MP3, MSP and P5 Engine Management solution

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Turbo Matty P said:
im not saying this isnt a great item.....i'm saying for it to sell it's going to need to be cost efficient. the NA guys (me) will not get nearly the gain of the boosted guys. Therefore the PnP isn't worth as much...IMO. I REALLY want to buy one. I just dont feel that anything over $600-700 is worth it.

I would trust Nick and andy with my first born......if i had any.
Matty this may not be for you. Cost efficiency is based on end results and function.
I knew this would be a hairy issue to some. BUT it is the only unit that will keep you reliable and powerful at the same time.
I hope some understand that it isnt "cheap" to have an engine management solution like this. I know it isnt for everyone but those who want complete and reliable control over their engine ( after spending money to make it faster) will immediately see why this is going to be worth every penny.
 
igdrasil said:
I have one good question

does this systems monitor ping/knock and references it to retard timing, for a protection?
Your right and it is a very good question. I will post about this very soon tonight.
Bare with me , I havent slept for days.
 
Turbo Matty P said:
any power estimates (however rough they may be) for the NA guys with the bolt-ons?? THIS determines cost-effeciency for me!!

In general, for an NA engine: It is isn't unrealistic to see upwards of over 30whp with JUST a standalone and good tuning...and that is the top of the curve, some engine's get a little less (usually those with pretty decent stock tuning from the factory) and those with significantly more (Those with complete s*** stock tuning, at least power wise)...I would be willing to bet the factory NA (and FI for that matter) FS's fall in the s*** tuning category, in which this standalone will help ten fold...It could be the only mod you do, and make the car unbelievably more fun to drive + more efficient + more reliable...

But don't look at it price wise matty...Without a standalone on an FS, you will never have a complete upgrade...You can add cams, exhuast components, intakes, internal work...whatever...but you won't have half the gain you will see once you complete the standalone upgrade...Every piece of the drivetrain works together, and working together is where the big gains come from (this is applying mostly to NA, but it still somewhat applies to FI)...You could spend a ton of money on mechanical components, and skimp on the tuning...and be unhappy...But with a decent list of custom cams, higher compression, head work, good bolt-ons and this standalone is where we realistically could be seeing some street driven, reliable 180-190+whp NA protege's...that use to be a pipe dream...and you WILL NOT do it without full control of the engine...
 
great job perfworks, thanks for all the hard work. People here need to check the AEM website to get an idea about the price range, and undrestand there is no way this pnp would be under 1K.
 
yeah I don't know where the notion of a said and done standalone upgrade being under $1000 with the features this one has came from....It won't be, but if you were only planning on spending that much anyway, this isn't for you in the first place...
 
SD MSD said:
great job perfworks, thanks for all the hard work. People here need to check the AEM website to get an idea about the price range, and undrestand there is no way this pnp would be under 1K.

Good idea, and those prices ($1800-$2600) on their website will show that this solution will NOT be the ~$1k solution people were hoping for.

If this is any indication of the price of the Protege version, I'm not going to shell out money for this, not because I think its too expensive, but because I don't believe I'll need it. All I want is 6psi and a J&S to protect my engine. I want a car with a little more umph. I can't justify making my daily driver car that isn't designed to push 240whp try and push it.

The AEM sounds awesome though (the ease of setup, the self-learning... yummy). But I'm beginning to think that spending SO much time on bringing this to the Protege market may not turn out to be the best move. The Protege is an econobox. Not too many people are going for this crazy amount of power you can achieve with the AEM unit, nor can they afford such things ontop of already expensive turbo kits etc.

Oh well. Reliable power aint cheap I guess. I look forward to the development of this thread/product though. This forum has been DEAD lately :)

Chris
 
i understand about the whole package tuning....i wanted to know what the gains would be after the package was complete...not stock. Stock I wouldn't expect to see more than 10whp, but with intake, headers, exhaust, cams, etc I'd better see more than 30whp. I'd much rather have a 200hp NA protege than a 200hp FI protege...i think everyone would. I'm just saying that I'll have to buy these other mods first BEFORE spending another $1K+ for the ecu to make them work together.....the cost really piles up fast. I just want to know that I'll be getting my money out of it once it's done.
 
p.s. what is everyone talking about drivability of the stock ecu??? My P5 drives great except in the upper RPM range, but there's nothing a computer is going to do about that....it needs a jackson racing supercharger!!
 
Turbo Matty P said:
p.s. what is everyone talking about drivability of the stock ecu??? My P5 drives great except in the upper RPM range, but there's nothing a computer is going to do about that....it needs a jackson racing supercharger!!

Matty, this confused me...You will get rid of all the ECU related driveability issues with a standalone...the poor breathing at higher rpm we have stock...will be completely thrown out, and even more so with cams and the standalone....If you are staying NA, those upper rpms are where you are going to see the gains...

and read my other post higher up...You said you were hoping for at least 30whp after the standalone and normal bolt-ons...I bet you will see at least that with just the standalone...
 
I cant get into way too much information here about various functions. I can explain how things work, but I wont get into how we configure our unit. I cant. I hope you all can understand.

Now first of all the stock Protege ECU utilizes an EECV EMS from Ford motor company. IT IS HELL for those looking to upgrade to forced induction. And still hell for the MSP's just trying to get a little more out of their car.
Simply put, The programming and the vehicles were designed one way and they want to keep it that way from the factory.
Piggy backs will only do so much. By the time you get to a point where you are satisfied with the your power levels, you have to worry about reliabilty and the adaptive strategy in the stock ecu.

The stock ECU in the protege has a data stream system. Or DLC. (data link connection). It is used to turn certain outputs on and off, activate solenoids , relays ETC. In our Parallel system we use the stock ecu in conjunction with the AEM unit. It is there only to maintain functionality to the ammenities like AC, Cruise control, Stock tachometer, etc.
The AEM in this particular VERSION will be used to control EVERY fuel and timing aspect for the engine to run. THE STOCK ECU DOESNT HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER THESE ITEMS ANY LONGER.
This goes for all the AEM versions we will introduce. The standalone version will be just that, a standalone. Just running the vehicle off the configurable inputs and outputs we program into it.
Unfortunately some stock functions are lost. NOT ALL!!!! just the Tachometer display at this point that we are aware of. We are doing further testing and this should be resolved also within a month. BUT some dont mind this little drawback. They use aftermarket Tachs and are done with it.
Not telling you guys you should but it is an option. Some just dont mind it. BUT in order to make everyone happy and run the vehicle like it came from the factory, we chose the Parallel mode.
Then you have the RACE version. This is a software version that will be custom spec'd for the customer upon reqeust. ANY and every aspect the enduser will need will be configured. This is not a priced item. It will depend soley on the vehicle and what the customer expects from the EMS to run ALONE for MAX performance only.
Obviously this wont be something many people will run on the stret, AT least not legally;)

Britt-
The unit doesnt need to switch mapping. Its not like a piggyback ECU where it has to work with the stock fuel and ignition curves. It will incorporate its own parameters to work out of. It will act like an NA car when you are not in boost and like a FI vehicle when in boost. Its all in the tuning. We will have it configured to work in that fashion. Also the stok functions will work fine with the parallel setup. We are going to still work on the data needed to configure the stock dash to work without the stock ECU in place. It will happen. Just right now the tach doesnt work . give it a month then it will be OK

Tonka-
One of the problems with using a devise to just lean out the mixture is that in turn it will most likely affect igntion timing directly. That will lead to worst detonation problems then what the Proteges face now.

Installshield- Thanks

Matty- I would love to speculate but I cant at this time. I will get some prelim figures out very soon though.

Igdrasil- The AEM has an active Knock retard and fuel enriching procedure. This function will be ON. It will be much more agressive then the stock unit. It will retard based on detonation and add fuel if need be. It works off percentage of throttle, fuel and ignition timing.
It doesnt just retard off boost or set intervals. It will adjust timing depending on the set parameters we set into the unit. It will keep your car as safe as possible. Even when YOU dont hear the audible knock.
I have set the units we work on now to retad a set percentage based on load and boost level. Along with adding fuel to counter knock and keep cylinder temps low.
I will get into alot of specifics once we get the units out here in the coming weeks.
Im just tired guys. I know I missed some questions. Just please feel free to ask what you like and I will answer then the best way I can.
 
DooMer_MP3 said:
Good idea, and those prices ($1800-$2600) on their website will show that this solution will NOT be the ~$1k solution people were hoping for.

:)

Chris
Guys the unit will be no where near over $2000. Please let me get some info first before making assumptions. The AEM website is a great indication to what the product goes for on the open market. This is not going to be overly expensive unit. There will be two prices. Then the rest will be Injector upgrades, Wideband option and so on.
We will price the Parallel unit and then the Standalone unit. That is all. The rest will be options.
Typically the units range from $1550 to $1900. We believe to be under these figures so as to be affordable. I will have some concrete pricing in the next day or so.
DONT forget these units come tuned completely. It is actually pretty cheap. AEM sends out the units that are PnP with base maps only to start the car. NOT drive it.
 
wow, good info....it appears the ecu i will need will cost more now! I hate to keep harping on cost when it hasn't been disclosed yet, but it will be higher than I expected. I'm only worried about the benefits vs. cost. I dont see how an ecu can change my entire powerband to allow more top end pull. I know cams will help, but not in the neighborhood of 30+hp. I trust Nick and Andy and hope that I can hear from an actual user soon as to the feel of the car. This is VERY interesting to me now. bigger injectors, better intake and exhaust might just create enough power for me to invest in drag radials!!
 
Whatever happens with pricing, functionability, or usefulness of this product I, for one (and I am sure everyone on this board), appreciate all you guys have done for the mazda community. You guys deserve a break from all these power hungry fools =) Myself included.

Night everyone!
moose
 
So emission will pass, that sounds terrific. Thanks guys awesome. So what's the difference between going to standalone compared to parallel, if the "important" processings are done by the AEM EMS anyway in parallel mode?? What's the advantage of going stand-alone? I mean if you can get the engine management down and so forth with all the functional tuning of a stand-alone with a parallel "piggy-back" ecu. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me the parallel option has more advantages than stand-alone.

Oh well, I guess the Motec isn't for the protege. I guess I'll save that one for my rwd track car.

And once again, thank you guys. Time to start putting those changes into the piggy bank.
 
I am slightly confused.

Basically, if I were to order this, I call up and tell you what i have and what I want to do. Then you configure the whole thing for me, send it out and I'm done?

I've always operated under the assumption that no matter what the base maps are, you need to tune everything for the specific application.

I'm guessing this will still be possible? I tell you what I have, you send out a basic set up for that, then I tune it to get the most out of what I have, right?

Thanks.
 
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