Oldsmobile Is History!

Ahhh, Oldsmobile is history, and I couldn't be happier!

Well, hold on a second-- I guess I could be if Buick, Chevrolet, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, and SAAB also failed miserably. This I would celebrate with joyous glee.

I maintain contempt for auto makers who consistently build poor quality vehicles and expect the public to eat them up happily like it doesn't matter-- All while having the impudence to suggest we're getting a great product. And then refuse to put forward any real effort to increase their fleetwide fuel efficiency; indeed, growing WORSE than better. As the largest company in the entire world, they've delivered no alternative vehicles to market at all-- Last time I checked, Toyota and Honda had. But GM?

Flame and ruin to them all at that verminous company! They hath offended intelligent sensibility whilst making billions off of the hapless legions blindly buying their pathetic products, and I spite them!

Oldsmobile deserves its fate by earned distinction! To them I say: Good riddance! And dont come back!

Yeahhh, always refreshing to get a good flame off now and again

OHHHHHHKAAAYYYYY.......

And Mazda has a great track record as of late? The MSP is a POS, as is very much stated by the majority of owners on this forum. They grossly overrated the hp numbers onthier "Next generation rotary" had a major safty recall on thier flagship sedan, the Mazda 6. Ohh, did I mention that they are blatantly breaking federal laws by the unexcusable voidance of vehicle warranties on valid claims?

Now, lets look at GM.

Introduces the ecotec engine, which is capable of producing approx 350-400 WHP on stock internals. BTW, this is also a very efficient engine. Second, chevy is releasing 10 new vehicles, from economy class, all the way to the SSR. All these vehicles replacing previous generation cars, that have had gread sales records, and as of the last few year, very limited recalls, and very HIGH customer satisfaction.

Seems to me that he majority of foreign cars are going to the ways of the domestic cars during the 80s-90-s and the domestics are stepping it up big time, and blowing the imports out of the reliabilty water.

Repost!!!

boostisgood said:

OHHHHHHKAAAYYYYY.......

And Mazda has a great track record as of late? The MSP is a POS, as is very much stated by the majority of owners on this forum. They grossly overrated the hp numbers onthier "Next generation rotary" had a major safty recall on thier flagship sedan, the Mazda 6. Ohh, did I mention that they are blatantly breaking federal laws by the unexcusable voidance of vehicle warranties on valid claims?

Now, lets look at GM.

Introduces the ecotec engine, which is capable of producing approx 350-400 WHP on stock internals. BTW, this is also a very efficient engine. Second, chevy is releasing 10 new vehicles, from economy class, all the way to the SSR. All these vehicles replacing previous generation cars, that have had gread sales records, and as of the last few year, very limited recalls, and very HIGH customer satisfaction.

Seems to me that he majority of foreign cars are going to the ways of the domestic cars during the 80s-90-s and the domestics are stepping it up big time, and blowing the imports out of the reliabilty water.

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True. Its sad that the new generation Nissan Sentra was a joke until this year and that Volkswagon still can't get their heads out of their collective "German Engineered" asses to deliver a reliable product.

Toyota had a ton of issues with the Celica and mazda....well we all know the story there.

However, I wouldn't say the Domestic brands are getting any better, they are just getting caught up to in suck-dom my the imports.

And to support the thread starter...H2 = the worst vehical EVER!

boostisgood said:

OHHHHHHKAAAYYYYY.......

And Mazda has a great track record as of late? The MSP is a POS, as is very much stated by the majority of owners on this forum.

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Hey my MSP has been very good realibility wise.
Maybe I got a cherry amongst a sea of lemons

my p5 is 2 years old and i havent had a single problem with it........*knocks on wood*

As the largest company in the entire world, they've delivered no alternative vehicles to market at all-- Last time I checked, Toyota and Honda had. But GM?

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What abolut the EV1? it was out before any of these Hybrid POS cars.

Britt

BTW my 1995 Saturn SW2 was a great car. In 14 months/30,000 miles it had to go to the dealership once, other than oil changes. My MSP? Evry three weeks it seems. But a big Chevy one ton van ate the Saturn when my ex ran a stop sign. Held up very well.

Britt

cavalier... owned for 2 years.. been in the shop over 20 times
protege.. owned for 18 months.. in the shop twice (once for paranoia, other for new alternator that i killed and they replaced, free)

domestic cars are small on the interior (don't fit in any economy GM car)... aren't americans supposed to be bigger/taller than the japanese? or is it just that the japanese have the ability to look at their clientel and meet a % of the demand.

Yea it also was super impractical. It had an extremely limited range, extremely cramped interior (ive been in one), and virtually no support if you ever want to leave your area with the thing. At least with the hybrids they are far more practical.

122 Vega said:

What abolut the EV1? it was out before any of these Hybrid POS cars.

Britt

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GM Fails

(Heavily opinionated monologue, supported by factual representation)

Incorrect, boostisgood!

The new Chevrolet economy car you've made reference to is the Aveo, which isnt even built by GM-- Its a Daewoo. Anyone recall that auto maker? Even Americans as a whole didnt buy those for very long, and Daewoo was forced to withdraw from the North American market because they sucked beyond sentient comprehension. This presents as poor support for your amorous embrace of GM.

The Buick Regal is excellent, excellent, excellent in reliability; even better than the Toyota Camry, and this reality is most fantastic in my opinion! Too bad the vehicle itself is a homely boat, and its due to be replaced by the new LaCrosse, anyway. GMs most reliable vehicle is to be no more, with the reliability of new vehicles unknown.

Pontiac Aztek A real winner!

Cadillac CTS is off the charts in poor reliability, only eclipsed by the Jaguar X-Type (A Ford owned product) And Cadillac is supposed to be GMs flagship line.

Its completely true that Japanese autos have dropped in reliability, overall, compared to their previous standings, and that is as disdainful as GMs tomfoolery. Camry had reliability problems when it was first released, but thats been corrected and now Camry is near the top of all ratings, both in reliability and performance. Honda Accord? Its down from its previous Best Possible standing in reliability, but its still better than average. The Mazda6 has been extremely reliable, and well rated, from the beginning. The Mazda3 appears to offer the same characteristics. Overall Japanese makes have still not dropped to the level of GM. But lets consider the current numbers, shall we?

GM vehicles below average in reliability: 34

Toyota vehicles below average in reliability: 1

Mazda vehicles below average in reliability: 3 (These, by the way, are the Ford clone products, not Mazda designed; Mazda designed below average? Zero.)

Honda vehicles below average in reliability: 0

Nissan vehicles below average in reliability: 1


But lets forget about reliability, just for fun. How about the top 3 cars in each category for overall ratings?

Family Sedans:

1. Volkswagen Passat GLX (V6)
2. Toyota Camry XLE (V6)
3. Honda Accord EX (V6)


Large Sedans:

1. Toyota Avalon XLS
2. Buick Park Avenue Ultra
3. Lincoln Town Car Signature

Luxury Sedans:

1. Lexus LS430 (I consider this the finest production sedan, ever)
2. Mercedes-Benz S430
3. Audi A6 2.7T

Small Cars:

1. Ford Focus ZTS
2. Honda Civic EX
3. Toyota Prius

Fuel Efficient Cars:

1. Volkswagen Golf GLS TDI (manual)
2. Toyota Prius
3. Honda Civic Hybrid

Sporty Cars:

1. Ford Focus SVT
2. Subaru Impreza WRX STi
3. Mazda RX-8

Roadsters:

1. Honda S2000
2. Chevrolet Corvette Convertible
3. Porsche Boxster 2.7

Upscale Sedans:

1. Acura TL
2. BMW 330i
3. Lexus IS300

Wagons and hatchbacks:

1. Volkswagen Passat GLX 4Motion
2. Volkswagen Passat GLS (4-cyl.)
3. Audi Allroad

Minivans:

1. Toyota Sienna LE
2. Honda Odyssey EX
3. Mazda MPV ES

Small Sport-Utility Vehicles:

1. Subaru Forester 2.5 X
2. Toyota RAV4
3. Pontiac Vibe (AWD) (This is a Toyota, not a GM product, in case no one knew)

Compact Pickup Trucks:

1. Ford Explorer Sport Trac
2. Dodge Dakota SLT Plus 4.7 (V8)
3. Toyota Tacoma TRD (V6)

Full Size Pickup Trucks:

1. Chevrolet Avalanche 1500
2. Toyota Tundra SR5 4.7 (ext. cab)
3. Dodge Ram 1500 SLT 4.7 (crew cab)

Midsized sport-utility vehicles

1. Audi Allroad
2. BMW X5 4.4i
3. Lexus RX330

Large sport-utility vehicles

1. Toyota Land Cruiser
2. Nissan Armada LE
3. Toyota Sequoia Limited


So heres the score

GM: 3
Japanese makes: 25

Had enough yet?

Okay, lets then consider only the largest Japanese maker, Toyota. Toyota Vs. GM:

GM: 3
Toyota: 14

Rather talk about fuel efficient alternative vehicles?

GM: 0
Japanese makes: 3

Okay, maybe thats not fair. How about simply fuel efficiency in conventional engines?

The GM ecotec-- 2.2 liter 4 (in the Ion): 26/33
Toyota (in the Corolla) 32/40
Honda (in the Civic) 30/38

(All stats are taken from the Saturn compare web site, representing automatic transmission)

Engine reliability?

Toyota: Excellent
Honda: Excellent
GM: Unproven (new, although it hopefully will turn out well)

0-60 times?

Ion (ecotec): 10.3 sec.
Toyota Corolla: 9.8 sec.
Honda Civic: 10.3 sec.

How about overall ethics? Well, GM builds and promotes the civilian Hummer. As the ultimate poseur automobile, nothing else need be said regarding GMs lack of interest in reasonable, responsible, safe, efficient, vehicles. 10 MPG driving your power SUV around on Sunset Boulevard presents with no useful purpose beyond petty, narcissistic vanity that increases our dependence on foreign oil, chokes the air we breathe, and takes up valuable space. This alone should be enough to condemn GM forever.

There is no compelling logic behind steadfast support for GM in any category, and Japanese makers either match or beat them over and over and over again, in nearly every way. The record GM has compiled over the last 30 years doesnt bode well for future expectations, and while I actually would like to see them match or even overtake Japanese makers, good luck living to see that happen! As if you think Toyota or Honda, with their size and power, will sit by and allow their sales to be eroded by the likes of GM, this is a patent delusion of grandeur.

So when it comes to GM, you either have mediocrity in performance or mediocrity in reliability. They havent managed to put together a complete package vehicle that delivers excellent reliability AND decent performance since the early days of Saturn, and theyve let those slip now, too. The new Ion and L300 are good in reliability, theyre harsh, noisy, cheaply constructed, and primitive compared to the leading Japanese makes like Accord, Mazda3, etc.. Alternately, you could have the aforementioned highly rated Cadillac CTS, but it doesnt deliver the reliability ALL consumers should expect and demand. Compare that to Honda's flagship luxury division. The combined reliability and performance of Cadillac is laughable compared to Acura. And Lexus? It's offensive to even mention Cadillac in the same sentence with this phenomenal, superbly engineered line of fine automobiles.

But some people dont care about reliability/performance all in one package, and thats okay. If youre happy with GM, be my guest. Ill not play party to their mediocrity however. Not EVER; until theyve established a consistent record proven by hard data that shows reliability, matching efforts for fleet wide efficiency standards, and balanced performance. None of which GM currently respects. I therefore say, To Hell with them!

Yea it also was super impractical. It had an extremely limited range, extremely cramped interior (ive been in one), and virtually no support if you ever want to leave your area with the thing. At least with the hybrids they are far more practical.

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I didn't say anything about it being a great car, only that the statement that GM had delivered no alternative fuel cars was wrong.

Ill not play party to their mediocrity however. Not EVER; until theyve established a consistent record proven by hard data that shows reliability, matching efforts for fleet wide efficiency standards, and balanced performance. None of which GM currently respects. I therefore say, To Hell with them!

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That's because you haven't had a Z06 all out on a track!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

I know the Aveo is the economy car and is built by Daewoo. I was referring to ALL cars they ar building now. From the COLBALT, which is replacing the Cavalier, to the Equinox, which is replacing the blazer, to the Colorado, which is replacing the s-10. All top quality vehicles, that I have had a chance to drive. The build of these vehicles is top notch. Well past Dodge, and even on the equinox and Colorado, surpass the interior comfort of my MSP.

Secondly, lets look at what Chevy is doing with thier "eviromentaly friendly and economy based engine deisgns" Thier new breed of engines, when driving at highway speeds, will shut down half the cylinders, to conserve on gasoline and emissions. IMHO, I would rather have this then a frikin electric motor, turning my wheels.

Yes indeed! I quite understand the power associated with many domestic makes; GM in particular. Obviously, for instance, the Corvette is highly regarded.

That said, I care not about straight speed. I'm really just an average fellow, and while I can admire power to a certain extent, it's safe to say that very few of us here are professional racers, so how often do we use our cars for such purposes? Pretty much never, so it serves no purpose to own a fast GM car that we must fix every 5 months, or one that doesn't deliver the refinement rendered by the likes of Honda, for instance. You can keep a Z28 to race around if you wish, but relying on such a vehicle as your daily driver is ludicrous.

Regarding new engine designs, youre quite right, boostisgood! I totally forgot about GMs newer disable cylinder, DOD engines. You may recall a dubious flirtation with this exact same idea by GM back in the 80s. It failed miserably. Personally, I still dont think the idea will fly or otherwise work well, despite overall technology advances since the original attempts. Theres probably a reason no one else has pursued this technology, might I suggest.

And regarding the point of electric vs. ICU driving your wheels, what difference does that make? The real answer is, it doesnt matter: The same job of getting you around is still performed. And, in fact, electric can drive your wheels faster than using ancient-ass technology fire to burn fossil fuels, anyway. Check out the tzero!

The bottom line for me is not meant to be derogatory of others-- I just appreciate a company that tries to be the best in EVERY category: Refinement, performance, efficiency, reliability, safety The likes of Honda and Toyota are just that. They have continually worked to be the best, and the results of this determination can be clearly seen in actual production products here and now. They dont wait until someone else invents new alternatives for them and then just license it (like Ford does)-- They do it themselves. And they also dont waste resources pursuing dead-end alternatives: Even if DOD was to work, the internal combustion engine is going bye-bye anyway, sooner or later. Like it or not, were moving toward electric coil motors and this nasty, disgusting business of burning oil is to be eclipsed by cleaner, more efficient, faster, better electrical options.

GM fails. Begone with them!

just out of curiosity..

what would you prefer running your car?

s*** gas? (87 octane fossil fuel)
hydrogen? (can produce more power than regular fossil fuel)
electric motor?

I've driven in the Prius a few times before... it's a really nice car.. hell.. i ******' fit in the thing, i was impressed.. drove about 500km in 1 day, and still had more than half the tank left...
NO gas engine will give you over 1200km (800miles) to for a 50L (12gal) tank.

What everyone here is neglecting to see is that GM is THE BIGGEST CAR MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD. If they are that big, how can they "fail". I understand that until Mr. Lutz came over from the Chrysler camp that GM was on the downswing, but since he has been there the 3 makes that he has touched (Cadillac, Pontiac, and now Chevrolet) have turned to gold IMHO. The new Caddys are brilliant, in the fact that they have realized that they have gotten beaten at their own game by Acura, Infiniti, and the Euro manufacturers, they have catered to that audience. No longer is Caddy "that old persons brand", it's become a serious competitor with the edgy designs of the aforementioned makes i.e. SRX, CTS, etc.

GM has also come around with reliability. The new Malibu, which the Saab 9-3 and Saturn L series are based upon, has gotten the best new car reviews for sales and reliability in that segment (mid-size). Pontiac is becoming Pontiac again, with the Sunfire leaving (thank god), the grand am being replaced by the G6, and the return (albeit less than dramatic) of the GTO, and the projected Solstice a serious roadster, they are also poised to make a comeback. And no car company has done what Chevy is doing right now, which is in essence a COMPLETE overhaul of their existing car lineup. Chevy basically has said "OK guys, we're sorry, but the past few years we have sucked pretty hard, so here's a whole new lineup of cars that DON'T suck." I mean, look at the cars they are keeping. The Silverado (the second best selling vehicle in the country), the Corvette (the best bang-for-your-buck sportscar in the world), and the Impala/Monte Carlo (which were already redesigned).

So yes, in short, I agree that GM HAS failed, but at least they have realized their faults and are finally coming out with clear competition for the Asian and European markets.

MSPinVA said:

What everyone here is neglecting to see is that GM is THE BIGGEST CAR MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD. If they are that big, how can they "fail". I understand that until Mr. Lutz came over from the Chrysler camp that GM was on the downswing, but since he has been there the 3 makes that he has touched (Cadillac, Pontiac, and now Chevrolet) have turned to gold IMHO. The new Caddys are brilliant, in the fact that they have realized that they have gotten beaten at their own game by Acura, Infiniti, and the Euro manufacturers, they have catered to that audience. No longer is Caddy "that old persons brand", it's become a serious competitor with the edgy designs of the aforementioned makes i.e. SRX, CTS, etc.

GM has also come around with reliability. The new Malibu, which the Saab 9-3 and Saturn L series are based upon, has gotten the best new car reviews for sales and reliability in that segment (mid-size). Pontiac is becoming Pontiac again, with the Sunfire leaving (thank god), the grand am being replaced by the G6, and the return (albeit less than dramatic) of the GTO, and the projected Solstice a serious roadster, they are also poised to make a comeback. And no car company has done what Chevy is doing right now, which is in essence a COMPLETE overhaul of their existing car lineup. Chevy basically has said "OK guys, we're sorry, but the past few years we have sucked pretty hard, so here's a whole new lineup of cars that DON'T suck." I mean, look at the cars they are keeping. The Silverado (the second best selling vehicle in the country), the Corvette (the best bang-for-your-buck sportscar in the world), and the Impala/Monte Carlo (which were already redesigned).

So yes, in short, I agree that GM HAS failed, but at least they have realized their faults and are finally coming out with clear competition for the Asian and European markets.

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Wrong - check with JD Power and Associates

Toyota is the largest worldwide manufacturer by quite a large margin.