MPI Tuner Anyone?

OK Nick I have an idea.

Can you do a mini Tutorial with screen shots of each screen?

I know that would help with a lot of questions. You dont have to give away trade seacrets, just somthing that will help me make up my mind that I will be able to handle the programming myself.
 
Nick, I'm not doubting your knowledge, bashing your product, or anything, but it doesn't seem possible for the MPI tuner to work with only the stock injectors. Because of open loop...when you just can't modify the O2 sensor reading because it's ignored anyway.

Do you have a way around this? I don't want to install extra injectors, or upgrade the stock injectors.

So, it looks like, for what I want, I have a few choices: Spool's E-manage, Nick's AFC-II, and your MPI tuner (if it can control the stock injectors using the stock MAF).
 
jersey_emt said:
Nick, I'm not doubting your knowledge, bashing your product, or anything, but it doesn't seem possible for the MPI tuner to work with only the stock injectors. Because of open loop...when you just can't modify the O2 sensor reading because it's ignored anyway.

Do you have a way around this? I don't want to install extra injectors, or upgrade the stock injectors.

So, it looks like, for what I want, I have a few choices: Spool's E-manage, Nick's AFC-II, and your MPI tuner (if it can control the stock injectors using the stock MAF).

I did not know that anyone other then us has been able to control the stock MAF. Thanks for letting me know this. Yes we will control the stock injectors plus we can also do about ten other things that they cannot do.

Please let me know if you have any questions at all.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick
 
I really want to get this boost control setup on my car and I am rvery excited to make it happen, as long as the fundage is right..Nick and I are working it out right now so stay posted...

BTW
Not to start a flame, But I would just liek to say KUDOS to Nick for starting a kickass, informational thread...You have finally answered the call from all of these people here like I knew you would..This is what they were looking for from the beginning..GREAT THREAD
 
KzA said:
I really want to get this boost control setup on my car and I am rvery excited to make it happen, as long as the fundage is right..Nick and I are working it out right now so stay posted...

BTW
Not to start a flame, But I would just liek to say KUDOS to Nick for starting a kickass, informational thread...You have finally answered the call from all of these people here like I knew you would..This is what they were looking for from the beginning..GREAT THREAD

The boost control is a done deal already. I know what you need with your set up.

No flames here just facts.

Thanks again


Later.........Nick
 
jersey_emt said:

I don't want to install extra injectors, or upgrade the stock injectors.


I still feel that running extra injectors is the best way to go for bigger power. But I also know that some people do not like this setup. So you will have to say within the range that the stock injectors can work with.

Please let me know if you have any questions at all.

Thanks again

Later............NICK
 
MPNick said:
The O 2 tuning only works in closed loop. In open loop you may need run extra injectors.

I can see how this applies to P5 or MP3 owners, but with the MSP our open loop is already TOO rich, how would extra injectors solve an already rich open loop? What is the recommended way of running an MSP vs running a P5 or MP3?
 
srd555 said:
OK Nick I have an idea.

Can you do a mini Tutorial with screen shots of each screen?

I know that would help with a lot of questions. You dont have to give away trade seacrets, just somthing that will help me make up my mind that I will be able to handle the programming myself.

:D
 
turboge said:
I can see how this applies to P5 or MP3 owners, but with the MSP our open loop is already TOO rich, how would extra injectors solve an already rich open loop? What is the recommended way of running an MSP vs running a P5 or MP3?

It would depend on how much power you are tring to make. If you are going to stay within the limits of the stock injectors, you will not need the extra pair. If you are planning to make big power you will need them.

We have no problems with running rich at all ever. The MSP that ran 13.70s with our system never runs to rich. We tuned his whole fuel curve.

We would tune the MSP with our fuel tuning table only. That car was very easy to dail in. We drove for about an hour the first time out.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick
 
MPNick said:
I still feel that running extra injectors is the best way to go for bigger power.
Corky Bell disagrees with this, as do i. but if you think that's the way to go, then go for it.
 
is there a whay to get rid of the maf sensor ? with youre system or is full stand alone the only whay ? and will the tuner control bigger injectors instead of adding them in ? dose it have a feature that prevents the car from stalling like the afc so we can vent the bov and have the car not stall or buckle ?

thanks,
tom
 
hukster00 said:
is there a whay to get rid of the maf sensor ? with youre system or is full stand alone the only whay ? and will the tuner control bigger injectors instead of adding them in ? dose it have a feature that prevents the car from stalling like the afc so we can vent the bov and have the car not stall or buckle ?

thanks,
tom

Yes we can get rid of the MAF with an added modual that would work along with the MPI Tuner. It would be a big mistake, but we can do it. Yes you can run a BOV with our MPI Tuner and MAF. You would not stall the car after you tune the system right.

Yes we have already use the MPI Tuner with 560cc injectors. I would not use then again, the idle was not as clean as I would have liked. We will be test 450cc very soon, we had hoped to test them last week but it did not happen.


Please let me know if you have any other questions at all.


Thanks again


Later.......Nick
 
jred321 said:
Corky Bell disagrees with this.

What does this mean? To me it means that he has not found a way to get the job done right with extra injectors. I look at it this way. We give you complete control of your fuel, timing and boost. Plus we also do about ten other things that no one else can do for anywhere near the price of the MPI Tuner.

He made the FMU, it was something that was needed back in the darks ages of EFI tuning before people knew much about computers. We stop useing the FMU as soon as a better thing came along, that was with our first MAF system almost 6 years ago. People are still using the FMU units today and they still have the same problems with then, not much control.

Think about how we control fuel and how the FMU does it. We use, tps, rpm, and boost load. They just ramp up the fuel pressure to blast fuel into the engine base on boost only. Why do you think people have problems all of the time with the FMU setup? Not much control at all.

Take a look at some of the dyno charts that are on some of the websites. You will see the stock power pull is nice and smooth, no peaks, or spikes up or down along the way. Then look at the FMU power pull, spikes and drop outs all along the way. You have this because the afr is boucing all over the place. I have stated this before. I have never see one dyno pull that was a clean pull with a FMU controled car, the AFR will never be right for the whole pull.

Running staged injectors is not new, even the oem has used this. We have used this for years, my customer are using them now. I do not no how many times my customers have come on and posted that they love the way their car runs with the extra injectors. People who do not like them are basing their opinion on bad info and not real world facts. If you do not like to run extra injectors you do not have to. If your power will be more then the stock injectors can handle you can run 450cc injectors with my system.

Please let me know if you have any questions at all.

Thanks again


Later.........Nick
 
"Some systems attempt to increase power by adding one or two injectors overall, rather than per cylinder. These injectors are customarily placed in the air tube entering the throttle body and can be pulsed by a small control box based on an rpm and boost-pressure signal. As is the case with increasing fuel pressure, adding injectors is practical only up to about 9 psi. This is not an ideal system, and, if used, care must be exercised in locating the injectors, to achieve equal distribution of fuel to the cylinders in a manifold designed to flow air only. The injectors must also be sized to deliver the fuel required for the desired airflow rates. Ideally, one extra injector per cylinder is required for serious power. Otherwise, consider this a low-boost-power mechanism."
-Maximum Boost

makes sense to me.

there is no doubt that your system is better than an fmu, as they are pretty crude methods themselves and shouldn't be used for any serious power. i have no doubt that extra injectors work, i just don't think it is the best way to go and have yet to see anything to prove otherwise.

and it's not too hard to make more power than the stock injectors can handle, as they're pretty small as is and are getting high in duty cycle in slightly above stock form. if perf gets the s-afc working (since i can get one for pretty cheap) i'm probably going to try to figure out a way to make my dsm 450's work, just to be on the safe side.
 
OK, I see the problems with running less than one extra injector per cylinder. It would be hard to ensure that the extra fuel is delivered evenly to every cylinder, right? Then you could get some running lean and running rich? But if you run staged injectors for every cylinder, are there problems like this? I thought a lot of RX-7s had a set of secondary injectors that come on only when needed. (Then again they don't have cylinders).
 
jred321 said:
"Some systems attempt to increase power by adding one or two injectors overall, rather than per cylinder. These injectors are customarily placed in the air tube entering the throttle body and can be pulsed by a small control box based on an rpm and boost-pressure signal. As is the case with increasing fuel pressure, adding injectors is practical only up to about 9 psi. This is not an ideal system, and, if used, care must be exercised in locating the injectors, to achieve equal distribution of fuel to the cylinders in a manifold designed to flow air only. The injectors must also be sized to deliver the fuel required for the desired airflow rates. Ideally, one extra injector per cylinder is required for serious power. Otherwise, consider this a low-boost-power mechanism."
-Maximum Boost

makes sense to me.

there is no doubt that your system is better than an fmu, as they are pretty crude methods themselves and shouldn't be used for any serious power. i have no doubt that extra injectors work, i just don't think it is the best way to go and have yet to see anything to prove otherwise.

and it's not too hard to make more power than the stock injectors can handle, as they're pretty small as is and are getting high in duty cycle in slightly above stock form. if perf gets the s-afc working (since i can get one for pretty cheap) i'm probably going to try to figure out a way to make my dsm 450's work, just to be on the safe side.

Well we are running upto 16psi on a MSP with out problems. No plugs have gone away, burnt pistons no smoke and no stumbles. We also have a few other people running our system without any problems. I know you are not saying it, you are just reading it from a book

There is the real world where you have people doing it and there is the world of books and what should or should not work. I was also told that it cannot be done. If you run that much boost that the stock injectors are not going to work how are you going to retard the timing?


Thanks again


Later.............Nick
 
If any of you have problems running injectors before the TB, then get an Intake manifold and mount 4 aditional injectors, one on each runner, whats the excuse now?

*hint*
 
MPNick said:
There is the real world where you have people doing it and there is the world of books and what should or should not work. I was also told that it cannot be done. If you run that much boost that the stock injectors are not going to work how are you going to retard the timing?


Thanks again


Later.............Nick
many things will work in the real world, i.e. a manifold with unequal length runners, the camaro turbo kit that puts the turbo at the rear axle, but that doesn't mean that it is the best way to do it. sometimes you have to do things that aren't ideal, and they will work (sometimes with no problems), but if the option exists to do things the correct way and not just the easiest I am going to take that route, even if it may end up costing a little more, but that's just me. i personally don't ever plan on running so much boost that whatever size injectors that are in there will not keep up, and plan to monitor things like this, but this is all in the future as i have no money now (until i get back from australia) and am not sure if i even want to mess with the msp and risk having it down or just wait til i can afford a project car as well and tune that instead.
but this thread isn't about how things should be done or not, it's about what the MPI can do (which will suite many people's needs), so i'll leave it alone
 
igdrasil said:
If any of you have problems running injectors before the TB, then get an Intake manifold and mount 4 aditional injectors, one on each runner, whats the excuse now?

*hint*
There is a big difference between port injection and TB injection.
There is no comparisson to the amount of efficient and CLEAN power that can be made from accuratetly getting the fuel to each individual cylinder.
BTW when companys years ago stayed away form extra injectors in OEM applications , they noticed that EGT's were much higher in certain Paired cylinders inline. It is fact that every cylinder will NOT get the same amount of fuel as the next. BUT does that mean that they are running lean? Maybe for certain turbocharged application guidelines, yes.
 
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