting 140 at the crank...unless there is some kind of SILLY power loss to the wheels.

Thnx for the SCC link...
 
I am hoping that removing the primary cat will sort of enhance the cams. Beefier cams might not can make much more power cause the primary cat is way too restrictive. I plan on dynoing my car so we will find out.
 
i remeber reading that the the miata's one year were listed at more hp then they actually had. mazda had to add stuff to increase hp or refund $$ for the car. also mustang cobra's had the same problem they were listed at more hp then they had so ford had to add better intake manifold and ecu.
 
Kooldino said -
I doubt we're getting 140 at the crank...
Click to expand...
Dude... 140 is what Mazda "claims" the MP3 is rated at. Did you do any research on the car befor eyou bought it? That's my whole point! We probablyARE NOT getting 140 hp at the crank, or any where for that matter!!! If that is the case, then Mazda has to compensate MP3 owner in one way or another. Just as mentioned in the post prior to this one, it has happened before, and recently at that, with the Miata.
 
Bro, I feel your pain about not getting the results you should have, but I really think your may have just been having a bad day. If you remember MP3Ben's Dyno Results, we discussed the drivetrain loss issue. Funny how everyone is saying that the MP3 doesn't get the numbers Mazda claims when MP3Ben got the exact numbers he was supposed to.

I think after a few more people dyno their MP3's this whole Crank HP and Wheel HP topic will be less of an issue. MP3Ben even did a few calculations for you.

Anyway, Coolhand......Don't even trip man. How many runs did you get? If you had more than one, you should figure out the average of them. But, I think they're dyno may not have been giving the right readings. I say keep modding and take a trip back to a different dyno. I'm sure everything will be fine man. Good luck.
 
Apex,
I am taking it light and cool, that's my nature. First off... in regards to MP3Ben's Dyno, you say that he got the numbers he was supposed to. He actually sid he got the numbers he expected. How do we know "exactly" what numbers he was supposed to get anyway? Who at Mazda has issued a statement claiming a 22% loss at wheels stock? Where did this exact number come from? Who is MP3Ben to do "estimated" calculations for me or anyone anyway? I know that every car is different, and power loss is different from car to car as well. Therefore, being that (I don't think) anyone here on the board has produced any "official" numbers in regards to power loss, I want to further investigate the issue. Like I've said before, false power claims have been made before. If I'm wrong about it, so what? What have I lost? Nothing but some time at my computer e-mailing some people. But if I'm right, and Mazda either "fixes" our cars or pays up, well then all I'll say is that I 'll be content to feel happy. I'm sure if that is the case you would probably take advantage of the situation too. So, therefore, I will continue my quest to discover the truth. As for the pain of not getting the numbers I should have... there really wasn't any. I was a bit optimistic, but I also had realistic expectations. I wasn't too far off by hoping for another 9hp. Oh and for the record, I had 3 runs, and the first two were lower, so if I average them, I'll get a lower number still. So do me a favor... and don't trip yourself! I'm just doing what feels right to me.
 
The truth is out there. BTW, like he said that if mazda pays up or fixes the problem, if there is one, all of us would take advantage of the situation so it is in our best interests to do a little more research on this topic and pull a few more strings. If anybody out there is in the know, please post your findings.
 
i don't work for mazda, and i am only coming to thier defense because i think you guys are stupid to think that there was false advertising involved witht he MP3. after the fiasco with the miata, i doubt mazda would relese another car with the same horsepower discrepincy. that would be foolish, becuase as a corporation, i wouldn't want to get caught in that twice in the same year. second, didn't you test drive before your purchase? you liked the car for some reason, and now if you are dissapointed sell it.
 
Nik,
Only some pompous ass would call someone stupid without being a bit stupid themselves. Before you comment, be sure you read the entire thread... I cleary state that I love my car. If you know anything about cars, and you look at the test numbers, maybe you too can see that something is askew. The numbers don't make any sense! So maybe Mazda didn't learn their lesson, Nissan apparently didn't. They posted bogus numbers for the Sentra Spec V. Look, I'm not looking for support on this, if you don't believe or even consider what I think that's fine, just don't call me stupid. I'll say it again, and again, I love my car and I want to keep it, but if there is an injustice here, I want it to be corrected. Key word being "IF". If you want to sit on your keyster while I look into it, fine, just piss off with the judgmental namecalling!!!
 
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